Consenting to Sex

[Raikov]

The law in the UK is quite clear - consent can be withdrawn at any time, including during - and if that happens it is rape.

I've got a question about this. If consent is withdraws during sex, and the guy stops, is it still rape?

It's generally considered that if the guy stopped once consent is withdrawn, it is not legally considered rape.

I would sympathise with any man who did this and then was accused of rape.

Thank you. Now I don't have to call my girlfriends country retarded.

Well I guess that they can still do what some women do in Sweden... accuse the guy of rape after having consented to drunk sex the night before, and regretting who they ended up waking beside in the morning.

Before anyone asks how I know this, the girls is the sister of one of my friends, and she happily exclaimed "I was raped last weekend!" a few days after. I have a feeling most rape-victims don't feel such joy about it. Also, the whole thing was recorded, with her consent on video.

Still, Swedish law said "Yes, this is clearly rape. Now let's fuck up the guys life."

I bet similar things have happened in most countries though. Heh, I remember a girl confessing in the papers that she had lied just to get the money...

 

[Stasisesque]

I
I think Sky News kind is kind of misrepresenting this study though. For example, one quote is:

"46% of men aged 18 to 25 also do not consider it rape if the woman changes her mind during sex"

If I start having sex with someone consensually and halfway through she wants to stop, of course I'll stop immediately. But I wouldn't call that rape. The article is unclear.
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The law in the UK is quite clear - consent can be withdrawn at any time, including during - and if that happens it is rape. 46% of the surveyed men are wrong and need to figure that out in a hurry.

That doesn't make any sense. So a man can be having consensual sex with his wife and if the wife says, "stop", and he stops immediately, it still constitutes rape? Sounds like a good way to get out of a prenuptial agreement, or get your husband in jail. Am I reading you right?

Essentially yes.

According to a multitude of reports and "statistics", the majority of rapes are committed by someone known to the victim, a trusted friend or acquaintance, or boyfriend and even husband (swap pronouns/nouns as needed). Unfortunately, due to this, most DNA evidence is considered void, so it is incredibly difficult to prove guilt. However, if the victim can produce reasonable evidence that she was in fact raped, and not merely having consensual sex, a prosecution can be brought.

HOWEVER, falsely accusing someone of rape is also a crime.

 

[Estocavio]

Personally, i think they should give around consent forms, in which both parties have to mutually consent with video evidence to show the absence of duress, with a third party who is not affiliated with either to back that up.

And lets not be gender biased here shall we

You old romantic!

Well, kidnapping wasnt an option...
You saw nothing
*Coughs*
Well, these days anyone can turn around and accuse you of rape, and how else can you prove your innocence, when the accusation itself can be just as damaging as a sentence?

 

[thespis721]

There are women/men who get drunk for the sole purpose for them to be able to have sex. It's obviously not very healthy. And I agree with the majority that if someone is blackout drunk, you shouldn't have sex with them.

However, I know a few occasions where my girlfriend got drunker then me (not fall down, stupid, uncontrollably drunk) and pounced on me. I wasn't going to say no!

I think there are matters of degrees. There are no extremes in this situations and I think that's where the greyness takes over. What if she's your girlfriend? What if she initiates? What if she is drunk but is able to control herself very well? Why are the laws in reference to women being drunk but men being drunk isn't considered? So on and so on.

FYI, did you know in NY, they tried to pass a law saying that if both parties are drunk, then it is still male on female rape? It got shot down, but not by a lot.

 

[silasbufu]

Personally, i think they should give around consent forms, in which both parties have to mutually consent with video evidence to show the absence of duress, with a third party who is not affiliated with either to back that up.

And lets not be gender biased here shall we

You old romantic!

Well, kidnapping wasnt an option...
You saw nothing
*Coughs*
Well, these days anyone can turn around and accuse you of rape, and how else can you prove your innocence, when the accusation itself can be just as damaging as a sentence?

So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

 

[babinro]

I believe both people need to be in a proper state of mind...going after someone who is drunk or the like is simply taking advantage and is rather pathetic.

What joy you might gain from it is only going to hurt others around you, it is simply not worth it and speaks heavily on what kind of person you are.

 

[SuccessAndBiscuts]

There is also an issue with the playful "no" my girlfriend is a perfect example of that. She will say "no" when she means yes because she wants me to for want of a better term "chase" her a bit.

It does make me feel awkward sometimes cause I'm almost never entirely sure what she means by it until I get a definite response. Am I supposed to be psychic or something?

In my entire sexual history no woman has ever said to me "I consent" but I've never been firmly told no or physically pushed off, generally I take being pulled closer as effective consent, body language not English. Its difficult to know just where the line is, I don't think I'm a rapist but the idea I could be is really unnerving. I wouldn't set out to intentionally harm anyone else.

In summary women need to be more direct with what they mean. Men are not psychic!

(minor light hearted sexism in an attempt to bring the tone back up)

 

[Mathak]

Personally, i think they should give around consent forms, in which both parties have to mutually consent with video evidence to show the absence of duress, with a third party who is not affiliated with either to back that up.

And lets not be gender biased here shall we

You old romantic!

Well, kidnapping wasnt an option...
You saw nothing
*Coughs*
Well, these days anyone can turn around and accuse you of rape, and how else can you prove your innocence, when the accusation itself can be just as damaging as a sentence?

Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

 

[Tipsy Giant]

Personally, i think they should give around consent forms, in which both parties have to mutually consent with video evidence to show the absence of duress, with a third party who is not affiliated with either to back that up.

And lets not be gender biased here shall we

You old romantic!

Well, kidnapping wasnt an option...
You saw nothing
*Coughs*
Well, these days anyone can turn around and accuse you of rape, and how else can you prove your innocence, when the accusation itself can be just as damaging as a sentence?

I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

 

[Mathak]

There is also an issue with the playful "no" my girlfriend is a perfect example of that. She will say "no" when she means yes because she wants me to for want of a better term "chase" her a bit.

It does make me feel awkward sometimes cause I'm almost never entirely sure what she means by it until I get a definite response. Am I supposed to be psychic or something?

For both your sakes, get a safeword. Hopefully you'll never need it, but if a 'no' is misinterpreted it can cause both of you a lot of grief.

 

[Daniel Ferguson]

Why would you want to have sex with someone that's clearly about to fall over due to alcohol consumption? Is anyone that desperate for a quick-one?

I mean, it's far more likely that the drunk will puke all over and let other bodily fluids flow (not the ones you want) during the act, it would be messy and frankly unpleasant.

Now I won 't jump in and say it's because "Oh no, taking advantage of a drunk is so cruel, poor drunkie", it's usually their damn fault if they drank too much and I feel no pity if someone drinks him/herself stupid and then promptly smashes his/her car into a brick-wall, and if they are being taken advantage of it's also partially their fault, like I stated above you'd have to be a really desperate bastard to do someone clearly drunk or incapacitated (and it's basically borderline rape) but it's also the drunk's fault for being a bloody idiot and getting themselves pissed in the first place.

There's nothing amusing or charming about being drunk or raping someone who is drunk, get that through your brainless heads you filthy mainstream teenagers.

Incapacitating = big no. But sorry, if a girl jumps a drunk guy, it's fine, if a guy jumps a drunk girl it's rape? That's just hypocrisy.

If you're worried you'll do something you don't like, don't fucking drink. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the type to get a girl drunk for sex, but for fuck's sake, take some responsibility on yourself, no one's shoving a bottle down your throat.

I drink relatively often and I'm perfectly capable of stopping way before I'd be willing to do something I'd otherwise be unwilling if I wasn't drunk. If you're worried you'll get that drunk, bring a friend along and ask her to keep you from doing something you wouldn't.

Mind you that I don't mean getting her drunk until she's sleeping, that's incapacitation. But if a person is drunk and someone asks them if they wanna have sex and they consent, that's not rape. Blaming alcohol? Don't get that drunk next time.

Pretty much.

Exactly.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

You can't tell me a girl changing her mind after the sex has already happened would be considered rape on the guy's part. Does that mean a girl can accuse you of raping her if you didn't perform to her standards (i.e. didn't cause her to orgasm). If that's true, then the law really needs to be revised.

I mean come on... that's like selling someone a car and then once they drive off deciding you did not want to sell the car so they get labeled a car theft.

 

[Estocavio]

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So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

Not automatically, but keep in mind that employers/employees, family members and the like, are all going to hear about it, and your name will be plastered all over the news.

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Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

While this may be true, how do you know it isnt a case of these false accusations being found to be true due to lack of evidence to the contrary, and thus these statistics showing such results? The point is, you cant really know either way without hard proof, hence the need for very strong evidence of consent.

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I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

If not more severe, due to damages to reputation, as well as legal expenses, etc.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

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So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

Not automatically, but keep in mind that employers/employees, family members and the like, are all going to hear about it, and your name will be plastered all over the news.

snip

snip

snip

Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

While this may be true, how do you know it isnt a case of these false accusations being found to be true due to lack of evidence to the contrary, and thus these statistics showing such results? The point is, you cant really know either way without hard proof, hence the need for very strong evidence of consent.

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I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

If not more severe, due to damages to reputation, as well as legal expenses, etc.

And also making it harder for people who have actually been raped to come forward since they'll think people will just think they're lying as well.

 

[MasterOfWorlds]

Supposedly, if one or both parties happens to be drunk, they lack the ability to consent. At least that's my understanding of the law here in Florida. It can change from state to state, but I imagine that, rape being as serious as it is, that there isn't a whole lot of variance between the states.

I once dated a girl that was schizophrenic and bipolar. I didn't know it at the time, but I had an interest in psychology and had started doing research into those mental disorders. I had come to the conclusion that she had something wrong with her psychologically after we were dating for a bit. Long story short, she DESPERATELY wanted me to be her first. I couldn't do it. I thought about it, because how often does a guy get a chance to have free sex where the girl is begging for it? In the end though, it wouldn't have felt right and I would have felt like I was taking advantage.

I couldn't even have sex with the girl that really wanted to because I thought she lacked the understanding of what was really going to be happening. I wouldn't touch a girl that was drunk or otherwise impaired. I'm not into drugs or alcohol either, so the chances of me being impaired and doing such a thing is very small indeed.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

Personally speaking, while I would never partake in it myself, I do not believe having sex with a girl too drunk to know what she is doing should be considered rape. It is that person's choice to get that drunk, and they should have to pay the consequences for their actions.

Now personally, if someone told me they'd had sex with a drunk girl I would think that was wrong, but I wouldn't go around calling rape.

 

[Estocavio]

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So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

Not automatically, but keep in mind that employers/employees, family members and the like, are all going to hear about it, and your name will be plastered all over the news.

snip

snip

snip

Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

While this may be true, how do you know it isnt a case of these false accusations being found to be true due to lack of evidence to the contrary, and thus these statistics showing such results? The point is, you cant really know either way without hard proof, hence the need for very strong evidence of consent.

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I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

If not more severe, due to damages to reputation, as well as legal expenses, etc.

And also making it harder for people who have actually been raped to come forward since they'll think people will just think they're lying as well.

Thats my point - This is why you need these consent forms with video evidence i mentioned. That way, if you dont have one, its rape. Problem solved.

But just think, its true that it would make it harder for them to come forward, but what if the accusation is false, is proven true due to lack of contrary evidence, and someones life is ruined over some liar?

 

[Gigano]

Having sex with someone who is incapacitated and unable to verbally or physically resist would generally be a crime on its own (if not necessarily under the ordinary article for rape). As for consent, it can be retracted at any time, and continuing beyond that point would undoubtedly be illegal.

Just what "incapacitated" entails in a legal (or ethical) context is of course up for debate. Not any and all consumption of alcohol will automatically incapacitate someone to give a legally valid consent, and the limit here would probably be a fairly high and obvious level of intoxication. Obviously, the ethical line could be drawn a lot sooner. Specific context and the previous events leading up to the occurrence itself would play into the interpretation as well in both regards. Ultimately, it'll be a question of whether the burden of proof has been lifted in the eyes of the court.

Personally, I'd never make advancements on anyone whom I did not believe to be in a state fit to also negotiate a legally binding contract with me.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

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So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

Not automatically, but keep in mind that employers/employees, family members and the like, are all going to hear about it, and your name will be plastered all over the news.

snip

snip

snip

Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

While this may be true, how do you know it isnt a case of these false accusations being found to be true due to lack of evidence to the contrary, and thus these statistics showing such results? The point is, you cant really know either way without hard proof, hence the need for very strong evidence of consent.

snip

snip

snip

I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

If not more severe, due to damages to reputation, as well as legal expenses, etc.

And also making it harder for people who have actually been raped to come forward since they'll think people will just think they're lying as well.

Thats my point - This is why you need these consent forms with video evidence i mentioned. That way, if you dont have one, its rape. Problem solved.

But just think, its true that it would make it harder for them to come forward, but what if the accusation is false, is proven true due to lack of contrary evidence, and someones life is ruined over some liar?

Well how do you prove you didn't rape someone?