Consenting to Sex

[Estocavio]

Personally, i think they should give around consent forms, in which both parties have to mutually consent with video evidence to show the absence of duress, with a third party who is not affiliated with either to back that up.

And lets not be gender biased here shall we

You old romantic!

Well, kidnapping wasnt an option...
You saw nothing
*Coughs*
Well, these days anyone can turn around and accuse you of rape, and how else can you prove your innocence, when the accusation itself can be just as damaging as a sentence?

 

[thespis721]

There are women/men who get drunk for the sole purpose for them to be able to have sex. It's obviously not very healthy. And I agree with the majority that if someone is blackout drunk, you shouldn't have sex with them.

However, I know a few occasions where my girlfriend got drunker then me (not fall down, stupid, uncontrollably drunk) and pounced on me. I wasn't going to say no!

I think there are matters of degrees. There are no extremes in this situations and I think that's where the greyness takes over. What if she's your girlfriend? What if she initiates? What if she is drunk but is able to control herself very well? Why are the laws in reference to women being drunk but men being drunk isn't considered? So on and so on.

FYI, did you know in NY, they tried to pass a law saying that if both parties are drunk, then it is still male on female rape? It got shot down, but not by a lot.

 

[silasbufu]

Personally, i think they should give around consent forms, in which both parties have to mutually consent with video evidence to show the absence of duress, with a third party who is not affiliated with either to back that up.

And lets not be gender biased here shall we

You old romantic!

Well, kidnapping wasnt an option...
You saw nothing
*Coughs*
Well, these days anyone can turn around and accuse you of rape, and how else can you prove your innocence, when the accusation itself can be just as damaging as a sentence?

So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

 

[babinro]

I believe both people need to be in a proper state of mind...going after someone who is drunk or the like is simply taking advantage and is rather pathetic.

What joy you might gain from it is only going to hurt others around you, it is simply not worth it and speaks heavily on what kind of person you are.

 

[SuccessAndBiscuts]

There is also an issue with the playful "no" my girlfriend is a perfect example of that. She will say "no" when she means yes because she wants me to for want of a better term "chase" her a bit.

It does make me feel awkward sometimes cause I'm almost never entirely sure what she means by it until I get a definite response. Am I supposed to be psychic or something?

In my entire sexual history no woman has ever said to me "I consent" but I've never been firmly told no or physically pushed off, generally I take being pulled closer as effective consent, body language not English. Its difficult to know just where the line is, I don't think I'm a rapist but the idea I could be is really unnerving. I wouldn't set out to intentionally harm anyone else.

In summary women need to be more direct with what they mean. Men are not psychic!

(minor light hearted sexism in an attempt to bring the tone back up)

 

[Mathak]

Personally, i think they should give around consent forms, in which both parties have to mutually consent with video evidence to show the absence of duress, with a third party who is not affiliated with either to back that up.

And lets not be gender biased here shall we

You old romantic!

Well, kidnapping wasnt an option...
You saw nothing
*Coughs*
Well, these days anyone can turn around and accuse you of rape, and how else can you prove your innocence, when the accusation itself can be just as damaging as a sentence?

Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

 

[Tipsy Giant]

Personally, i think they should give around consent forms, in which both parties have to mutually consent with video evidence to show the absence of duress, with a third party who is not affiliated with either to back that up.

And lets not be gender biased here shall we

You old romantic!

Well, kidnapping wasnt an option...
You saw nothing
*Coughs*
Well, these days anyone can turn around and accuse you of rape, and how else can you prove your innocence, when the accusation itself can be just as damaging as a sentence?

I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

 

[Mathak]

There is also an issue with the playful "no" my girlfriend is a perfect example of that. She will say "no" when she means yes because she wants me to for want of a better term "chase" her a bit.

It does make me feel awkward sometimes cause I'm almost never entirely sure what she means by it until I get a definite response. Am I supposed to be psychic or something?

For both your sakes, get a safeword. Hopefully you'll never need it, but if a 'no' is misinterpreted it can cause both of you a lot of grief.

 

[Daniel Ferguson]

Why would you want to have sex with someone that's clearly about to fall over due to alcohol consumption? Is anyone that desperate for a quick-one?

I mean, it's far more likely that the drunk will puke all over and let other bodily fluids flow (not the ones you want) during the act, it would be messy and frankly unpleasant.

Now I won 't jump in and say it's because "Oh no, taking advantage of a drunk is so cruel, poor drunkie", it's usually their damn fault if they drank too much and I feel no pity if someone drinks him/herself stupid and then promptly smashes his/her car into a brick-wall, and if they are being taken advantage of it's also partially their fault, like I stated above you'd have to be a really desperate bastard to do someone clearly drunk or incapacitated (and it's basically borderline rape) but it's also the drunk's fault for being a bloody idiot and getting themselves pissed in the first place.

There's nothing amusing or charming about being drunk or raping someone who is drunk, get that through your brainless heads you filthy mainstream teenagers.

Incapacitating = big no. But sorry, if a girl jumps a drunk guy, it's fine, if a guy jumps a drunk girl it's rape? That's just hypocrisy.

If you're worried you'll do something you don't like, don't fucking drink. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the type to get a girl drunk for sex, but for fuck's sake, take some responsibility on yourself, no one's shoving a bottle down your throat.

I drink relatively often and I'm perfectly capable of stopping way before I'd be willing to do something I'd otherwise be unwilling if I wasn't drunk. If you're worried you'll get that drunk, bring a friend along and ask her to keep you from doing something you wouldn't.

Mind you that I don't mean getting her drunk until she's sleeping, that's incapacitation. But if a person is drunk and someone asks them if they wanna have sex and they consent, that's not rape. Blaming alcohol? Don't get that drunk next time.

Pretty much.

Exactly.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

You can't tell me a girl changing her mind after the sex has already happened would be considered rape on the guy's part. Does that mean a girl can accuse you of raping her if you didn't perform to her standards (i.e. didn't cause her to orgasm). If that's true, then the law really needs to be revised.

I mean come on... that's like selling someone a car and then once they drive off deciding you did not want to sell the car so they get labeled a car theft.

 

[Estocavio]

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So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

Not automatically, but keep in mind that employers/employees, family members and the like, are all going to hear about it, and your name will be plastered all over the news.

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Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

While this may be true, how do you know it isnt a case of these false accusations being found to be true due to lack of evidence to the contrary, and thus these statistics showing such results? The point is, you cant really know either way without hard proof, hence the need for very strong evidence of consent.

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I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

If not more severe, due to damages to reputation, as well as legal expenses, etc.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

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So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

Not automatically, but keep in mind that employers/employees, family members and the like, are all going to hear about it, and your name will be plastered all over the news.

snip

snip

snip

Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

While this may be true, how do you know it isnt a case of these false accusations being found to be true due to lack of evidence to the contrary, and thus these statistics showing such results? The point is, you cant really know either way without hard proof, hence the need for very strong evidence of consent.

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I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

If not more severe, due to damages to reputation, as well as legal expenses, etc.

And also making it harder for people who have actually been raped to come forward since they'll think people will just think they're lying as well.

 

[MasterOfWorlds]

Supposedly, if one or both parties happens to be drunk, they lack the ability to consent. At least that's my understanding of the law here in Florida. It can change from state to state, but I imagine that, rape being as serious as it is, that there isn't a whole lot of variance between the states.

I once dated a girl that was schizophrenic and bipolar. I didn't know it at the time, but I had an interest in psychology and had started doing research into those mental disorders. I had come to the conclusion that she had something wrong with her psychologically after we were dating for a bit. Long story short, she DESPERATELY wanted me to be her first. I couldn't do it. I thought about it, because how often does a guy get a chance to have free sex where the girl is begging for it? In the end though, it wouldn't have felt right and I would have felt like I was taking advantage.

I couldn't even have sex with the girl that really wanted to because I thought she lacked the understanding of what was really going to be happening. I wouldn't touch a girl that was drunk or otherwise impaired. I'm not into drugs or alcohol either, so the chances of me being impaired and doing such a thing is very small indeed.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

Personally speaking, while I would never partake in it myself, I do not believe having sex with a girl too drunk to know what she is doing should be considered rape. It is that person's choice to get that drunk, and they should have to pay the consequences for their actions.

Now personally, if someone told me they'd had sex with a drunk girl I would think that was wrong, but I wouldn't go around calling rape.

 

[Estocavio]

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snip

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So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

Not automatically, but keep in mind that employers/employees, family members and the like, are all going to hear about it, and your name will be plastered all over the news.

snip

snip

snip

Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

While this may be true, how do you know it isnt a case of these false accusations being found to be true due to lack of evidence to the contrary, and thus these statistics showing such results? The point is, you cant really know either way without hard proof, hence the need for very strong evidence of consent.

snip

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I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

If not more severe, due to damages to reputation, as well as legal expenses, etc.

And also making it harder for people who have actually been raped to come forward since they'll think people will just think they're lying as well.

Thats my point - This is why you need these consent forms with video evidence i mentioned. That way, if you dont have one, its rape. Problem solved.

But just think, its true that it would make it harder for them to come forward, but what if the accusation is false, is proven true due to lack of contrary evidence, and someones life is ruined over some liar?

 

[Gigano]

Having sex with someone who is incapacitated and unable to verbally or physically resist would generally be a crime on its own (if not necessarily under the ordinary article for rape). As for consent, it can be retracted at any time, and continuing beyond that point would undoubtedly be illegal.

Just what "incapacitated" entails in a legal (or ethical) context is of course up for debate. Not any and all consumption of alcohol will automatically incapacitate someone to give a legally valid consent, and the limit here would probably be a fairly high and obvious level of intoxication. Obviously, the ethical line could be drawn a lot sooner. Specific context and the previous events leading up to the occurrence itself would play into the interpretation as well in both regards. Ultimately, it'll be a question of whether the burden of proof has been lifted in the eyes of the court.

Personally, I'd never make advancements on anyone whom I did not believe to be in a state fit to also negotiate a legally binding contract with me.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

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snip

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So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

Not automatically, but keep in mind that employers/employees, family members and the like, are all going to hear about it, and your name will be plastered all over the news.

snip

snip

snip

Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

While this may be true, how do you know it isnt a case of these false accusations being found to be true due to lack of evidence to the contrary, and thus these statistics showing such results? The point is, you cant really know either way without hard proof, hence the need for very strong evidence of consent.

snip

snip

snip

I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

If not more severe, due to damages to reputation, as well as legal expenses, etc.

And also making it harder for people who have actually been raped to come forward since they'll think people will just think they're lying as well.

Thats my point - This is why you need these consent forms with video evidence i mentioned. That way, if you dont have one, its rape. Problem solved.

But just think, its true that it would make it harder for them to come forward, but what if the accusation is false, is proven true due to lack of contrary evidence, and someones life is ruined over some liar?

Well how do you prove you didn't rape someone?

 

[Estocavio]

snip

snip

snip

So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

Not automatically, but keep in mind that employers/employees, family members and the like, are all going to hear about it, and your name will be plastered all over the news.

snip

snip

snip

Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

While this may be true, how do you know it isnt a case of these false accusations being found to be true due to lack of evidence to the contrary, and thus these statistics showing such results? The point is, you cant really know either way without hard proof, hence the need for very strong evidence of consent.

snip

snip

snip

I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

If not more severe, due to damages to reputation, as well as legal expenses, etc.

And also making it harder for people who have actually been raped to come forward since they'll think people will just think they're lying as well.

Thats my point - This is why you need these consent forms with video evidence i mentioned. That way, if you dont have one, its rape. Problem solved.

But just think, its true that it would make it harder for them to come forward, but what if the accusation is false, is proven true due to lack of contrary evidence, and someones life is ruined over some liar?

Well how do you prove you didn't rape someone?

There you go, now your starting to understand!
It isnt exactly easy. Say you sleep with your girlfriend one night, then you wake up the next morning, and shes speaking to some cop about how you threatened her with a knife thats now conveniently next to you and 'made' her have sex with you? Besides saying "Im innocent" theres not enough you can do.
And if they dont take these accusations seriously, then people who have actually been raped get the sharp end.
If they take it more seriously than they do now, falsely accused people get the sharp end.

There are two winning solutions:
A; Do not participate in sexual activity.
B; Get undeniable proof of consent, and consent for a recording of the whole event to avoid allegations of excessive force, assault, 'changing her mind', or anything else.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

snip

snip

snip

So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

Not automatically, but keep in mind that employers/employees, family members and the like, are all going to hear about it, and your name will be plastered all over the news.

snip

snip

snip

Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

While this may be true, how do you know it isnt a case of these false accusations being found to be true due to lack of evidence to the contrary, and thus these statistics showing such results? The point is, you cant really know either way without hard proof, hence the need for very strong evidence of consent.

snip

snip

snip

I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

If not more severe, due to damages to reputation, as well as legal expenses, etc.

And also making it harder for people who have actually been raped to come forward since they'll think people will just think they're lying as well.

Thats my point - This is why you need these consent forms with video evidence i mentioned. That way, if you dont have one, its rape. Problem solved.

But just think, its true that it would make it harder for them to come forward, but what if the accusation is false, is proven true due to lack of contrary evidence, and someones life is ruined over some liar?

Well how do you prove you didn't rape someone?

There you go, now your starting to understand!
It isnt exactly easy. Say you sleep with your girlfriend one night, then you wake up the next morning, and shes speaking to some cop about how you threatened her with a knife thats now conveniently next to you and 'made' her have sex with you? Besides saying "Im innocent" theres not enough you can do.
And if they dont take these accusations seriously, then people who have actually been raped get the sharp end.
If they take it more seriously than they do now, falsely accused people get the sharp end.

There are two winning solutions:
A; Do not participate in sexual activity.
B; Get undeniable proof of consent, and consent for a recording of the whole event to avoid allegations of excessive force, assault, 'changing her mind', or anything else.

Even if you get written consent, she can still turn around and claim she "changed her mind". This is one of the major reasons I have yet to have sex (aside from my social akwardness and inability to.. you know... talk to women).

 

[Oyster_Boy]

I refuse to have relations of any kind with someone who is drunk or incapcitated.

I assume you're excluding people in a relationship from this? The drunk bit anyway, I mean, there were plenty of times when my ex and I (she wasn't my ex at the time obviously) came back from a night out, both drunk and had sex. Surely nothing wrong with that?

Anyway back on topic; I can't imagine how much it must suck to be halfway through as it were and have the other party change their mind and say no. Obviously that's no excuse for not stopping or whatever, but can you imagine just how much that would suck...

I don't understand the ignorance of some people, if someone says no, and they don't want to have sex with you, and then you force them to... It's rape... Not a very complicated principal.