Consenting to Sex

[Estocavio]

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So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

Not automatically, but keep in mind that employers/employees, family members and the like, are all going to hear about it, and your name will be plastered all over the news.

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Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

While this may be true, how do you know it isnt a case of these false accusations being found to be true due to lack of evidence to the contrary, and thus these statistics showing such results? The point is, you cant really know either way without hard proof, hence the need for very strong evidence of consent.

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I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

If not more severe, due to damages to reputation, as well as legal expenses, etc.

And also making it harder for people who have actually been raped to come forward since they'll think people will just think they're lying as well.

Thats my point - This is why you need these consent forms with video evidence i mentioned. That way, if you dont have one, its rape. Problem solved.

But just think, its true that it would make it harder for them to come forward, but what if the accusation is false, is proven true due to lack of contrary evidence, and someones life is ruined over some liar?

Well how do you prove you didn't rape someone?

There you go, now your starting to understand!
It isnt exactly easy. Say you sleep with your girlfriend one night, then you wake up the next morning, and shes speaking to some cop about how you threatened her with a knife thats now conveniently next to you and 'made' her have sex with you? Besides saying "Im innocent" theres not enough you can do.
And if they dont take these accusations seriously, then people who have actually been raped get the sharp end.
If they take it more seriously than they do now, falsely accused people get the sharp end.

There are two winning solutions:
A; Do not participate in sexual activity.
B; Get undeniable proof of consent, and consent for a recording of the whole event to avoid allegations of excessive force, assault, 'changing her mind', or anything else.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

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So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

Not automatically, but keep in mind that employers/employees, family members and the like, are all going to hear about it, and your name will be plastered all over the news.

snip

snip

snip

Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

While this may be true, how do you know it isnt a case of these false accusations being found to be true due to lack of evidence to the contrary, and thus these statistics showing such results? The point is, you cant really know either way without hard proof, hence the need for very strong evidence of consent.

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I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

If not more severe, due to damages to reputation, as well as legal expenses, etc.

And also making it harder for people who have actually been raped to come forward since they'll think people will just think they're lying as well.

Thats my point - This is why you need these consent forms with video evidence i mentioned. That way, if you dont have one, its rape. Problem solved.

But just think, its true that it would make it harder for them to come forward, but what if the accusation is false, is proven true due to lack of contrary evidence, and someones life is ruined over some liar?

Well how do you prove you didn't rape someone?

There you go, now your starting to understand!
It isnt exactly easy. Say you sleep with your girlfriend one night, then you wake up the next morning, and shes speaking to some cop about how you threatened her with a knife thats now conveniently next to you and 'made' her have sex with you? Besides saying "Im innocent" theres not enough you can do.
And if they dont take these accusations seriously, then people who have actually been raped get the sharp end.
If they take it more seriously than they do now, falsely accused people get the sharp end.

There are two winning solutions:
A; Do not participate in sexual activity.
B; Get undeniable proof of consent, and consent for a recording of the whole event to avoid allegations of excessive force, assault, 'changing her mind', or anything else.

Even if you get written consent, she can still turn around and claim she "changed her mind". This is one of the major reasons I have yet to have sex (aside from my social akwardness and inability to.. you know... talk to women).

 

[Oyster_Boy]

I refuse to have relations of any kind with someone who is drunk or incapcitated.

I assume you're excluding people in a relationship from this? The drunk bit anyway, I mean, there were plenty of times when my ex and I (she wasn't my ex at the time obviously) came back from a night out, both drunk and had sex. Surely nothing wrong with that?

Anyway back on topic; I can't imagine how much it must suck to be halfway through as it were and have the other party change their mind and say no. Obviously that's no excuse for not stopping or whatever, but can you imagine just how much that would suck...

I don't understand the ignorance of some people, if someone says no, and they don't want to have sex with you, and then you force them to... It's rape... Not a very complicated principal.

 

[Something Amyss]

Eh, one of the things about a guy who is too drunk... it is more than likely he will be unable to... maintain the...
Yeah. One of the things about being drunk. It doesn't affect us girls, though. Which is why, I suppose, some men aim to get us drunk...

You'd be surprised how resilient male anatomy can be, though. Or maybe not, but probably.

 

[Estocavio]

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So if a woman cries rape with absolutely no form of evidence (even medical), then a man would automaticaly go to jail?
I find that pretty weird.

Not automatically, but keep in mind that employers/employees, family members and the like, are all going to hear about it, and your name will be plastered all over the news.

snip

snip

snip

Note that while yes, technically anyone can accuse anyone of rape, statistically false rape reports do not occur any more than, say, false car theft reports.

While this may be true, how do you know it isnt a case of these false accusations being found to be true due to lack of evidence to the contrary, and thus these statistics showing such results? The point is, you cant really know either way without hard proof, hence the need for very strong evidence of consent.

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I totally agree, the punishment for lying about rape should be as severe as the punishment for rape

If not more severe, due to damages to reputation, as well as legal expenses, etc.

And also making it harder for people who have actually been raped to come forward since they'll think people will just think they're lying as well.

Thats my point - This is why you need these consent forms with video evidence i mentioned. That way, if you dont have one, its rape. Problem solved.

But just think, its true that it would make it harder for them to come forward, but what if the accusation is false, is proven true due to lack of contrary evidence, and someones life is ruined over some liar?

Well how do you prove you didn't rape someone?

There you go, now your starting to understand!
It isnt exactly easy. Say you sleep with your girlfriend one night, then you wake up the next morning, and shes speaking to some cop about how you threatened her with a knife thats now conveniently next to you and 'made' her have sex with you? Besides saying "Im innocent" theres not enough you can do.
And if they dont take these accusations seriously, then people who have actually been raped get the sharp end.
If they take it more seriously than they do now, falsely accused people get the sharp end.

There are two winning solutions:
A; Do not participate in sexual activity.
B; Get undeniable proof of consent, and consent for a recording of the whole event to avoid allegations of excessive force, assault, 'changing her mind', or anything else.

Even if you get written consent, she can still turn around and claim she "changed her mind". This is one of the major reasons I have yet to have sex (aside from my social akwardness and inability to.. you know... talk to women).

Then your doing the right thing - Im glad we've stated the same conclusion from this

 

[MelasZepheos_v1legacy]

I think you need consent, but where to draw the line on that consent can get very difficult.

The problem I have is that for me any encounters have been with girls I knew, so I knew them well enough to know when they were too drunk to understand what they were doing, and when they were just drunk enough to have lowered their inhibitions to the point where it was what they really wanted, not because they wanted to feel good abuot themselves.

My other concern is that I don't drink, so whenever I'm with a girl who does I immediately feel skeezy just because I always feel like I'm taking advantage, even if I've been assured while the girl was stone-cold sober that I'm not. (A girl once told me before getting drunk that she liked me, got a little drunk and wanted to sleep with me, and I still couldn't do it. We ended up going out and I had a huge mental block about the whole thing.)

 

[Hosker]

83% of statistics are made up.

 

[OrokuSaki]

Well remember, context does count. For example: I would have sex with a drunk girl who is A.) My girlfriend whom I have had sex with before (first time MUST NOT be drunk), because really what would she care? Or B.) A very close friend of mine who EXPLICITLY ASKS to be had sex with. Note that in the second case the phrase "Stop" means stop. In the first case "Stop" could really mean anything, I have no idea what goes on in that woman's head sometimes.
But absolute strangers who are intoxicated are a no, regardless of situation.

 

[tharglet]

I can see it being very difficult to draw the line - how incapacitated is too incapacitated?
The example given in the article definitely seemed to be a definite rape, and not one of the "is it rape?" scenarios. If a woman is drunk to the point of being less inhibited, but not the completely oblivious stage, is that too far or not? You don't know if said woman is going to regret it in the morning or not. Neither, maybe, does she.
(For me, if I'm going to do it as drunk as I get, there's a high chance I'd do it sober too, but I know I'm a pretty rare occurrence for that)
Some people go out to get drunk and have sex, which confuses the issue even more. Not my cup of tea, but I can see it blurring the line of what is acceptable and what is not. When I was at uni, there were nightclubs well renowned for being "hooking up" places. Consequently I didn't go to those places. (OK, I ended up having to follow a bunch of acquaintances to one once, but I left before they did in the end, because I couldn't stand being there with them).

 

[Gamegodtre]

Personally, i think they should give around consent forms, in which both parties have to mutually consent with video evidence to show the absence of duress, with a third party who is not affiliated with either to back that up.

And lets not be gender biased here shall we

i already do that for various reasons like i saw on the Chappelles show years ago and though it was a good idea for one

 

[CoL0sS]

I'm totally against using drunk women, but if it's consensual I don't see a problem. But I don't understand what does it mean if she changes her mind afterwards. Lets say, morning after, she realizes that it was a mistake, she can still accuse the guy of a rape? In that case I'd say she needs to take responsibilities for her actions (this also applies for guys). But monsters like the guy from that story in the survey deserve to go to jail, get raped by huge men and then burn in a special circle of hell. However, it's troublesome how many guys get away with rape.

 

[Kouen]

Incapacitating = big no. But sorry, if a girl jumps a drunk guy, it's fine, if a guy jumps a drunk girl it's rape? That's just hypocrisy.

If you're worried you'll do something you don't like, don't fucking drink. Don't get me wrong, I'm not the type to get a girl drunk for sex, but for fuck's sake, take some responsibility on yourself, no one's shoving a bottle down your throat.

Mind you that I don't mean getting her drunk until she's sleeping, that's incapacitation. But if a person is drunk and someone asks them if they wanna have sex and they consent, that's not rape. Blaming alcohol? Don't get that drunk next time.

This basically xD still in society things only work one way Men and Women in sexual and work places and White people and black people in most other things. I'm not raciest or sexist and just wonder can we all just get along and stop yelling foul xD

I'm sure theres true cases n all that but ya it seems that rape and sexual harassment is the trump card for some women as much as racism and discrimination is for people like Al Sharpton.

My Problem is it never works both ways, I Just hope one year the human race will trully be equal without half of this bs.

and as for me personally I drink till somewhat tipsy but never plastered and wouldn't take advantage of a girl who was intoxicated although thats probably not going to happen since I have a girlfriend anyways going on a 5 year relationship!

 

[rokkolpo]

I don't care much, it's just sex.

if you get drunk you have the chance to wake up in someone else's bed.
It's your own damn fault.

personally I wouldn't.
but I can't speak for the drunk me.

 

[SuccessAndBiscuts]

There is also an issue with the playful "no" my girlfriend is a perfect example of that. She will say "no" when she means yes because she wants me to for want of a better term "chase" her a bit.

It does make me feel awkward sometimes cause I'm almost never entirely sure what she means by it until I get a definite response. Am I supposed to be psychic or something?

For both your sakes, get a safeword. Hopefully you'll never need it, but if a 'no' is misinterpreted it can cause both of you a lot of grief.

Thought about bringing it up but when I get a definite response it tends to be very definite, no mistaking those signals, so I guess its more like sexual harassment than rape. Because I always wait for the response.

 

[Valksy]

You can't tell me a girl changing her mind after the sex has already happened would be considered rape on the guy's part. Does that mean a girl can accuse you of raping her if you didn't perform to her standards (i.e. didn't cause her to orgasm). If that's true, then the law really needs to be revised.

I mean come on... that's like selling someone a car and then once they drive off deciding you did not want to sell the car so they get labeled a car theft.

After the fact? No, it doesn't become rape because at the time there was consent. During, it can become rape if she tells you to stop and you don't.

 

[Flare Phoenix]

You can't tell me a girl changing her mind after the sex has already happened would be considered rape on the guy's part. Does that mean a girl can accuse you of raping her if you didn't perform to her standards (i.e. didn't cause her to orgasm). If that's true, then the law really needs to be revised.

I mean come on... that's like selling someone a car and then once they drive off deciding you did not want to sell the car so they get labeled a car theft.

After the fact? No, it doesn't become rape because at the time there was consent. During, it can become rape if she tells you to stop and you don't.

There was a post a bit further back that said in the UK a girl consenting to sex and then changing her mind after the sex has already taken place counts as the guy having raped the girl. So basically:

Guy: Do you want to have sex?
Girl: Yeah sure.
*They have sex and finish*
Girl: *putting pants back on* You know what... I changed my mind.

Apparantly that is considered rape if that post is to be believed.

 

[Valksy]

There is also an issue with the playful "no" my girlfriend is a perfect example of that. She will say "no" when she means yes because she wants me to for want of a better term "chase" her a bit.

It does make me feel awkward sometimes cause I'm almost never entirely sure what she means by it until I get a definite response. Am I supposed to be psychic or something?

For both your sakes, get a safeword. Hopefully you'll never need it, but if a 'no' is misinterpreted it can cause both of you a lot of grief.

Thought about bringing it up but when I get a definite response it tends to be very definite, no mistaking those signals, so I guess its more like sexual harassment than rape. Because I always wait for the response.

From the perspective of UK law

There is also an issue with the playful "no" my girlfriend is a perfect example of that. She will say "no" when she means yes because she wants me to for want of a better term "chase" her a bit.

It does make me feel awkward sometimes cause I'm almost never entirely sure what she means by it until I get a definite response. Am I supposed to be psychic or something?

For both your sakes, get a safeword. Hopefully you'll never need it, but if a 'no' is misinterpreted it can cause both of you a lot of grief.

Thought about bringing it up but when I get a definite response it tends to be very definite, no mistaking those signals, so I guess its more like sexual harassment than rape. Because I always wait for the response.

That's a tricky one. I suspect that it would come down to jury finding of whether there was genuine consent or not or whether your reasonable belief of consent was...well...reasonable.

Loopholes are always written in to law. In the UK we use the term "reasonable" a lot, but it is never actually defined in the legislation. It is usually measured by what the "reasonable man on the Clapham omnibus" would think. I couldn't say what the jury finding of 12 so-called reasonalble people would be if she said no when she meant yes 49 times before but on the 50th she actually meant no.

That said, if I was you then I would want the rules made pretty clear. There is a reason that the safe word concept was born.

 

[Valksy]

You can't tell me a girl changing her mind after the sex has already happened would be considered rape on the guy's part. Does that mean a girl can accuse you of raping her if you didn't perform to her standards (i.e. didn't cause her to orgasm). If that's true, then the law really needs to be revised.

I mean come on... that's like selling someone a car and then once they drive off deciding you did not want to sell the car so they get labeled a car theft.

After the fact? No, it doesn't become rape because at the time there was consent. During, it can become rape if she tells you to stop and you don't.

There was a post a bit further back that said in the UK a girl consenting to sex and then changing her mind after the sex has already taken place counts as the guy having raped the girl. So basically:

Guy: Do you want to have sex?
Girl: Yeah sure.
*They have sex and finish*
Girl: *putting pants back on* You know what... I changed my mind.

Apparantly that is considered rape if that post is to be believed.

I had a look back at the post and that person is Australian and I am not familiar with that law (and in fairness, I got my LLB in British law years ago). I also don't know where you are from so...it is hard to say.

The specific rape law in the UK as of 2003 is:

1)A person (A) commits an offence if?

(a)he intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of another person (B) with his penis,

(b)B does not consent to the penetration, and

(c)A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2)Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents.

So if the woman consents to the penetration then according to 1(b) rape has not occurred. I find the notion of retrospective withdrawal of consent to be a bit mind-boggling. Before or during the penetration is the bit that matters by my (admittedly very rusty and not at all a legal professional) reading of the law.

 

[TheJim]

As someone who is brutally honest, extremely vain, and with strong principles, who likes parties and getting drunk, I think I am perfect to give commentary on this particular article.

I like to go out and get drunk. To varying degrees. Sometimes I'll go out, with the intention of having one or two drinks, and have a lot more, and sometimes I'll go out with the intention of getting absolutely shit faced, and do just that. The key thing is it's my decision and I like to think I am in control of my actions.

There are loads of people like me, who go out and get drunk and get into situations where they might be presented with the opportunity to hook up with someone, and then have sex. Just because alcohol is involved, doesn't mean that either party is unable to give consent. There is, however, a line to draw.

I think this is quite an easy line to draw. If a person can reply with a positive "yes" to the question "are you sure you want to have sex with me?" then that is very clear consent, and it's a question I always ask.

Another point, at least for me, is that I like to know, and be told, that I'm good in bed, so sex for me is about giving the girl really good orgasms and as many as possible (hence the vanity comment) because it increases my chances of getting laid with her friends in the future if I have a reputation for being good (and I also work out a lot so "he looks good naked" is also helpful). so, if a girl is too drunk to enjoy sex, it's a turn off for me instantly.

But as I said, the line is easy to draw. If they give an incoherent response, or an indirect response, it's better to be safe than sorry and call it off. I personally think that rape is one of the most disgusting things possible, and very damaging even in the long term. Rape should be punishable by rape. But since it's so disgusting, false accusations can be almost as damaging in their own right.

I had a friend who had sex with his ex with very little, if any, alcohol involved, and when he explained a couple of days later that he didnt want to recommit to her, she decided she'd been raped. The charges were dropped, but it seriously hurt his reputation.

Luckily, the way it works in the UK justice system is that the person making the accusation has to prove it, rather than the defendant having to DISPROVE it. There can be no conviction if there is reasonable doubt.

I'm really rambling here so I'll sum it up.

By all means, go out, get drunk, have (safe) sex. It's loads of fun and you're only young once, but know your own limits (know how much you can drink and still definitively give or reject consent) and make sure the other party consents. Use common sense. If there's any doubt, better safe than sorry, and just don't do it.

Jim