"Contrarian" Gamers Suck Says Treyarch

Watcheroftrends

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Therumancer said:
Watcheroftrends said:
I think a lot of people feel like they are "above" other gamers by being more discerning when it comes to the big name titles like Black Ops. There's this idea that their opinion, even if it goes against the majority, is right.

I think it's an issue of authenticity. Call of Duty probably seems like a sell-out by now; it's like a summer blockbuster movie that nobody will be watching come next summer, let alone a few years down the road. It's purpose is to make money - there's nothing unique "being said" or revolutionary being done by Call of Duty. In this sense, the series' games are "bad". (I would like to note that, in the case of call of duty, it's the idea that the title can be replaced in the future rather than be timeless like Zelda, Half Life, etc.)

Thus, these contrarian gamers have a legitimate reason to complain. Series like Call of Duty are making it impossible for developers with unique ideas to compete. This is compounded by the ridiculous amount of resources required to get a AAA video game into production. In fact, I would argue that it's more difficult for a unique video game to make it to market than it is for a new band. Think of Call of Duty as the Nickel Back (or whatever generic, overly popular band you likely hate) of gaming.

And yet, Call of Duty is still pretty damn fun. It gets the job done so well that it's absurd to complain. The reality is also that complaining won't likely ever change the core economics of the risk of a games "uniqueness" to it's ability to make money. It's pointless, in short, to think the minority of us who are contrarians can get the developers to alter the game to a satisfiable extent. And yet we're not wrong, but, from a business aspect, ignoring us is probably right on the developers part.

The problem here is that the industry brings this kind of thing upon themselves, largely from being corrupt, greedy, and arrogant. Understand this is an industry that does things dancing on the edge of legality as a matter of course. You'll notice that with the gas companies they are under constant federal investigation nowadays for things like price fixing (everyone setting the same prices, within a cent or two of each other, rather than them directly competing to set the lowest prices they can while making a profit). You'll notice that all new games cost the same $60, whether they cost two million or twenty million dollars to develop. On top of this rather than directly competing with each other, they set release dates so that the games have as little direct competition as possible at a given time, that way nobody tries to undercut one another, and everyone can keep the same set price. We're recently seeing this with games like "Homefront" having it's release date pushed forward so it won't compete directly with "Dragon Age II", and the newest "Pokemon". In principle what should be happening is them deciding "well, we can lower our prices $20 and still make a profit, so we'll do that and hope people will buy our game instead". Now, there might be some technicality that allows the game companies to act as a cartel (which should be addressed) but honestly I don't think they have attracted notice from the goverment yet, because simply put the games industry isn't that big a deal financially. This may or may not change depending on how the content-censorship crusade currently goes.

Right now, a big part of the dislike towards the industry is that they have become so much of a big business/cartel in their operations, that all protests from game-makers aside, it's no longer about the games. It's literally about crapping out one turd after another in a lot of cases based on a formula about what sells. On one hand the developers say "hey stop treating us so badly", but on the others you see cases with them justifying themselves by pointing out what a huge profit-oriented business the industry has become.

The lack of REAL competition in the industry is also why you see so many games released as buggy messes. I've been in Beta tests for MMOs where I've seen big time bugs remain in the game for months before release despite the developers being told about them, and then also last for months later after release. Right now since everyone is setting prices and not competing directly, producing a quality product isn't as big a deal because it's far less likely that someone is going to say "wow, these guys release huge messes, I'm going to buy from someone else". The attitude is increasingly "we can fix it, if the game proves popular enough after release to justify the effort".

I think the real issue is that contrarians are NOT a minority of people, it's just that the game industry charges on ahead figuring that since everyone does the same things, we're either going to "take it", or stop gaming, and so far we're dealing with whatever they choose to hand us.

When the gaming community was smaller, and the industry didn't demand constant monster profits, I think it was a lot more positive. What's more I also think the community is at a point where I think they can engage in real design, rather than the current "paint by numbers" approach, even the casuals aren't quite as casual as they once were having gotten used to gaming. If the game industry wants the community to change, it needs to reform itself in a major way since it's really bringing a lot of this onto itself.

What's more, most of the people saying negative things are not unique, and special flowers each with original complaints. Typically you see community outcry around the same basic points, and it gets worse the more the game industry chooses to ignore what people think.

The game industry asking for feedback and then ignoring what they don't want to hear is also a big deal. What happened with "Hawke" in "Dragon Age 2" is an example of this. Bioware pretty much decided that is what it was going to do, but asked the community, got hammered with a resounding "no" and then decided to do it anyway, while pretty much claiming they received a positive response. With occurances like this, is there any question why the gaming community has an increasingly negative attitude towards the gaming industry? Right now I expect a majority of fans to be saying "yeah, Dragon Age 2 is cool, but it would have been better if I could make my own guy and have some differance in origins", which means that the reaction is going to be negative despite a lot of people playing it. Bioware could have adverted this by listening to the community response, especially since they ASKED.

Let's be honest, people rarely see themselves in a negative light. The gaming industry has done enough talking where it's easy to see things from their perspective (not that it helps their case in a lot of ways). On the other hand the gaming industry has not really viewed itself in a mirror to see what a group of corrupt, greedy, prima-donnas they have turned into. I doubt most of them even realize it. The gaming community however is going to continue to call them on what they do, as long as they keep behaving that way, even if a lot of people in the community can't itemize the problems the way I tend to.

I know many people disagree with me here, but that's how I see things. I think the gaming industry needs to drop acting like it's the victims and acknowlege that it's responsible for a lot of it's own problems and criticism. The problem isn't really the community since we're the customers and by definition always right since we're the ones paying the money.

Of course the general lack of consumer advocacy among gamers mean that we don't do much except whine. You'll notice very few gamers reinforce their attitudes with what they choose to spend their money on. "Black Ops" sold a ridiculous amount of copies despite the general hatred of Activision and Bobby Kotick. The only way to really influance the industry nowadays is with our money, and the biggest failing of the gaming community is it choosing to NOT buy games, rather than handing over the money and whining which hardly encourages the companies to change anything when they are making massive piles of cash.
To summarize, the video game industry is corrupt, but developers have no reason to change because they're making tons of money. People complain in reaction to what they know is wrong, but since they continue to shell out the money for titles, the developer' wallets stay fat. This further encourages developers to continue what they're doing. Therefore, the only way to combat the problem is to stop buying the games.

How do you convince someone reading this that people are buying games despite having a dislike towards the product and industry? Why aren't people just refusing to spend the money? You can pull on all of the comments on forums etc. where people are complaining, but the numbers are in direct contrast. How do you prove a situation that's based on thinking one thing and doing the other?

An explanation I can give is an analogy using ice cream. Let's say people want chocolate. The ice cream company only makes vanilla. Well, it's not chocolate, but it's still ice cream. Some flavor of ice cream is better than no ice cream, so I'll buy some. Besides, vanilla is still pretty damn good.

You're logic is correct, and your hinge point on people just accepting whatever the market comes out with is also probably correct. It does fall apart, though, when we look at the tendency of people to just buy what's available rather than to live with nothing. What's available to the people is also not the bad. This gives two possible situations:

1. People are legitimately upset with the industry but are just living with it. The complaint comments are accurate representations the people's opinion, and the majority agree.

2. People are just being contrarian, and the reality is that majority are satisfied, if not fully enjoying the games they play.

No one can determine who the majority is statistically. Case 2 is overly convenient for the game developers, especially considering the corrupt nature of their business. Case 1, however, is irrelevant if people keep purchasing the games. The numbers show public approval, so there's no hard evidence to back it (even if reality is different from the numbers).

It's a stalemate, and both ways of viewing the situation are correct. The best way to attack the problem is probably then from the market aspect with price fixing, etc. because, from a consumer standpoint, I don't think enough people will ever be swayed either way to change things.

I commend your analysis.
 

Murray Whitwell

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If they don't want people to complain about their game, how about starting by not copy-pasting gameplay from the last 7 games in the series and selling it at a laughable price?
 

WolfEdge

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HankMan said:
Here's a way to cut down on "Contrarian" Gamer Comments: DON'T. MAKE. CRAPPY. GAMES.
It's not 'creativity' it's Q-U-A-L-I-T-Y that's the issue here. People will still play the games, but if there are broken parts, they WILL notice!
What you say is true, in some respects. But... at the same time, can you name a game that DOESN'T have a vocal detraction? And I don't mean like, "This game is okay, but it could be better. And here's why..." I'm talking about, "This game, which some people think is great is SHIT. It's SHIT, and it will never stop being SHIT! And here's why..."

There IS an awful lot of unprecedented vitriol in this day and age, there's no denying that. It doesn't help that just about any ************ can log into a forum and start flinging shit, all without a single ulterior motive. It's gotten to the point where the average person's first line of defense against any given post that they even suspect is inflammatory is to be as nasty and unforgiving as they can.

Think about it. How many response posts have we seen on the Escapist alone that assumes some sort of slight was meant and responds in kind, guns blazing, before having to be told that no offense was meant and take a god damn chill pill? We nerds can be absolutely barbaric to one another with very little provocation. This mindset extends, without a doubt, to those who produce our precious content. Content we then immediately squabble and bicker meaninglessly over like ravenous animals.

It is a rather sorry state of affairs.
 

Still Life

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Greg Tito said:
"Contrarian" Gamers Suck Says Treyarch



When asked if he could change anything about the game industry, Treyarch's community manager said he would stop all the bitching from fans.

The gaming industry, similar to many other pursuits, has a very vocal community of fans that post endlessly on forums about why this or that game sucks. There is nothing wrong with speaking your mind in a clear and concise way, but as the Community Manager for a major developer, Josh Olin thinks that such complaining isn't helpful. Part of his job is monitoring the Call of Duty: Black Ops community, and he finds reading the constant negativity and vitriol to be the worst part of his job.

"Personally, as a community manager who lives in the media or social media world every day, I think the social culture of video games is moving in a more negative direction as technology and social media continues to grow," Olin said. "Rather than growing with it, the trend seems to be devolving. More and more gamers seem to forget what this industry is all about." Which is ostensibly bringing fun and entertainment to millions of people, something that many so-called fans forget.

More than that, Olin believes the reactions are actually holding the industry back from taking risks. "It's a creative industry - the most creative form of entertainment in existence," he said. "Too many developers who try new things are getting burned by 'pundits' and angry entitled fans who look to be contrarian, sometimes simply for the sake of being contrarian. The only thing this attitude aims to achieve is stunt that creativity and innovation even further, which is something that no rational gamer looking to be entertained would want to do."

I may not be a huge Treyarch fan, but I think that Olin just perfectly expressed something that I've been considering for a while. Why are so many gamers quick to ***** about a game that exists solely to provide pleasure? It seems that the more popular a game is, the more people "hate" it, while they still play it every day.

Can't we all just get along?

Source: Now Gamer [http://www.nowgamer.com/features/1185/black-ops-first-strike-dlc-treyarch-interview?o=2#listing]


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He's made a perfectly valid observation. One of the problems I have with the gaming community is the sheer negativity from 'fans' who seem content to troll, or feel entitled to think they 'know best' without actually constructing a cohesive argument.
 

samsonguy920

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Granted a game like Call of Duty has a reputation of attracting the screechy 12 year-old crowd, it more sounds to me like someone is getting tired of his job. I guess the 12 minute vacations a year from Activision aren't doing it for him anymore.

I seem to recall a time when the first rule of any company was to do nothing to attack the customer base. Normally this guy would be facing anything from suspension or docked pay to termination with a possible civil court appearance. But then I remember this is Activision we are speaking of here, where the CEO feels free to trashtalk the gamers who are making him rich.
I imagine the community manager has some credible points here, but I am feeling he is more venting his own frustrations that aren't shared by the company he works for completely.
Makes one wonder if Treyarch is next on Kotick's list of those who should be fired and forcibly removed from the premises.
 

Silva

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From an excellent developer, I think this would be a fair enough comment, but from Treyarch?

There's a REASON you're criticised, guys.

People who create the same darn shooter five times in a row with only moderate upgrades and the same style of action, with most installments set to full game price, have no place to lecture the gaming community on "creativity".

However hypocritical it is coming from them, I think it is still true that social networking has created the ability for a knee-jerk social reaction to any changes or risks taken in coming sequels to loved games. This is a problem, but it could easily be worked around on the developing end.

"The reactions make it harder to take risks" is a poppycock argument. In the end it's the developer that chooses to take a risk or not, the amount of money in it only defines the views of the business executives. And if the executives have that much power that money defines the outcome to such a grand degree, then there's the REAL problem here. And it's one that stands a better chance of being solved than trying to cool the endless commentary on places like Twitter and Facebook.

Why not simply make less sequels, and instead rely on clever media campaigns to push new titles along? With a new title, you have a lot less of the "fan community pressure" that causes these issues. You can be creative without a big risk of offending people or alienating them. Thinking about it this way, it's little surprise that Nintendo went ahead with the casual audience to such an extent with the Wii. They're just ahead of the curve (though I'd translate their strategy as "chickening out on doing their best to please the hardcore the old fashioned way").

Sure, suggesting that game companies make less money so they can stop whining and BE creative is not going to go down well, but as a customer, it's fair to ask for what we'd find ideal. And there it is.
 

Voodoomancer

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"... More and more gamers seem to forget what this industry is all about."
...
"It's a creative industry - the most creative form of entertainment in existence"
This from the people making a game in the series iconic for bland generic shooters? :p

...but yeah, way too many people do nothing but whine, and not enough do constructive criticism.
 

Awexsome

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I'm sure a lot of guys at Bungie are giving props to this guy. On B.net the main "Halo: Reach" forum is full of useless: "Reticule bloom sucks, Armor lock sucks, Bungie is terrible, Halo is dead."

The other forums are better but I'm glad Bungie is leaving behind Halo at this point. Good thing about a brand new IP and hopefully new game mechanics (please not another FPS Bungie) is that it's kind of a fresh start for them. No more clinging Halo fanboys (not Bungie fanboys (Me). Difference.) complaining endlessly and uselessly about something they think would be better and lashes out when people contradict them.

Wholeheartedly agree with the Treyarch PR guy. While there are problems with the game (PS3 & PC preformance) and some things that are arguably problems with the game (balance/map issues) people far too often make the quick connection of "don't like" to "terrible game" then proceed to yell it everywhere they go online.
 

ultratog1028

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Show me one game company that does not agree with what Treyarch said. There is a fine line between recommending a change to a game and whining.
 

qeinar

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How can you expect people to not ***** when you release a game that does not work properly? (i'm talking about the pc release which freezes, shure they seem to be working on fixes, but it's taken a very long time already and a lot of people still have a huge problem.)
 

qeinar

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TheDooD said:
This is why I hate that PR guys are some of the highest paid people in gaming. When said people like Olin freakout because they're people blasting about how bad a game is. All Olin's job is to relay issues to the guys making it and the publishers. If he sees 100+ this is why said game is broken, bad and or unplayable he should relay those comments. Yet he doesn't have to relay all the each ill tempered "this game is a piece of fucking ass garbage" but he has to remember that those comments most likely have some truth in them its just said person could have typed it when they were in a bad mood. I like the PC and PS3 players of BLOPS that truly found the game as a fucking piece of garbage.

Games cost too much for these cheap, lazy ass short cuts that cost the company more money and headaches down the road. Most gamers want to enjoy the game and have fun. Yet when they're major, hard to not notice problems with your game. People want it fixed if it keeps them for enjoying the game. Olin needs to humble himself just because they pointed out the people you work for sold them a defective, sub par product. Doesn't mean you blame them for the reasons why you can grow as a company.
I agree with you. I think a lot of the comments made about the game is from people that played the game, got mad and the in a fit of rage comments. However after a good while i am now mad every time i just think about the game, what is frustrating is i really want to play the game, but every time i ragequit due to the freezes i have, and i do this even if i win a game because it is so damn anoying.

Also i can't remember complaining much about any other game than call of duty, which is kinda ridiculous. but when i think about it, zelda games never gave me a good reason to complain same with mario. never sent valve angry emails about tf2. i guess it's because i didn't have a minifreeze problem with those games..
 

slackbheep

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If I had this magical power I'd remove this ass hat, and perhaps his companies rehashed projects from the last couple years. These guys need to put on their big boy pants and realize that as long as they're producing something for public consumption they're putting it out there for public criticism. Even if they weren't just another example of a brand burping up a new incarnation of the same game every year there would be millions of vicious comments about them daily.
 

geizr

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The Internet is saturated with mental-emotional 5-year-olds. It's not just gaming where this problem presents itself. Go to any forum that has any relation with technology or computers, and you'll see the same kind of behavior, sometimes with even worse illogic and short-sightedness.
 

brainslurper

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strangeotron said:
brainslurper said:
Littaly said:
It's a little unclear what type of bitching he is referring to, and what he counts as "bitching".

The thing is, while there is a lot of nonconstructive whine going on in the gamer community, he can't expect us to swallow everything they give us and be happy, that isn't exactly going to help "creativity and innovation" either. Yes, Black Ops has been taking a lot of crap from the gaming community and while it gets a little repetitive, it's not entirely unfounded.
by bitching, is the pepole who would say something sucks without any factual intelligence to back it up. this takes place in the ps3 vs xbox argument, the windows/osx argument, and it just shows that most of the gaming community is retarded. black ops is one of the best multiplayer fps ever, and even if it was waay overrated, it does not suck. at all. it is in fact amazing. go play it.
I don't understand how you reach that conclusion. BO is technically a mess; hit detection is dreadful, netcode/matchmaking/lag is at unacceptable levels so as to be unplayable, it's not balanced at all - some of the killstreaks (ugh) are ridiculous. You have launchers for example that only fire 1 rocket and still miss choppers even with a lock-on! The Huey is way overpowered. The RCXD is among the most ridiculous things i've seen in CoD. It just suffers from a severe lack of strong independent playesting.
You actually do present some valid points that arent ahem QUICKSCOPING ES GONE ahem. I think the bad hit detection is more due to the lag time of not having dedicated servers.. and the spawning does suck... but i still think the game improved on modern warfare despite the fact that it feels like they should have maybe played the game before releasing it. also, finding games works fine on xbox. had a few hiccups toward launch but it seems to be all sorted out now.