Controversial Fire Emblem: Fates Scene Dropped From Western Releases

Davroth

The shadow remains cast!
Apr 27, 2011
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Dr. Crawver said:
Ok, to your first point. Sure I guess? There are people doing that. Take it up with them I guess? I didn't do that, have no plans of doing that, so pinning their actions on me seems counter-productive to any potential conversation we could have. I have made no statement nor assertion about you as a person, so I can't help but feel all of that was unneeded.
It's not all about you. This is a public forum. Don't assume I'm always talking specifically to you as a general rule, even if I quote parts of what you said.

No-one is taking your games away from you. Unless you want to lay the claim that it's this one small thing that makes the game, the game will still be the same for all intents and purposes. If it's the fact that ANYTHING has changed due to localisation, then you've got to be as outraged at all the changes made in all the fire emblem games released in the west right? It's been pointed out by many people far better than I could ever do it that this is not the first, last, or even amazingly notable thing to have been changed due to localisation. If you want to put your flag on the side of all localisation is bad no matter what, that's fine. I'd disagree with you whole heartedly, but at least it's a consistent stance. At the moment, it is honestly coming across that it is just THIS change that rubs you the wrong way because of what you believe are the reasons behind it, without any confirmation from nintendo. (honestly I believe they're not doing it for the few hundred online users who don't like the scene that were ever going to buy the game anyway, but rather the thousands of far more casual players who are going to buy the game, stumble into that scene, and be made thoroughly uncomfortable by it. Not to mention nintendo is mostly marketed towards family friendly entertainment. Gets harder to keep that image in the west when you have a scene that can be viewed, rightly or wrongly, as drugging a character. Nintendo aren't scared of the "SJWs". They're scared of mums seeing this and never buying a nintendo game for their kids again because of it. And if a mum saw a scene like that, you can be dam sure they'd tell others about it. And unlike on the internet, where we're all relatively game savvy, and can get the cultural references, and justify it, our parents cannot, and nor will so many others).
Who cares who Nintendo is scared of? I don't think these kinds of changes should be made in localization period. People's sensibilities should not be the deciding factor as to what makes it into a localized game and what doesn't. If it's the moms they are fearing, I honestly have to wonder why? Do you honestly think that any mother is going to get this deeply invested in Fire Emblem of all things that they would find that supposed "questionable content"? Please. Not in a million years. This isn't Manhunt. And neither this scene or the option to pet your characters to increase your social links or whatever is in any way sexual or mature in nature, claiming that the character gets drugged is not even accurate. What? You can pat someone on the head? Ban this sick filth! And ban Nintendogs with it as well.

Doesn't that point about saying it should have been a change for the middle east ignore the fact that there is a sizable muslim population in america and europe? It might be because it is rather early in the morning, if in which case I apologize, but I am just not able to get the distinction you are trying to make here. Again, might be on me, but I get the feeling it might just be something I disagree with you with.
Around that time? Muslims were all over the world, yes, but it was still in a time where there was not the kind of big, public outrage we have nowadays. Again, this change pertained to all versions, it wasn't regional localization. So it has nothing to do with the subject overall.

And I'm dismissive because the product turned out is not the envisioned piece from the start. I'm not saying the devs didn't work hard, that plenty didn't pour their heart and soul into it. But at the end of the day they'll have made a product that would have been poked and prodded by the publisher all the way through the design process. To claim that it's the devs perfect work of art is naive because what we get isn't what the devs had in their dream. Fucking hell, nintendo are terrible for this one. The reason why that starfox game made by rare came out like it did was because nintendo walked in and made rare turn their dinosaur based game where you play as a fox into a shoehorned starfox game. There are plenty of stories about how shitty nintendo treated third party devs (is partly why they don't get many third party games any more, and have to rely on in house games to survive). I am not saying don't care. I am just saying don't try to pretend to me that it's a work of art first and a product second. No publisher has worked like that, and nintendo is no different.
I feel like you are grossly misrepresenting the process that turned Dinosaur Planet into Starfox Adventure. I saw quite a few statements from Rare employees that paint a very different picture. And really, the whole thing about Nintendo treating third part developers badly, that's mostly based on the NES/SNES era. And there is a distinction between 2nd and 3rd party developers.

If something was made to be a work of art has absolutely nothing to do with its merit as a work of art. Historically nothing could be further from the truth.

Revnak said:
Uh, I was talking about the insane stuff he wanted to do that everybody else involved with Star Wars stopped him from doing, and 008 was talking about true gamers wanting to experience the original form of the developers vision, meaning that true gamers wouldn't mod.
That situation doesn't really have to do with the concept of things getting changed in localization, sorry.

No, those things have nothing to do with each other. Once it's your game, once you bought it, it's within your right to mod it with the tools available to you. Has nothing to do with localization changes, so I don't even know why you bring it up.

I didn't ask you if the developers in Japan were developers. I asked you if the guys who localize the series of games you are talking about are developers given that they have added entire difficulty levels, retooled or added mechanics, rewritten, added, or removed dialogue, changed the stats on much of the cast, including the entire cast of one game, and have added extensive art and audio assets to each game. These guys are developers. Absolutely. Their intentions and their desires when localizing these games ought to be considered just like you would the intentions of any developer on the original creative team, even if it is to a lesser extent.
Not sure what you are talking about here specifically. But if they want to be developers, they should make their own games, putting their own ideas into it and all. Instead of making substantial changes to someone else's vision. Not to mention, that argument doesn't really fly either way, since it's not like the people doing localization have a say in what they change to begin with. Even less so then the people putting out the original product.

Uh, it came out in 1990? What massive wave of fantasy anime came out in the late 80's? Fire Emblem, like other JRPGs at the time, was made to emulate other games like Wizardry, which in turn were influenced by D&D. The writing and characters have always been super generic high-fantasy.
The one in Japan. You can look them up on wikipedia if you like. They, too, were heavily inspired by D&D incidentally. There's lots and lots of them.

NPC009 said:
1. Who says I'm basing this on just that one convo? Remember that this is the game that went the Pok?mon amie route?[/qoute]

Ah yes. Let's talk about that. I'd like to know all about what's your problem with that aspect of the it. I mean yes, it was such sick filth when you could pet your Pokemon, downright disgusting, but.. Okay, I'm sorry. I don't understand the outrage.

[/qoute]2. I wonder what you mean by 'very Japanese'. Earlier installments were all very much straight-up fantasy games inspired by western fiction and mythology. Sure, Seisen no Keifu had the whole incest thing, but if you look at the plot, it's more like Game of Thrones before Game of Thrones was a thing (BTW the whole children fighting at their parents' side thing? Yeah, not happening in SoK despite you being able to create a boatload of kids) than some random 'No matter how I look at it, my tsundere little sister is too cute to not want to screw' manga. And then there's things such as character designs, compare something like 9-10 to 13-14 and it's like, holy shit, were did all the boob(plate)s come from?
Correction. They were inspired by Anime and writing inspired by western fantasy. There's a distinction to be made there. The earlier games looks like they straight up ripped off Record of Lodoss War for heaven's sake..

Hey, it's fine if you hate all this stuff, I don't care. Does you not liking it mean that nobody else is allowed to like it? Is that it?
 

Dr. Crawver

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Davroth said:
Dr. Crawver said:
Ok, to your first point. Sure I guess? There are people doing that. Take it up with them I guess? I didn't do that, have no plans of doing that, so pinning their actions on me seems counter-productive to any potential conversation we could have. I have made no statement nor assertion about you as a person, so I can't help but feel all of that was unneeded.
It's not all about you. This is a public forum. Don't assume I'm always talking specifically to you as a general rule, even if I quote parts of what you said.
Wait wait wait wait no, you don't get to play that game. You don't get to do the "I wasn't talking specifically about you, even though I was talking to you about what could have possibly been you" thing, while at the same time, in this very reply, calling out others for not saying things that you feel aren't relevant (which I'd disagree with anyway). You quoted me, so you're talking to me. That is how it works and you know it.

You don't get to set one standard for others, and then not even hold yourself to those standards. And the level of condescension in that statement, for what was you're fuck up getting called out? Get over yourself honestly.

It's incredibly clear that you despise all localisation (or at least claim to), but for one reason or another, this is the one is the hill you want to die on while you don't even seem to acknowledge when people bring up other localisation cases in the past whether you even disagree with them or not.

You say that peoples sensibilities shouldn't matter, when guess what? You're alone in that opinion in the outside world. Nintendo, and every other company care very deeply. Not for morality reasons, but for their bottom line, and you crying "artistic integrity" for a product which they clearly don't hold in such high an esteem means so very little. (and for the record, no, I don't think those parents would find out by playing themselves. But if a tame sex scene in mass effect can end up on the news, don't be so surprised if what can be viewed as a date rape scene, however incorrect that is, ended up on it as well).

I honestly have no interest in continuing this because I've had back and forths with people on the internet with different opinions an ideals. It's clear this is impossible with you because you are just treating everyone else with such condescension, and I hate myself for the fact that you got this reaction out of me. But end of the day, nintendo aren't doing this for "SJWs" or whatever boodiemen you might believe, they did this on their own accord, like countless other cases of localisation, and they don't care about what you have to say on the matter, nor how much you hate that they don't hold their own game in as high a regard in an artistic sense as you do.
 

Davroth

The shadow remains cast!
Apr 27, 2011
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Dr. Crawver said:
Wait wait wait wait no, you don't get to play that game. You don't get to do the "I wasn't talking specifically about you, even though I was talking to you about what could have possibly been you" thing, while at the same time, in this very reply, calling out others for not saying things that you feel aren't relevant (which I'd disagree with anyway). You quoted me, so you're talking to me. That is how it works and you know it.
Nope, I never particularly talk to a single person on here. If that's what I wanted to do I'd take it to PMs.

You don't get to set one standard for others, and then not even hold yourself to those standards. And the level of condescension in that statement, for what was you're fuck up getting called out? Get over yourself honestly.
I never assume that someone is talking specifically to me. If so, that seems pretty futile to me. Why bother trying to change my mind specifically? Makes no sense to me.

It's incredibly clear that you despise all localisation (or at least claim to), but for one reason or another, this is the one is the hill you want to die on while you don't even seem to acknowledge when people bring up other localisation cases in the past whether you even disagree with them or not.
Yeah, I think it's kind of bullshit that we get shafted by Nintendo pulling out content of their new flagship game and replaces it with nothing and more nothing. I think that's kind of bullshit, and I don't see why I should stand for it.

You say that peoples sensibilities shouldn't matter, when guess what? You're alone in that opinion in the outside world. Nintendo, and every other company care very deeply. Not for morality reasons, but for their bottom line, and you crying "artistic integrity" for a product which they clearly don't hold in such high an esteem means so very little. (and for the record, no, I don't think those parents would find out by playing themselves. But if a tame sex scene in mass effect can end up on the news, don't be so surprised if what can be viewed as a date rape scene, however incorrect that is, ended up on it as well).

Well then, I hope that they will see a noticeably decrease in their sales based on how badly they treat their overseas customers. One can hope.

Not sure what transcript of the scene you read, but I'll just assume you didn't read any at all and get your information second hand. Maybe you should do something about that. It's really annoying to go over the basics all over again and again.

I honestly have no interest in continuing this because I've had back and forths with people on the internet with different opinions an ideals. It's clear this is impossible with you because you are just treating everyone else with such condescension, and I hate myself for the fact that you got this reaction out of me. But end of the day, nintendo aren't doing this for "SJWs" or whatever boodiemen you might believe, they did this on their own accord, like countless other cases of localisation, and they don't care about what you have to say on the matter, nor how much you hate that they don't hold their own game in as high a regard in an artistic sense as you do.
You just said that they made those changes not to offend over reactionary mothers. Which is it? You can't have it both ways, man. Either Nintendo cares about the outrage culture and makes changes based on that or they don't. You can't use both as an argument in the same damn post. As for the condescension you perceive, that's in your head. Don't project that stuff on me, thank you very much.
 

NPC009

Don't mind me, I'm just a NPC
Aug 23, 2010
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Davroth said:
NPC009 said:
1. Who says I'm basing this on just that one convo? Remember that this is the game that went the Pok?mon amie route?[/qoute]

Ah yes. Let's talk about that. I'd like to know all about what's your problem with that aspect of the it. I mean yes, it was such sick filth when you could pet your Pokemon, downright disgusting, but.. Okay, I'm sorry. I don't understand the outrage.
Eh, I'm not outraged. More like... disappointed? This is a series I've been a fan of since the Game Boy Advance days (and I played most of the earlier installments as well), and up until Awakening the series was always about the gameplay. Of course there were character convos and I do like the concept of strengthening bonds between characters, especially as it's one of the few opportunities for character development. Fire Emblem casts tend to be huge and the story is about a few characters at most. So, convos, that's cool. However, the stuff like patting characters on the head and touching them in other places (with some reactions being of a more sexual nature) seems like a desperate and cheap otaku pandering. And I'm not buying the 'natural interaction' excuse. People don't go around touching eachother like that, not even in Japan. Unless 'anime cliches' is now a prefecture? Let me answer that for you: no, it's not. It's silly sexual fantasy stuff that seems out of place in the series. And I really, really hope, stuff like this isn't actually neccessary to sell the game.



[qoute]

Correction. They were inspired by Anime and writing inspired by western fantasy. There's a distinction to be made there. The earlier games looks like they straight up ripped off Record of Lodoss War for heaven's sake...
And that distinction would be...? I mean, on a technical level, sure, there's a difference, but what effect did that actually have on the Fire Emblem franchise? Fantasy anime and manga back then were still fairly close to western counter parts. Tropes such as monsters girls in maid costumes didn't take shape until later.

Hey, it's fine if you hate all this stuff, I don't care. Does you not liking it mean that nobody else is allowed to like it? Is that it?
No, it does not. However, I kinda get the feeling you're using 'other people like this stuff!' as a way of saying 'that means you can't criticise it!'. They're entitled to their opinion, I'm entitled to mine. We can ignore eachothers opinions if we want or listen to them. Both are fine.

Personally, I'd rather not jump on the 'It's censorship! Please think of the gamers!' bandwagon whenever something is changed during the localisation process. Whether a change is good or bad depends on the product and the change. In this case, I'm siding with Nintendo, because I think some ideas were bad to begin with and I support their right to go back and change the game to be better.
 

Revnak_v1legacy

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Davroth said:
Revnak said:
Uh, I was talking about the insane stuff he wanted to do that everybody else involved with Star Wars stopped him from doing, and 008 was talking about true gamers wanting to experience the original form of the developers vision, meaning that true gamers wouldn't mod.
That situation doesn't really have to do with the concept of things getting changed in localization, sorry.

No, those things have nothing to do with each other. Once it's your game, once you bought it, it's within your right to mod it with the tools available to you. Has nothing to do with localization changes, so I don't even know why you bring it up.
I brought it up in response to the idea that true gamers would want to experience the original version. I understand you apparently don't directly reply to people, but I do.

I didn't ask you if the developers in Japan were developers. I asked you if the guys who localize the series of games you are talking about are developers given that they have added entire difficulty levels, retooled or added mechanics, rewritten, added, or removed dialogue, changed the stats on much of the cast, including the entire cast of one game, and have added extensive art and audio assets to each game. These guys are developers. Absolutely. Their intentions and their desires when localizing these games ought to be considered just like you would the intentions of any developer on the original creative team, even if it is to a lesser extent.
Not sure what you are talking about here specifically. But if they want to be developers, they should make their own games, putting their own ideas into it and all. Instead of making substantial changes to someone else's vision. Not to mention, that argument doesn't really fly either way, since it's not like the people doing localization have a say in what they change to begin with. Even less so then the people putting out the original product.
The localization team of the early final fantasies were given the creative liberty to almost completely redefine the cast of the game. The different localization teams of the MGS series have greatly changed the tone or style of those games, and have occasionally even had an impact on the Japanese version. So they in fact do have some say in what and how they change things.

Uh, it came out in 1990? What massive wave of fantasy anime came out in the late 80's? Fire Emblem, like other JRPGs at the time, was made to emulate other games like Wizardry, which in turn were influenced by D&D. The writing and characters have always been super generic high-fantasy.
The one in Japan. You can look them up on wikipedia if you like. They, too, were heavily inspired by D&D incidentally. There's lots and lots of them.
Ok. If you're not going to say what anime or how, I'll just assume you don't know then.
 

Dr. Crawver

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Revnak said:
Davroth said:
Revnak said:
Uh, I was talking about the insane stuff he wanted to do that everybody else involved with Star Wars stopped him from doing, and 008 was talking about true gamers wanting to experience the original form of the developers vision, meaning that true gamers wouldn't mod.
That situation doesn't really have to do with the concept of things getting changed in localization, sorry.

No, those things have nothing to do with each other. Once it's your game, once you bought it, it's within your right to mod it with the tools available to you. Has nothing to do with localization changes, so I don't even know why you bring it up.
I brought it up in response to the idea that true gamers would want to experience the original version. I understand you apparently don't directly reply to people, but I do.
Isn't he like the only person who does this? Also, isn't it allowing him to just say the same thing, and use it as an excuse to not actually address some of the specific points made to him? I'm seeing that a lot and it's honestly infuriating me.
 

Lizzy Finnegan

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LostGryphon said:
In the context of the specific post you're attacking? Yes.
You learn something every day, and today I learned (amongst other things) that finding "she's bisexual" and "She likes girls in a platonic manner" to be contradictory makes you pedantic. Learning is so fun!

All of her potential supports are (it's animu though, so everybody looks like a girl) male, so it's not a thing limited to the protagonist. So, you're saying that was the character's intent then? Authorial intent seems to be that she's 'straight,' but finds women attractive...to a crippling extent...which, we're all aware, is hyper unrealistic. Also, magic.
It's also kind of bad writing, which, you know, tends to elicit criticism. Which is why some people are here criticizing that particular bit of writing while others act as though it being a common trope makes it good writing and above such pedantic things as criticism.

That's just...like...your opinion, man.
Hey, if you like that sort of yuri baiting and pandering nonsense, that's on you.

And it's called hyperbole. I'm not expecting people to collapse after seeing some anime girls twirl about with hearts in their eyes while gazing at a classmate. They don't faint, sure, but we can argue whether there are any weak knees in the crowd.
The show also doesn't definitively state that every last one of them is only interested in girls in a purely platonic way and show them all going on to real relationships with boys.

I agreed on the drugging part. Only bit I could see taking issue with due to the obvious parallels, but we're just seeing this differently. I see love and affection trumping gender with the aid of dubious...get this...MAGIC. You see- I don't know what you see so I'm not going to put words in your mouth.
Well, it'd be one thing to see love and affection trumping gender if it wasn't so clearly not in this case. Soleil can be romantically paired with numerous male characters and precisely zero female characters. It'd be one thing if Soleil could only be paired with women with the lone exception being the male protagonist, as that would actually be love trumping gender. As it stands, though, it's just showing homosexual attraction to be something that will never be realized and that you grow out of when your commander makes you fight next to some random guy you.

Though even with that change, that would just make the whole magic drugging bit worse because not only is it "trumping gender" by way of having a character fall in love with the image she had of you while under mind-altering magic, but it'd make it much worse in regards to the whole gay conversion thing.

And again. It's like. Your opinion, man. I actually think the trope's endearing.
Which trope? The one where girls being attracted to other girls exists as a purely platonic thing that they're all expected to grow out of when they meet some male? Because that's honestly never been endearing to me. More obnoxious and indicative of Japan's issues with homosexuality.

It's dumb. All around. And the raaaaaaaaaage here over it is sad, especially since your side has already won anyway.

It's an unnecessary victory lap.
I wouldn't really call responding to people going on about how "my side" is completely wrong and maliciously misrepresenting everything for the sake of their puritanical censorship regime to be taking an unnecessary victory lap...
 

Lizzy Finnegan

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Yan007 said:
I, for one, am of the opinion that the scene should have remained as-is because this was the intended design by the producers. Still, I can understand that changing this is very wise in an SJW society. Could you imagine a Nintendo rep having to explain the scene on TV after the backlash they would have got? How could he explain it with enough context for it to make sense and not feel like "rape culture"?
Uhm, fully certified anti-SJW cis gendered white shitlord here. But you just can't show sexuality as something that can be 'fixed' into the 'correct' heterosexual version. That has nothing to do with SJWs, and verything to do with the fact that sexuality doesn't work like that, and that's only still a debate because we have insane religious nutjobs who hate homosexuals.

Ussually when it's "bunch of deranged nutjobs vs all normal people", a subject is untouchable.

To compare: This scene is kinda like showing a game where your protagonist has to slaughter families for being heretics, and then convince the kids to become suicide bombers for the one true faith. Then sell that game in France or Syria. Simply not cool.
 

Spartan448

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Revnak said:
Spartan448 said:
MarsAtlas said:
Spartan448 said:
There is literally no canonical evidence as to Ike being gay at any point in either Path of Radiance or Radiant Dawn. Having gay characters is one thing but it's downright petty when you take an already established character and try to use the tiniest possible circumstance to claim that character is somehow a raging homosexual.

Also, the writing for Awakening was fine. It was at least better than Sacred Stones.
Err, the final support between Ike and Soren is Soren confessing his love for Ike, breaking down crying, then Ike holding Soren while he cries and reciprocating the feeling. Then the two of them and just the two of them disappear into the sunset together.

No chance in hell that if that happened between a man and a woman that people would say that its not romantic.
And this is a perfect example of people taking something completely out of context and spinning it for their own political gain. The final support conversation between Ike and Soren is about Soren revealing that he's a Branded, human-laguz cross-breeds that are regarded by most of Tellius about as well as Nazi Germany would regard a black Soviet jew. While the Laguz hate the humans and the humans hate the Laguz, BOTH of them hate the Branded. Which is why to Soren it's a big fucking deal that he got that off his chest after who knows how many years.

There's absolutely no canonical evidence that Ike is gay. I play the Tellius games almost religiously, and I can assure you of that fact. If you want to try to use support conversations to prove your spin, I highly suggest you go back and read them again.
I think Mars is talking about the final conversation in Radiant Dawn, where they talk about how they first met, Soren essentially says Ike is his entire reason for being, and then Ike cradles Soren in his arms while he cries. Then they go off into the sunset together. That's all pretty fucking gay man.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FxGxCxSCZcE
The final support in PoR is basically exactly the same, minus the crying part. There's literally nothing gay about that. Or are platonic friends not allowed to let their friends cry on their shoulder anymore? It's rather close minded to think that just because a male character isn't being a huge manly man alpha male all the time that they are therefore gay, just as the reverse is true.
 

Spartan448

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MarsAtlas said:
Spartan448 said:
And this is a perfect example of people taking something completely out of context and spinning it for their own political gain. The final support conversation between Ike and Soren is about Soren revealing that he's a Branded, human-laguz cross-breeds that are regarded by most of Tellius about as well as Nazi Germany would regard a black Soviet jew. While the Laguz hate the humans and the humans hate the Laguz, BOTH of them hate the Branded. Which is why to Soren it's a big fucking deal that he got that off his chest after who knows how many years.

There's absolutely no canonical evidence that Ike is gay. I play the Tellius games almost religiously, and I can assure you of that fact. If you want to try to use support conversations to prove your spin, I highly suggest you go back and read them again.
Oh god, its like the ending to Legend of Korra all over again. Do they need to screw on camera? Funny how Soren feels this was about Ike and nobody else in Greil's Mercenaries even though they treat him well too. He never felt this way about Greil even though he was 30'ish in Path of Radiance. He practically raised Mist. Hmmmmm, I wonder whats going on as to why he left with Ike and only Ike...
No-one else in the Greil Mercenaries ever gave him food, and Sinon couldn't have made him feel any better about the others. He never really fully knew Greil's inclination, and I believe Mist knows actually. He could have reasonably gone with Mist but for whatever reason Mist saw something in Boyd of all people, so that idea gets nyxed. So fuck it, travel the world together with your oldest friend. So fuck it, travel the world together with your oldest friend. Nothing gay about that at all.
 

Lizzy Finnegan

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Spartan448 said:
No-one else in the Greil Mercenaries ever gave him food
Except for Greil, who took him in. Mist played nurse whenever he got hurt. He's got friends and Mist should be as much family to him as Ike is, but they didn't invite Mist along. Where did Mist go? Oh, she went off with her boyfriend. So one of them goes off with their partner and lives the rest of their life with them. Thats totally romantic, but when their sibling does the same? Totally not romantic.