Controversial Fire Emblem: Fates Scene Dropped From Western Releases

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

It's a tired old tactic to imagine anyone who disagrees with you isn't a real 'X' or 'Y'. It's never had any solid basis, really.

The people you disagree with are as likely to be "gamers" as those you agree with. Political opinions are not part of that label.

Keeping the scene in Eastern releases as opposed to Western ones seems fairly political to me.

 

[Logience]

It's a tired old tactic to imagine anyone who disagrees with you isn't a real 'X' or 'Y'. It's never had any solid basis, really.

The people you disagree with are as likely to be "gamers" as those you agree with. Political opinions are not part of that label.

Keeping the scene in Eastern releases as opposed to Western ones seems fairly political to me.

I think you're confusing "political" with "cultural".

 

[Silvanus]

Keeping the scene in Eastern releases as opposed to Western ones seems fairly political to me.

It's a political decision, yes (as well as a cultural one, a pragmatic one, etcetera). I did not say it wasn't; I said that the label "gamer" has no political opinions attached, so the notion that the ones who disagree with you must be "non-gamers" was baseless.

 

[008Zulu_v1legacy]

so the notion that the ones who disagree with you must be "non-gamers" was baseless.

I would think that gamers, true gamers, would want to experience the game as the developer originally intended.

 

[Silvanus]

I would think that gamers, true gamers, would want to experience the game as the developer originally intended.

This is a pure "no true Scotsman".


Out of interest, what makes a gamer a "true gamer"? This sounds pretty close to arbitrary purism.

 

[NPC009]

so the notion that the ones who disagree with you must be "non-gamers" was baseless.

I would think that gamers, true gamers, would want to experience the game as the developer originally intended.

As dumb and awkward as possible!

Anyway, I think the 'original developer's intention' thing is a bit weird, because there are often dozens of people working on a game (hundreds in the case of large triple A games). Sure, you've got a writer (or writers!) writing stuff, but the studio isn't making his/her game. The writer is writing for the company. If the producer, writer or someone else higher up doesn't like what the writer wrote, the writing will be changed. It's the same with art, game mechanics and so on.

When a game is localised, more creative talent gets involved. Translators don't just pull the text through google translate, and no, just translating it word by word doesn't make it more authentic. A good translator tries to interpret the intentions of the original creators. However, some things just don't translate well. For instance, Ike's sister Mist is named something different in the German version, because Mist is the German word for manure. Or shit. I'm pretty sure having a character named Poop wasn't anyone's intention (unless you're 7 and just figured out you can name Link whatever you want).

And sometimes the original ideas are just bad. Do I (or anyone else) need to bring up George Lucas again? The quality of the original Star Wars trilogy is pretty much a result of people being able to keep his bad ideas out of it. These movies were not how he intended them to be, but we love them, because they're science fiction stories so enjoyable they helped define an entire genre.

Besides, there's something downright creepy about shielding creators with the 'as the creator intended' shield, because it implies that creators can and may not be criticised. That's their infallible and their work sacred. This is, of course, utter crap. Creativity itself is not what makes something good. While, we should all defend and value the right to be creative (as it is an extensing of freedom of speech), it's madness to give everything that flows from it the same importance.

 

[Logience]

Should I even mention that the work itself may not even be worth it?

 

[Connor Voskamp]

You see by removing something to "avoid people getting offended" a hell of a lot more people got offended and the game's sales are probably gonna suffer as a result.

 

[Davroth]

I think this is a stupid change. People who are going to buy these games are going to buy them for the unique Japanese weirdness. Fire Emblem is one of those game series that has been going on for so long and has been so weird all the damn time.

If they think that the new potential buyers are worse loosing their old ones over, they are probably right. One change in a game like that won't dissuade the enthusiasts, so yeah! Enjoy your maybe higher profits, Nintendo.

Oh, and you guys can go on about how you think this story beat was dumb or whatever, but you must realize that is not an objective opinion, rather, it's your /personal/ opinion. Don't be so full of yourself. "Smart people wouldn't miss that kind of content anyway" is just a variant on the "no true Scotsman" fallacy anyway.

Speaking of.

I would think that gamers, true gamers, would want to experience the game as the developer originally intended.

This is a pure "no true Scotsman".


Out of interest, what makes a gamer a "true gamer"? This sounds pretty close to arbitrary purism.

It's only arbitrary because gamer has become a catch all term for everyone who plays games, which makes it absolutely useless. In this day and age, playing video games applies to a good 90% of western civilization at the very least. If all it takes to be a gamer is that you played Candy Crush that one time, everyone and their mother is a gamer.

Thus if one were to define what a "true gamer" is, it would have to be the enthusiast of the medium, someone who devotes a notable chunk of their life to the medium.

 

[Infernal Lawyer]

Here's the thing: even assuming that the media is deliberately misrepresenting this scene and it's perfectly explainable if you sit down to listen, regardless of your views on sexuality or w/e... God knows the moral guardians of the U.S. have no time to check their facts when it comes to video games controversies.

I can see it now: some dipshit starts a "Ban this homophobic game" tirade, the same way the "ban the space sex simulator Mass Effect" nonsense started.

Well, maybe I'm exaggerating, I imagine the "won't someone think of the children" crowd is way bigger than the "LGBT stupid-lawful" crowd, but still.

 

[NPC009]

I think this is a stupid change. People who are going to buy these games are going to buy them for the unique Japanese weirdness. Fire Emblem is one of those game series that has been going on for so long and has been so weird all the damn time.

This over-the-top weirdness is a fairly new thing to Fire Emblem. It only recently started with Awakening, really. Before that the series did have quirky support conversations and such, but the level of insanity (and sexuality) was much more limited. Personally, I buy Fire Emblem games because I love the strategy RPG genre. If I wanted otaku pandering stupidity, I play Agarest War instead.

 

[Revnak_v1legacy]

so the notion that the ones who disagree with you must be "non-gamers" was baseless.

I would think that gamers, true gamers, would want to experience the game as the developer originally intended.

So, I imagine you prefer the faceless horror version of AC:Unity then? And unmodded Bethesda games? I'm assuming you view yourself as one of these true gamers.

 

[Erttheking]

You see by removing something to "avoid people getting offended" a hell of a lot more people got offended and the game's sales are probably gonna suffer as a result.

Is there anything out there to support your claim that sales will be reduced because of this? And when I say reduced I mean reduced to any significant degree.

 

[Erttheking]

Here's the thing: even assuming that the media is deliberately misrepresenting this scene and it's perfectly explainable if you sit down to listen, regardless of your views on sexuality or w/e... God knows the moral guardians of the U.S. have no time to check their facts when it comes to video games controversies.

I can see it now: some dipshit starts a "Ban this homophobic game" tirade, the same way the "ban the space sex simulator Mass Effect" nonsense started.

Well, maybe I'm exaggerating, I imagine the "won't someone think of the children" crowd is way bigger than the "LGBT stupid-lawful" crowd, but still.

Ok, let's take a look at it. Woman is attracted to other women and gets faint around them but she can't romance the female main character so apparently she's not "really" gay. We just started and I'm already annoyed. Woman asks male main character for help in dealing with this, and he responds by spiking her drink without her knowledge. So the main character is an asshole. Except the game doesn't portray him as an asshole because we're in a comedic scene. I guess drugging your friends without their consent is considered funny in Japan. The woman sees the genders reversed and falls in love with the MC while seeing him as a woman and then stays in love with him when it wears off. Even if you take the parallels to gay conversion therapy out, this woman can't romance any other women in this game, which draws uncomfortable comparisons to IRL Japan where lesbian relationships aren't viewed as "Real" relationships, but just practice for "proper" relationships with men, and that the woman fell in love with someone because he drugged her. This scene is just a minefield of stupid, pretty heavily rooted in a culture that just doesn't accept homosexual relationships.

Exaggerating? That's an understatement. Considering that there was no movement around changing this scene and Nintendo did it all on their own, so bringing up "Ban this homophobic game" doesn't even work as an exaggeration because there's nothing to exaggerate. Because developers are capable of agreeing with their critics. Something that a lot of people can't seem to recognize.

 

[Silvanus]

Oh, and you guys can go on about how you think this story beat was dumb or whatever, but you must realize that is not an objective opinion, rather, it's your /personal/ opinion.

Much like any opinion, by definition.

It's only arbitrary because gamer has become a catch all term for everyone who plays games, which makes it absolutely useless. In this day and age, playing video games applies to a good 90% of western civilization at the very least. If all it takes to be a gamer is that you played Candy Crush that one time, everyone and their mother is a gamer.

Thus if one were to define what a "true gamer" is, it would have to be the enthusiast of the medium, someone who devotes a notable chunk of their life to the medium.

Righto, but that's not the distinction 008Zulu used. He linked the "true gamer" label to people who agree with him on this particular issue. Don't agree, not a true gamer. That's a truly arbitrary distinction.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Crap. I forgot about this. Lucky (temporarily) for me.

Hey, if you think that's good writing that honestly sounds amazing. Imagine how great everything must be with such standards.

I know, right? It certainly makes for a less belligerent outlook on subjects like this, I'll tell ya that much.

And you missed the contradictory first line then of "She likes girls in a platonic manner." Though I didn't miss his concession, I just decided to not consider a single person saying "She may be bisexual at most, but it's purely platonic towards women" was worth ignoring the multitude of people going on about how completely heterosexual she was. Or do I have to ignore those to be not-pedantic?

In the context of the specific post you're attacking? Yes.

Last time I checked, most of them don't go weak in the knees and faint at the sight of cute girls. They also, last time I checked, tend not to involve drugging the yuri undertones for the sake of making them view the male character as female to fall in love with him.

Er, yeah. That very thing, the weak knees bit, is kind of a trope.

All of her potential supports are (it's animu though, so everybody looks like a girl) male, so it's not a thing limited to the protagonist. So, you're saying that was the character's intent then? Authorial intent seems to be that she's 'straight,' but finds women attractive...to a crippling extent...which, we're all aware, is hyper unrealistic. Also, magic.

There's magic. It's done with a magic potion. Maaaaagic.

Versions of it are, sure. It's. Also. Mostly. Shit.

That's just...like...your opinion, man.

Watched it; blood vessels intact. Turns out when the seeming "lust" doesn't manifest in weakened knees and fainting and you don't follow every last one of them to the point where their future-boyfriend drugs them to make them look like a girl and have them fall in love with said girl, there's less of an issue. But then, I'm not operating in that black and white world of yours where anyone who criticizes Soleil's storyline must pop a blood vessel at every instance of that one shit trope.

So you watched it?

Good! It's cute as fuck, right? Maki's just wonderful.

And it's called hyperbole. I'm not expecting people to collapse after seeing some anime girls twirl about with hearts in their eyes while gazing at a classmate. They don't faint, sure, but we can argue whether there are any weak knees in the crowd.

I agreed on the drugging part. Only bit I could see taking issue with due to the obvious parallels, but we're just seeing this differently. I see love and affection trumping gender with the aid of dubious...get this...MAGIC. You see- I don't know what you see so I'm not going to put words in your mouth.

And again. It's like. Your opinion, man. I actually think the trope's endearing.

Welcome to the internet... and a gaming forum... and a thread about a Japanese animu game, where people take things seriously. Besides that, it's just a thing saying that drugging your friends with mind altering substances without their knowledge results in their incredibly gay ass falling in love with you.

Well yeah. Folks are just so saucy and they're applying their own sensibilities/altering context to suit their interpretations.

It's dumb. All around. And the raaaaaaaaaage here over it is sad, especially since your side has already won anyway.

It's an unnecessary victory lap.

Maybe stop being so crappy about it?

Maybe when people stop whining about how there was nothing wrong with the original scene and how everyone who had a problem with it is just misinterpreting it and being pedantic, they'll stop arguing with said people? But then, some people just can't help but complain when a company releases a statement about there being no spiking a girl's drink or gay conversion therapy in their game.

A "No" would have sufficed.

Edit: Also. I hit post instead of preview. I'm totally paying attention to what I'm doing here.

 

[Davroth]

Oh, and you guys can go on about how you think this story beat was dumb or whatever, but you must realize that is not an objective opinion, rather, it's your /personal/ opinion.

Much like any opinion, by definition.

It's only arbitrary because gamer has become a catch all term for everyone who plays games, which makes it absolutely useless. In this day and age, playing video games applies to a good 90% of western civilization at the very least. If all it takes to be a gamer is that you played Candy Crush that one time, everyone and their mother is a gamer.

Thus if one were to define what a "true gamer" is, it would have to be the enthusiast of the medium, someone who devotes a notable chunk of their life to the medium.

Righto, but that's not the distinction 008Zulu used. He linked the "true gamer" label to people who agree with him on this particular issue. Don't agree, not a true gamer. That's a truly arbitrary distinction.

Differing opinions is no reason to call the intelligence of someone into question, which the implication has been throughout this thread.

And it is a general issue with the term "gamer", it's not limited to how one person uses in this case. One not true Scotsman fallacy doesn't excuse another.

I think this is a stupid change. People who are going to buy these games are going to buy them for the unique Japanese weirdness. Fire Emblem is one of those game series that has been going on for so long and has been so weird all the damn time.

This over-the-top weirdness is a fairly new thing to Fire Emblem. It only recently started with Awakening, really. Before that the series did have quirky support conversations and such, but the level of insanity (and sexuality) was much more limited. Personally, I buy Fire Emblem games because I love the strategy RPG genre. If I wanted otaku pandering stupidity, I play Agarest War instead.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, then. FE has always been very Japanese. And quirky. If you are going to say that's not true, then we can stop this conversation right here.

It's funny, though. How you label this as "otaku pandering" based on this account of what the scene even contains at all. Very telling.

 

[Dr. Crawver]

so the notion that the ones who disagree with you must be "non-gamers" was baseless.

I would think that gamers, true gamers, would want to experience the game as the developer originally intended.

So every mod ever made wasn't made by someone who could consider themselves a true gamer? Anyone who happily buys a re-release or port that changes aspects as doesn't mind about these changes isn't a true gamer?

Honestly, you just said that without even thinking about the implications of what you said, because in reality, practically no-one truly cares what the developer envisioned. What we care about is the final product we get to play.

 

[Davroth]

so the notion that the ones who disagree with you must be "non-gamers" was baseless.

I would think that gamers, true gamers, would want to experience the game as the developer originally intended.

So, I imagine you prefer the faceless horror version of AC:Unity then? And unmodded Bethesda games? I'm assuming you view yourself as one of these true gamers.

Very disingenuous argument to make, since it is the same executive meddling that forces the teams at Ubisoft to churn out unfinished, not properly debugged messes like Unity and Bethesda to push out their games before they were ready, and to make changes like this one. Your examples have absolutely nothing to do with artistic vision, something that more then one Ubisoft employee lamented after the fact. Cursory knowledge of beta testing would tell you as much.

 

[Dr. Crawver]

Oh, and you guys can go on about how you think this story beat was dumb or whatever, but you must realize that is not an objective opinion, rather, it's your /personal/ opinion.

Much like any opinion, by definition.

It's only arbitrary because gamer has become a catch all term for everyone who plays games, which makes it absolutely useless. In this day and age, playing video games applies to a good 90% of western civilization at the very least. If all it takes to be a gamer is that you played Candy Crush that one time, everyone and their mother is a gamer.

Thus if one were to define what a "true gamer" is, it would have to be the enthusiast of the medium, someone who devotes a notable chunk of their life to the medium.

Righto, but that's not the distinction 008Zulu used. He linked the "true gamer" label to people who agree with him on this particular issue. Don't agree, not a true gamer. That's a truly arbitrary distinction.

Differing opinions is no reason to call the intelligence of someone into question, which the implication has been throughout this thread.

And it is a general issue with the term "gamer", it's not limited to how one person uses in this case. One not true Scotsman fallacy doesn't excuse another.

Someones intelligence is called into question? When did that happen?

Saying that something someone likes is dumb is not the same as saying they themselves are dumb. I like transformers one. It's dumb as fuck, but liking it does not automatically make me dumb, nor does any criticism of the film automatically fall to me as well.

And if you're saying we're calling into question the intelligence of the writer? Are we? Taking transformers again, I would never call Bay an idiot. He knows his market, and knows how to sell his product. Man's damn clever if you ask me. Worst I see in this case is a writer didn't take into account the implications of what he wrote. You could argue that makes him a bad writer, but not that he's an idiot because of it. This is one snippet of a game with a lot of writing. Mistakes can and do happen, and maybe this is one of them.

Seriously, people take criticism of work way to personally. Especially considering it's not even your work. It's taking it personally vicariously.