Controversial Tropes vs. Women in Video Games Series Comes to an End

Kameburger

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Hawki said:
WeepingAngels said:
BTW, you too tend to judge actual gamers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman

Kameburger said:
I'm not sure why, but I feel like I want to say "Thanks Anita for getting trump elected," Not for nothing but I kind of feel like it's her fault.
Average Joe has probably never even heard of Anita or Gamergate, or any of that, so, no, you can't blame that on her.

WeepingAngels said:
She picked a fight and some gamers called her out,
How?

WeepingAngels said:
most of which were calm and rational.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zSHz7Thvbc

WeepingAngels said:
As you can see though, more gamers than not are being chivalrous and throwing other gamers under the bus to protect her. The gaming press turned against gamers too (they only shot themselves in the foot). It was even speculated that she faked some of the threats against her to rally support (and her donations). How the fuck can anyone still be defending her?
...what the hell are you on about?

Okay, first of all, you're using the term "gamers" as if the term is a noun rather than a descriptive, so you need to weed out things a bit. Second of all, being chivalrous. Yep - hurling online abuse and shutting down critique is SO chivalrous. Third of all, the speculations of faking threats would never have come up if people hurling abuse didn't generate an ecosystem for it. Four, how can I defend Sarkesian? Simple - everyone has a right to say what they want, games aren't exempt from critique, and no-one deserves to be harassed for having views that are different from someone else's.

WeepingAngels said:
Gamers hating gamers, that is self loathing. Calling each other misogynists. Anita was a poison knife, she was the damsel in distress and too many gamers and journalists turned on each other to protect her sorry ass, she came looking for a fight and found one. You are downplaying her negative influence but I guess I should give you credit for not going as far as some and calling us childish neckbeards or keyboard warriors for daring to question her highness.

I had hoped in time that people would regain their sanity but this thread is proof that they just want to cling to the self loathing chivalrous attitudes that were so prevalent when all of this was current. Perhaps more time is needed.
The hell?

Okay, first of all, you keep using "gamer." I'm not a "gamer." I read books, but I'm not a "reader." I watch films, but I'm not a "filmgoer." I go to stage plays, but I'm not a "stage play goer." If you want to identify as a "gamer," fine, but it's a useless term when describing the entire swathe of the world's population that engages in interactive entertainment. Calling people out for being arseholes isn't self-loathing. If anything, if you belong to a club, and people in the club are being obnoxious, arguably, their fellow club members have the primary responsibility to get them to take a step back.

So, moving on, Anita was a "poison knife." How? She was the "damsel in distress." Again, how? By bringing up the fact that she was harassed and was subject to death threats? You use terms like "negative influence," but where is this negative influence? I don't want assertions, I want actual tangible evidence.

At the very most, by my observation, all Anita has done is critique games. That's it. So, people can subject other art forms to analysis, but games are above such things? And look, you don't even need to agree with the analysis, but usually, in other art forms, the forms of debate take the form of actual debate. Not this kind of garbage that "gamers" spawned.

WeepingAngels said:
You may believe that she didn't do any damage but you would be blind.
Then please, open our eyes.

Lol only gonna respond to the part directed at me but I say that because gamer gate certainly earned brightbart a lot of useful fans, and those people are incidentally pretty trumpy if you visit the old gamer gate watering holes like the kia subreddit. But again I'm not gonna spend a lot of time defending jokes. Have fun battling everyone..
 

WeepingAngels

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Ninjamurai said:
webkilla said:
There we go. It was a bit lengthy, but overall this post is a much better representation of "Feminist Frequency videos are bad, and here's why:" than what a lot of people usually say.

Pointing out holes in logic, deliberate manipulation, and how she ignores context without giving the benefit of the doubt is all a much better way of saying "Here's why you shouldn't take Feminist Frequency videos seriously."

Simply comparing her to Jack Thompson & then going on & on about SJW's and Cultural Marxism isn't going to help anyone, least of all you. Her videos are a majority of flaws & issues but because it became popular to just throw buzzwords straight-back at them instead of actually being thoughtful about it, her videos became somewhat popular & gained a group of people who defend them for no reason.
You sitting in judgement of other posters isn't going to help anyone either. Why didn't you type out a long winded post like you expect everyone else to do?
 

Worgen

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Ninjamurai said:
Worgen said:
Too bad she already destroyed videogames. I know you think you were just playing a video game but you weren't, she already destroyed them. Oh, if only we had sent her more threats, we could have saved them from being destroyed by a few youtube videos.
I kind of wish they did destroy games, so I could instead focus on watching movies or something. I'm so bored with games right now.

But yeah, it's also important to remember what's going on around you. Her videos suck & maybe even influenced some games to suck (Probably not though), but in the end it's just video games. While it's fun to argue & to poke holes in other peoples logic, it's always best not to take it too far & become a zealot for your side.

This is what I was getting at when I criticized anti-Fem. Freq. people comparing her to Jack Thompson. If her shtick was to enforce Feminism by law or something, then there would be more of a point. But that wasn't what she was going for. There are similarities between the two, but just because Fem. Freq. has more followers doesn't mean she's as big & bad as Jack Thompson might have been.
... Then go watch movies and don't play games.

Her vids were fine, they were her critique and she made some decent points, for the most part, they started reaching more as they went on though.

Her point was never that games shouldn't be a thing, it was to temper the status-quo of how women tend to be treated in them. I mean how many times can you save princess peach?
 

Erttheking

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Nazulu said:
I think you're going to have to explain to me how it's hypocritical for me to say that you should actually be engaging with the people who ask you questions. It'd only be hypocritical if I criticized you specifically for telling someone how to write their post, which I didn't. I criticized the manner in which you responded to them, which is different. Hypocrite is a word that means something, you can't just slap it onto every situation.

Hard to show interest in why you wrote your post when getting that reason is like trying to get water out of a rock.

Hard to do when you refuse to meet anyone halfway.

Time stamps. The time in the video where the important thing happens. Like 14:00. I really don't feel like that's asking too much. So now you're saying that not everyone has the time to get when I want, when I'm asking you to point out the important parts of the video you posted? As in, you don't have enough time to watch the video to look for highlights? If you don't have enough time to watch the video, why should anyone else bother?

More uncooperative than confusing now.
 

Falling_v1legacy

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If people thought she was a scammer that pumped out low quality videos, they must have been equally or to even a greater extent steamed at Jordan Owen and Davis Aurini's "The Sarkeesian Effect" colossal failure of a film project to the tune of $7000/ month. You want to talk about badly edited that your twelve year old could do better, The Effect is your candidate. But I think you are being pedantic with the Frequency. It's nothing special, but it's not incompetent.

The accusation that she was trolling 4chan boards, I think is chem trail/ illuminati type conspiracy thinking. If that was true and was so 'successful' of creating a hornet's nest that drove up views, why was the same tactic not used again and again when their view count plummeted in the last year or so?

This really was much ado about nothing from one side. (The other side joined in with money only after there was a big hoopala.) She had her little corner on youtube, wielding her feminist critique butter knife. People descended on her as an angry mob, effectively handing her a machine gun and a chainsaw. I vaguely remember because I had stumbled across her before the whole controversy and each video was in the tens of thousands, not in the hundreds of thousands all the way up to over a million at peak controversy. And if we look at where we are today- what do you know, as the people that disagreed with her ignored her, her view count plummeted. Seems the Frankenstein explanation is better than the 4chan mole conspiracy explanation.

To those are saying 'nobody cares'... sure that's why people are celebrating here and why I amusedly tuned in to Escapist for my weekly Sarkeesian drama thread. Seriously, every week for nearly a year was a new top-most commented thread on Escapist, bemoaning the foolishness of Sarkeesian. It really only faded when it got subsumed by the Quinspiracy and Gamergate controversy. (With yet another plot twist with Anita somehow getting mixed into this next uproar- despite her being neither a game developer, nor a journalist.) Furthermore, no-one cared to make video after video refuting her every point. That never happened either. Also, there was never a feature length documentary created ostenibly on the Effect that Sarkeesian had on video games. Probably just some fools with no support at all- wait. They successfully raised $7000/ month to make a documentary premised on dealing with "The Sarkeesian Effect"? That definitely never happened.

In the end, I was amused. The debates here were funny: "Frequency is a destructive force to video games. Her followers are mindless drones. SHE MUST BE COUNTERED ON HER EVERY POINT!" vs "She's not that bad. Ignore her and she'll go away." Y'all finally ignored her. And she went away. You are welcome.
 

Erttheking

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webkilla said:
She tried to 'force' change by positioning herself as a moral arbiter - as a judge of what is good enough, and what not good enough. Well, she tried.

As for why her videos are bad? My favorite example is her "women in the fridge" video, where she talks about games using plot devices consisting of women getting hurt or killed, as motivations for the player character to get mad/get even/go on a quest of vengeance as a bad thing.

The trick is that she just says that's a bad thing. At no point does she stop and go "You know, wanting to save and help other people is a basic human drive - that its mainly men saving women is a bit one-sided, but ultimately wanting to help other people isn't a bad thing" - no, in her videos it is 100% a bad thing, with nothing good in it. Thats part of why her videos are so bad.
She's talking about the writing in the game. The problem is not that saving people is a bad thing, it's that it's lazy writing. I heard a quote a long time ago that easily describes the problem with this. "When you want to make a woman tragic, you hurt her. When you want to make a man tragic, you hurt a woman." It's a major trend in writing to have a woman character that only exists to get killed or kidnapped to make a man sad. She isn't the one who came up with the term Women in Refrigerators.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge

I won't deny that the editing in her videos was sleazy, the Hitman example was a good one, but she also had a list of games where you can kill prostitutes and on it was Metro Last Light...yeah...you can't do that in Metro Last Light. But the problem is that Women in Refrigerators is a long standing problem. I don't see how her not saying "Well it's human to want to save people," has anything to do with it.
 
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I, like the rest of the world, moved on years ago. I thought this was finished like 2-3 years back. Sarkeesian and her series have already been forgotten about and cast aside like the nonsense they are. Whatever one might say about gamergate, at least the majority of feminists/sjws have moved on to UC Berkeley or wherever else they are now. They have BioWare games which pander/cater to them, the rest of us can play every other game in peace now.
 

Blitsie

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IceForce said:
Pretty hilarious seeing all the celebratory comments regarding this series coming to an end.

One would be forgiven for thinking that these people were celebrating the end of some yearning pestilence or Lovecraftian-esque all-consuming shadow that has loomed large over their lives and completely dominated their thoughts and actions for the last 5 years, ...when in reality it was nothing more than a fairly vapid and mediocre youtube series that very few people really cared about and which has had no real impact or effect on anything.
I was genuinely surprised to see her channel only has 221k subscribers. I was expecting at the very least over a million judging from how seriously naysayers have taken her to the point of some sending death threats.

Now I'm not entirely downplaying her influence, I mean one of Naughty Dog staff name dropped her when talking about their choices regarding the gender of a certain character in Uncharted 4, but it was more of a "what if this character was female?" scenario and they liked the idea after pondering for a bit rather than going "MEN ARE THE DEVIL I HATE ALL MALES PATRIARCHY" moment. But quality of her videos aside, I haven't actually seen anyone being "badly" influenced by her yet, not enough to justify it being like some great depression just ended with her series being over.

I guess irony was the real winner in this one haha, truly her biggest haters were her biggest contributors as they were definitely the ones that gave her the most power and attention. Congrats is in order, for they really played themselves with this one.
 

webkilla

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erttheking said:
webkilla said:
She tried to 'force' change by positioning herself as a moral arbiter - as a judge of what is good enough, and what not good enough. Well, she tried.

As for why her videos are bad? My favorite example is her "women in the fridge" video, where she talks about games using plot devices consisting of women getting hurt or killed, as motivations for the player character to get mad/get even/go on a quest of vengeance as a bad thing.

The trick is that she just says that's a bad thing. At no point does she stop and go "You know, wanting to save and help other people is a basic human drive - that its mainly men saving women is a bit one-sided, but ultimately wanting to help other people isn't a bad thing" - no, in her videos it is 100% a bad thing, with nothing good in it. Thats part of why her videos are so bad.
She's talking about the writing in the game. The problem is not that saving people is a bad thing, it's that it's lazy writing. I heard a quote a long time ago that easily describes the problem with this. "When you want to make a woman tragic, you hurt her. When you want to make a man tragic, you hurt a woman." It's a major trend in writing to have a woman character that only exists to get killed or kidnapped to make a man sad. She isn't the one who came up with the term Women in Refrigerators.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge

I won't deny that the editing in her videos was sleazy, the Hitman example was a good one, but she also had a list of games where you can kill prostitutes and on it was Metro Last Light...yeah...you can't do that in Metro Last Light. But the problem is that Women in Refrigerators is a long standing problem. I don't see how her not saying "Well it's human to want to save people," has anything to do with it.
Friend, it has something to do with context and how you frame an issue

As you note yourself, she likes to frame things that aren't entirely true as fact - and indeed, most of the videos with her are just her opinions on things when you get down to it.

She thinks that games with women being the thing that a male player character have to save/avenge/whatnot is a bad thing.

She has NEVER given any kind of actual evidence to this, other than appeals to emotions. Oh she'll say that influences culture and society... but she has never given any solid proof of this.

Conversely, back in 2015 there was this lovely study that got published: A 3 year long study looking to see if playing video games made you sexist. It found that you did not become so via video games. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25844719

That's another thing about Sarkeesian's vids: They're one-sided. In her videos it is assumed from the getgo that her premise is correct. She never tries herself to demonstrate anything that might prove her wrong, indeed that deceptive video editing and whatnot is a good example of that. If they're supposed to be 'documentaries' then they MUST look at both sides of the argument.

Hell, in one of her earlier vids she straight up said, while talking about the Mario games, that she completely ignores all the non-platformer games like Smash Bros, Mario Kart and whatnot, so she can maintain a fiction that in 'all' Mario games Princess Peach is but a helpless damsel. This is so disingenuous, because if you look at sales stats for mario games, then party games like Mario Kart and Smash Bros make up a huge part of the mario games being sold today - and in those games Peach can kick just as much butt as everyone else.

But we can't mention that... nope, not at all.

When it comes to science, a very important element is fallibility. Your theory must have room for it to be wrong - a theory that cannot be proven wrong is not scientific. Gravity can proven through experiments. Theorems on how to measure the tensile strength of metals can be proven via experiments.

You must always include mention of the things that prove you wrong. Cherry picking your samples is a great way to be branded a liar and a fraud. Sarkeesian, is a fraud.
 

Erttheking

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webkilla said:
erttheking said:
webkilla said:
She tried to 'force' change by positioning herself as a moral arbiter - as a judge of what is good enough, and what not good enough. Well, she tried.

As for why her videos are bad? My favorite example is her "women in the fridge" video, where she talks about games using plot devices consisting of women getting hurt or killed, as motivations for the player character to get mad/get even/go on a quest of vengeance as a bad thing.

The trick is that she just says that's a bad thing. At no point does she stop and go "You know, wanting to save and help other people is a basic human drive - that its mainly men saving women is a bit one-sided, but ultimately wanting to help other people isn't a bad thing" - no, in her videos it is 100% a bad thing, with nothing good in it. Thats part of why her videos are so bad.
She's talking about the writing in the game. The problem is not that saving people is a bad thing, it's that it's lazy writing. I heard a quote a long time ago that easily describes the problem with this. "When you want to make a woman tragic, you hurt her. When you want to make a man tragic, you hurt a woman." It's a major trend in writing to have a woman character that only exists to get killed or kidnapped to make a man sad. She isn't the one who came up with the term Women in Refrigerators.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StuffedIntoTheFridge

I won't deny that the editing in her videos was sleazy, the Hitman example was a good one, but she also had a list of games where you can kill prostitutes and on it was Metro Last Light...yeah...you can't do that in Metro Last Light. But the problem is that Women in Refrigerators is a long standing problem. I don't see how her not saying "Well it's human to want to save people," has anything to do with it.
Friend, it has something to do with context and how you frame an issue

As you note yourself, she likes to frame things that aren't entirely true as fact - and indeed, most of the videos with her are just her opinions on things when you get down to it.

She thinks that games with women being the thing that a male player character have to save/avenge/whatnot is a bad thing.

She has NEVER given any kind of actual evidence to this, other than appeals to emotions. Oh she'll say that influences culture and society... but she has never given any solid proof of this.

Conversely, back in 2015 there was this lovely study that got published: A 3 year long study looking to see if playing video games made you sexist. It found that you did not become so via video games. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25844719

That's another thing about Sarkeesian's vids: They're one-sided. In her videos it is assumed from the getgo that her premise is correct. She never tries herself to demonstrate anything that might prove her wrong, indeed that deceptive video editing and whatnot is a good example of that. If they're supposed to be 'documentaries' then they MUST look at both sides of the argument.

Hell, in one of her earlier vids she straight up said, while talking about the Mario games, that she completely ignores all the non-platformer games like Smash Bros, Mario Kart and whatnot, so she can maintain a fiction that in 'all' Mario games Princess Peach is but a helpless damsel. This is so disingenuous, because if you look at sales stats for mario games, then party games like Mario Kart and Smash Bros make up a huge part of the mario games being sold today - and in those games Peach can kick just as much butt as everyone else.

But we can't mention that... nope, not at all.

When it comes to science, a very important element is fallibility. Your theory must have room for it to be wrong - a theory that cannot be proven wrong is not scientific. Gravity can proven through experiments. Theorems on how to measure the tensile strength of metals can be proven via experiments.

You must always include mention of the things that prove you wrong. Cherry picking your samples is a great way to be branded a liar and a fraud. Sarkeesian, is a fraud.
I'm not talking about her, I don't care for her, but women in refrigerators is a thing, a well documented thing.
 

webkilla

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erttheking said:
*a lot of snips*

I'm not talking about her, I don't care for her, but women in refrigerators is a thing, a well documented thing.
So what?

No really, so what?

I could just as well argue that modern vidya is teaching young men and boys that men's role in video games are to be faceless canon fodder and die by the thousands.

Play any FPS - 99% of the mooks you'll be up against in them will be male. If you're up against a female enemy its damn near always a special unit, a boss, or something like that. Men get to die by the thousands in those same games that Sarkeesian complains about.

But ya, so some women get 'fridged' - is that a bad thing? Do you have actual proof this is a bad thing?

I mean, there are tons of games where male characters also die to kick off plots and events in-game.

The recent Legion expansion to World of Warcraft had a shitload of prominent male NPCs get killed off. No outrage there.

In Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion, the game kicks off with an emperor getting assassinated! but he's just a man.

In the opening sequence of the latest Battlefield game, the WW1 game, you're just put on a battlefield and basically expected to die - a lot - and the 'you' is always a young man.


...but holy shit, if a woman dies it gets a special trope and its a big deal.

Do you sense a pattern here?

Games 'teaching' Male disposability VS women being special, precious and put on a pedestal? But only one of these are a bad thing, right? Hypocrite.
 

nomotog_v1legacy

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webkilla said:
erttheking said:
*a lot of snips*

I'm not talking about her, I don't care for her, but women in refrigerators is a thing, a well documented thing.
So what?

No really, so what?

I could just as well argue that modern vidya is teaching young men and boys that men's role in video games are to be faceless canon fodder and die by the thousands.

Play any FPS - 99% of the mooks you'll be up against in them will be male. If you're up against a female enemy its damn near always a special unit, a boss, or something like that. Men get to die by the thousands in those same games that Sarkeesian complains about.

But ya, so some women get 'fridged' - is that a bad thing? Do you have actual proof this is a bad thing?

I mean, there are tons of games where male characters also die to kick off plots and events in-game.

The recent Legion expansion to World of Warcraft had a shitload of prominent male NPCs get killed off. No outrage there.

In Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion, the game kicks off with an emperor getting assassinated! but he's just a man.

In the opening sequence of the latest Battlefield game, the WW1 game, you're just put on a battlefield and basically expected to die - a lot - and the 'you' is always a young man.


...but holy shit, if a woman dies it gets a special trope and its a big deal.

Do you sense a pattern here?

Games 'teaching' Male disposability VS women being special, precious and put on a pedestal? But only one of these are a bad thing, right? Hypocrite.
how about this for a twist. both are bad and both are sexist. say what. record scratch. gasp.... ya they are doing a set on male sexism.
 

Jarrito3002

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Take me back I remember being excited for it thought it would be interesting overall. The videos were meh to big time stretching. Like the overzealous college feminist getting shoouting matches her mortal enemy the right wing rationalist guy but turned to 11 across the internent.

All it did was make me consfused and feel like a piece of shit and had confused about my personal feelings and world views among other things going on in my life. Made me numb to mostly everything and just wanted all sides to piss off. The dangers of going deep in the internet kids learn from me.

But again I thought she was done along time ago I think this topic should go to the max just for old times sake.
 

gyrobot_v1legacy

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Now that the iron lady is done. I will say this: If she needs a funeral plot, you can give every gamer a shovel and dig a hole to deliver her to satan himself.

My honest opinion is she was part of the problem that drove gaming even farther to the ground. Female character design in general became utterly unattractive over the last five years in the west. Japanese gaming got bashed to no snd for sexism because the press was defending her so hard they will compare Japan to the devil and that has caused an intentional setback in VR VN development (because that is deemed sexist according to Harada).

So long Annie Thatcher, you will not be missed
 

MrFalconfly

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So, has she actually fulfilled a part of her contract?

I mean the deadline was shot to bits long ago, since the original deadline was "hlaf a year", and so far it's been 4 bloody years.
 

Smithnikov_v1legacy

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Ninjamurai said:
I'm a little confused at the part of "...anyone who didn't lockstep with I and II..." Did you mean this in like, if you don't lockstep with saying gaming causes Satan & murder then you are an enemy of gaming? Because even the weirdos who berate you for not being Skeptical? & Rational? enough wouldn't willingly agree with "Gaming causes Satan & murder" no matter how conservative they are.
I meant anyone who didn't lockstep with the political and social right wing.
 

Smithnikov_v1legacy

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RedRockRun said:
She's no different than the reactionary soccer moms and Senate fossils from the 90's who thought that listening to Marilyn Manson and playing DOOM could turn ordinary kids into sociopaths. The only major difference I see is that the wannabe censors of yore were right-wing, and those today are lefties. The self-righteous, "You can't be trusted to do what's best for you," mentality remains unchanged however.
Except the right wing now wants us to forget they did and that they ALWLAYS were on our side...
 

Erttheking

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webkilla said:
erttheking said:
*a lot of snips*

I'm not talking about her, I don't care for her, but women in refrigerators is a thing, a well documented thing.
So what?

No really, so what?

I could just as well argue that modern vidya is teaching young men and boys that men's role in video games are to be faceless canon fodder and die by the thousands.

Play any FPS - 99% of the mooks you'll be up against in them will be male. If you're up against a female enemy its damn near always a special unit, a boss, or something like that. Men get to die by the thousands in those same games that Sarkeesian complains about.

But ya, so some women get 'fridged' - is that a bad thing? Do you have actual proof this is a bad thing?

I mean, there are tons of games where male characters also die to kick off plots and events in-game.

The recent Legion expansion to World of Warcraft had a shitload of prominent male NPCs get killed off. No outrage there.

In Elder Scrolls 4: Oblivion, the game kicks off with an emperor getting assassinated! but he's just a man.

In the opening sequence of the latest Battlefield game, the WW1 game, you're just put on a battlefield and basically expected to die - a lot - and the 'you' is always a young man.


...but holy shit, if a woman dies it gets a special trope and its a big deal.

Do you sense a pattern here?

Games 'teaching' Male disposability VS women being special, precious and put on a pedestal? But only one of these are a bad thing, right? Hypocrite.
I'd argue there's a difference, mainly because men can be more. Yes, men often pick up the role of cannon fodder, but they can also play the role of hero, villain, comic relief, leader, support, intel provider, and all of that within the FPS genre. Men have alternatives. When a woman gets fridged, not so much. They're commonly the only female characte, and if they're more female characters, they have very minor roles. I'm going to take a wild stab and guess that Legion still had plenty of major male characters left by the end.

Even then it's a moot point. The problem is named women dying, for the sake of a man's character arc, when they're the only woman in the story. Female henchmen? Go for it. Exposition Conquistadors gave us women to fight as and against, and it was fine.
Maybe wait until you know my views on something before calling me a hypocrite. K?
 

mxfox408

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Can we just flush the toilet this Anita Sarkisian turd down the toilet of obscurity that she blongs in?
 

Darmani

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LostGryphon said:
It's neat, because after 5 years of this shit, you can get a feel for, if not out right guess, what certain people are going to say about this subject just by seeing their avatar/user name.

Very few surprises here.

Come on, guys.

Why aren't you tired of this song and dance yet?
Not until she admits I'm prettier and I steal her boyfriend. I don't even want him. UGH but she does so I am TAKING HIM