altnameJag said:
webkilla said:
You still haven't shown me where video games like, I dunno - Mario where Princess Peach gets kidnapped - are somehow detrimental to society.
EDIT: and I don't have to prove anything. Sarkeesian are making claims in her videos. She is saying that video games reinforce negative stereotypes about women. She offers no evidence.
The burden of proof is on her. Not me.
That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. Try again
How many
sources would
you like
showing media
reinforcing stereotypes?
Always just
one more?
Do you
have any
logical reason to believe video games would be exempt where movies, tv, or books are not?
Oh dear, someone finally tried to back up their argument here. Oh going through sources - brings back fond memories of when I wrote my master thesis.
and of course, to stay on topic we are certainly still talking about video games here, right? You didn't just try to move the goal-posts and expand our discussion to include ALL forms of media, right? Because that would be really disingenuous, almost tantemount to trying to derail this little debate. I certainly hope that you weren't trying to do that - because that would be naughty.
So, lets have a look.
Your claim: "video games reinforces stereotypes". (again, we were talking video games, not all kinds of media in existance, lets stay on topic)
Lets see how your sources back that up.
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/science-sushi/the-joke-isnt-funny-its-harmful/
- this is a blog. It doesn't really have much content on its own, but it links to more things. I would take this more seriously, if you had linked directly to the relevant things mentioned in this blog post, so I don't have to sift through all the chaff.
- it starts out with being offended over a tiny bit of science fiction, that jokingly talks about how women are so much better shoppers than men. Because that's offensive
- no that's not really relevant here.
- in fact, it doesn't seem to talk much about video games at all.
- oh hold on, here we go:
- it cites a study that claims to prove that reminding young girls that they are girls, lowers their test scores
- hold on, are you citing a source that claims that women are emotionally frail and can't handle challenges as well as men?
(that's like... sexist, isn't it? sexist science?)
Whelp, that is actually an argument against having women shown in video games.
At all.
As in, this study would support the notion of having all video game characters either be gender neutral or male because having female playable characters would make it more difficult for women and girls to play challenging games, if we allow ourselves to go from challenging tests to challenging games. IMO its not that big a leap.
- oh is that not the conclusion I'm supposed to make from that source? I'm sorry, but that's what the study it cited is pointing towards.
- Congratulations Alt, you played yourself. On your first citation. Top kek.
How about we just skip ahead to the next source you link?
http://krytyka.org/gender-stereotypes-in-mass-media-case-study-analysis-of-the-gender-stereotyping-phenomenon-in-tv-commercials/
- krytyka.org? what on earth is this. Oh, its another blog. Lovely
- You know, I was expecting some direct citations of scientific studies and whatnot, not blog posts, but lets have a look
- analysis of gender stereotyping in TV commercials
- wow that sounds totally like they're talking about video games. Oh wait, no they don't
- please only cite things related to video games.
That's two down
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4343312/
- well what do you know, an actual study of sorts
- oh boy did you even read the abstract?
- pardon me, sides are in orbit
Ok, alt - you're good at this. And by 'this' I mean playing yourself.
Here's part of the abstract talking about the results of the study:
"Adolescents who played video games frequently showed decreased concern about the effects that games with negatively stereotyped images may have on the players? attitudes compared to adolescents who played games infrequently or not at all. With age, adolescents were more likely to view images as negative, but were also less likely to recognise stereotypic images of females as harmful and more likely to judge video-game playing as a personal choice."
Breaking that down, you get:
- teens who played vidya cared less and less about what a game MIGHT have on your attitude
- keyword here is might. They didn't prove jack that that games did anything - only that players cared less.
- could it perchance be that they cared less, because they had recognised that they weren't really affected by it?
- its almost as if even teens can tell the difference between video games and reality, and don't start thinking that they have to stomp turtles after playing Mario.
- and when older, they did start caring a little more about some of these negative portrayals, but were less likely to recognise stereotypical images as harmful
- again, almost as if with age they simply figured that saving a princess in a game, while stereotypical, doesn't actually hurt anyone or brainwash anyone into becoming sexist
- the study certainly doesn't prove anything to the contrary
So ya. Congrats, you played yourself x 2, top kek harder: mega hard.
Next sources! (oh this is fun)
http://escholarship.org/uc/item/8xm9j2kf#page-1
"The Impact of Negative Stereotypes & Representations of African-Americans in the Media and African-American Incarceration"
- damn, that sounds very video game related. I can't even get over how video game related this sounds.
- oh wait... its not
- sorry alt, we're talking video games here. That's strike two for totally irrelevant sources.
Next round, batter up:
https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-03/osu-pab031914.php
- ok, points for another actually seemingly relevant source
- "Playing as black: Avatar race affects white video game players"
- hmm, the page only gives a brief overview of the study, everything is in summary
- kinda hard to use a source when you don't have access to all of it. Shame on you for trying to sneak crap like that under the radar
- but ok, lets see what we do have:
The study claims that white college students would be more aggressive after playing violent video games, if they played as black characters, and would have more negative attitudes towards black people, and would link black people more to weapons.
Right, but how did they test this?
They had people play Saints Row 2 with either a black or a white player character.
Whelp - then its a good thing that the Saints Row series isn't a hilariously violent games series, originally designed to be a parody of the GTA series, allowing for extreme feats of exagerated violence and mayhem. IIRC it was in SR2 that you could hijack a tanker truck full of sewage and hose down suburban neighborhoods for in-game cash. Ya that totally sounds like a game that doesn't just beg the players to do violent and stupid things. Great test material (no not really)
Now, with this game they tested a whopping 121 white university students, 60% of which were male. Not that big a sample, and from the way it was written then they were probably all from the same university. That doesn't exactly make the sample very representative.
and results of that test? apparently it showed that the players who played the black characters had stronger negative attitudes towards blacks. Really? How did they discover that?
Apparently the players who played with black avatars were then given an "Implicit Association Test (IAT), which is designed to reveal unconscious bias"
They were tested for thought crime. Good heavens.
They tested so the people who ran the study could make an estimate of what these people weren't even aware of that they were thinking. You do realize that when you've reached the level where you're basically acusing people of thinking things they aren't aware that they're thinking, that you're just making stuff up, right?
You do realize that the notion of unconcious bias has sort of been debunked, right?
here's a nice article from the national review on that:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/443723/implicit-bias-debunked-study-disputes-effects-unconscious-prejudice
and here a very in-depth look at the IAT, questioning its methods and surrounding hype
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2017/01/psychologys-racism-measuring-tool-isnt-up-to-the-job.html
So... that's half of that source in the trash can.
What other test did they do?
Oh... they had 141 white students, 65% female, play two fighting games - and then afterwards they gave the people who had played black characters in those fighting games the IAT.
and surprise surprise, of course those players who had just played fighting games with black characters, associated black people more with weapons.
You know, I know for a very scientific fact that if you show someone a 20 minute documentary about french race car drivers and then ask them afterwards if their association between french people and racing has increased, then you'll find that that has indeed increased.
And again, the IAT test - because gotta map out those thought crimes.
No, that source goes into the trash.
That's five done, and five down - but I'll give you props for trying, especially with the last one. It almost looks legit, until you actually check how they did their study.
Dude, with the IAT I can prove ANYTHING. Give the test to a neo-nazi, and I can give you test results showing that he's secretly a pacifist vegan. Those tests can be interpreted to yield anything. They are so loaded with weasel-words (like saying 'all media' instead of just video games, hint hint) that you can prove or disprove anything with those tests.
But ok, the last five real quick because even I can't stay amused with this for so long:
http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2017/apr/social-media-tools-can-reinforce-stigma-and-stereotypes
- its about social media, not video games. That's strike three for off-topic sources.
source number 7: the "one" link
http://sites.psu.edu/christiercl/2014/04/02/why-stereotypes-are-bad/
- "why stereotypes are bad"
- its a blog post
- it boils down "people like don't like being stereotyped"
- strike four. Did you even try with this one?
https://web.stanford.edu/class/e297c/poverty_prejudice/mediarace/portrayal.htm
- oh, Stanford. Lets get down with that spicy science
- "Portrayal of Minorities in the Film, Media and Entertainment Industries"
- oh...
- its about movies and television
- strike five (that makes half our sources completely off topic, for shame)
source number 9: the "have" link
http://sites.psu.edu/christiercl/2014/04/02/why-stereotypes-are-bad/
- this is the same source as number 7
- how about some unrelated facts, since this source has nothing new to offer?
- Fun fact: I have worked as a teacher
- I would not just fail a student for padding out their assignments with copy-pasta
- I would politely ask them if they seriously thought that they had any business studying.
- maybe you should ask yourself if you have any real business doing discussion dance? Because you're not doing it very well
And finally, the last one:
https://www.gsb.stanford.edu/insights/stereotypes-do-reinforce-status-quo
- oh another stanford, lets hope its better than the last
- "Stereotypes Do Reinforce the Status Quo"
- Blog post
- about stereotypes
- nothing about video games specifically
- but I can see why you find this relevant.
- its referring to a study, but doesn't link to it
- it just summaries
- apparently test subjects were chiefly quizzed on their level of support of 'the current state of gender relations' and the US political and economic systems
- right...
Again, it doesn't look into whether video games teach people these things. It doesn't even mention use of the IAT, which surprises me.
I'll give you this: I'll agree to a certain extent that steretypes can help reinforce the status quo - but you've shown nothing that supports the notion that video games reinforce bad stereotypes.
I'm sorry alt - but you have NOT convinced me. And with over half your links completely irrelevant to the topic of video games, then I think you need to consider simply admitting that you don't really have any proof for what you're claiming.
Oh I'll support the notion that you believe what you're saying is true - but belief is one thing, supporting evidence is another.
How about I give you some spicy counter-arguments, proving that video games do not make you more sexist?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27619379
"The Impact of Degree of Exposure to Violent Video Games, Family Background, and Other Factors on Youth Violence."
- it finds no link between playing violent vidya and youth violence.
- not strictly linked to treatment of women, but if your complaints about women being stereotyped are to be believed, then these games should have resulted in more women being assaulted. I mean, one would think that you'd have tried to prove that playing vidya results in more women being hurt IRL due to negative stereotypes of women being helpless victims?
https://heatst.com/tech/study-finds-video-games-have-no-impact-on-violent-crime/?mod=sm_tw_post
- the URL sort of reveals it all
- similar to the last study, only this is an article summarising another study.
- it does link to the actual study
but ok, lets move away from the "video games make you violent" stuff
http://www.spiked-online.com/newsite/article/videogames-dont-make-you-violent-or-sexist/16849#.VZ_tU_ntlBc
- how about a study showing that video games do not make you sexist OR violent?
- sadly, it doesn't link directly to the study
but I did find this paper from the guy who did the same study:
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/cyber.2013.0245
"Who Believes Electronic Games Cause Real World Aggression?"
- TL
R is that people who don't really play vidya think it makes you more violent. The above papers sort of hint that they're wrong.
And finally:
http://online.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/cyber.2014.0492
"Sexist Games=Sexist Gamers? A Longitudinal Study on the Relationship Between Video Game Use and Sexist Attitudes"
- TL
R is that its a study that ran for THREE YEARS, tested if the same people who played vidya became more sexist because of vidya
- they found no evidence of increases in sexism caused by video games
- feel that burn? that's you having no real proof to support your claims, and me having far more salient documentation to support my counter argument that vidya does make you sexist.
Now, you're free to have a go at the sources I've given and try to discredit them, as I have done the sources you've given - though, from my point of view right now? It looks like you've sort of played yourself, using bad sources, including one that sort of pushed towards a solution I think you would very much disagree with.
Feel free to admit that you can't prove that video games are making people more sexist. I'll await your reply, dreaming of spicy memes and super srs bsns blog posts about hurt fee fees. Oh you are a gem.
and don't you dare go TL
R on this - you gave me ten sources to read through, now its your turn - or you can just admit that you're wrong.
