Core Gamers Mostly Male, Casual Gamers Mostly Female, Says NPD

[Aaron Sylvester]

Nope.

The reason you're imagining you would "appreciate that" is because you are imagining a pretty lady harassing you.

Please imagine this lady sexually harassing you:

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140501150431/walkingdead/images/3/3d/Wat.jpeg

Bingo, so it's only harassment if the harasser isn't attractive. That phenomenon has been known with females for some time now, the "awesome he's totally checking me out" and "omg what a creep" reactions are amusing at best. That sorta complicates things doesn't it?
If that lady hit on me I would probably laugh because of the sheer randomness of such a situation, but don't you think for one second it would turn me a way from the competition or the drive to win. That's what I'm there for. But apparently the same thought process doesn't work with females, if a few words is all it takes to drive her out of the competition then people will do it (1 less person to compete against).

Which brings us back to gaming tournaments - it's the females who need to be kindly accepted and welcomed, it's the females who need the red carpet rolled out for them, it's the females people need to be polite around.
Competition is called competition because it's first and foremost COMPETITIVE and then everything else follows. If females continue to stay away from them (for whatever reason) the notion will remain that they are simply not capable of competition.

There was a rather silly thing in EVO where they had a female-only competition for Street Fighther to encourage more women to come to tournaments. Females were still allowed to join the full-blown all-gender competition (i.e. against males), but males weren't allowed in the female-only bracket.
All that did was drive the notion that even the winners of the female competition weren't "really champions" because they would get destroyed in the all-gender bracket by males. People weren't saying that out loud, but they were certainly thinking it.

Don't tell me about "real women", show me women actually making an effort to put in countless hours training and rising to the top (or at least coming close?). Lets see lots of them everywhere doing it repeatedly. Then I'll believe you.

 

[C.S.Strowbridge]

Why our very own's Critical Miss made a comic strip that explained the situation perfectly by reversing the roles:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/comics/critical-miss/9834-Our-Little-Pony

Actually most guys would appreciate that...

Most men don't have to worry about being raped.

Also, men don't have to worry about being called a fake, simply because they are men. In fact, studies have shown than both men and women will rate a man as more capable than a woman, even if they have the same qualifications.

 

[Guerilla]

If begs the question though... why are some gamers scared that their identities will be swallowed up by casual gamers? As far as I can tell they have no interest in actually calling themselves gamers, and if they do maybe we're giving them less of a chance than they deserve.

I don't care whether a gamer is casual, hardcore, whatever. It's not the Identity I'm afraid of(a gamer is a gamer), it's the dreaded "targeted for a wider audience!!" publisher's keep spewing forth I'm dreading (affecting the games i like).

What do you mean when you say, "targeted for a wider audience!!"?

Does it mean adding more gender / ethnic diversity to playable characters and / or getting rid of sexist / racist crap?

Or does it mean stealing elements from popular games, even if they don't fit? Or for that matter, just cloning popular games?

Or does it mean making a game easier / simpler, so more casual players will play it?

The first one I love, but the other two suck.

While video games as a whole are a mainstream hobby, each game is a niche product. The best selling game of all time, GTAV, sold 33 million units. If it were a movie and sold 33 million tickets, it wouldn't even be the biggest hit of the year at the domestic box office. And it has been a really slow year for monster hits.

Game developers need to stop trying to sell games to the masses (spending $100 million to do so) and instead realize that they should make games aimed at their core audience and don't just copy whatever is the most popular. Also, instead of making a game easier, concentrate on making a really good and engaging tutorial. Make a tutorial so fun that veterans of the genre will want to play it anyway.

That comparison with movies is unfortunate considering that movies don't cost 60$ and that GTAV has a 2 BILLION dollar revenue putting it in the top three of best grossing movies of all time if compared with them.

 

[C.S.Strowbridge]

The reason being, "core videogames" still tend to aim directly to the straight male demographic, while "casual videogames" tend to be much more open to be all-oriented or even female-oriented.

/endofdiscussion

Oh look, more assumptions based on absolutely NO evidence. Wow, I didn't know that videogames are SO sexist that women couldn't find even one game to play for 5-6 hours a week.

I don't call myself a game, despite being considered a heavy core gamer according to this survey, because of all of the sexist / racist crap that happens. I've been called a slut and a whore online more times than I can remember, simply because I was playing as a female avatar. I've been called a ****** while playing as black character. I've never had anyone insult my gender or ethnicity while playing a white male. And when people talk about this, especially women, they are attacked by a significant portion of gamers.

It's not just an opinion when it's supported by scientific research.

Except you are misusing the numbers. The NISVS came out with a study of sexual violence and the MRAs got at it and declared 40% of perpetrators were women. The NISVS had to come out and correct them. THe MRAs could claim they had scientific research backing them up. They didn't.

 

[C.S.Strowbridge]

That comparison with movies is unfortunate considering that movies don't cost 60$ and that GTAV has a 2 BILLION dollar revenue putting it in the top three of best grossing movies of all time if compared with them.

It doesn't matter how much it costs when you are talking about the size of the audience. You don't need make a game that will please the majority of people, because the majority of people are not buying your game. Roughly 100 million people in the United States play games according to this survey. Only 33 million people worldwide bought GTAV. The Tomb Raider remake was aiming for 7 million units sold.

On the other hand, 68% of people saw at least one movie in 2012, or about 225 million. It will probably be about the same this year. The Avengers sold close to 100 million tickets, which isn't even the record. Selling 7 million tickets would only make a movie $57 million. That wouldn't be enough to make the top 50 this year.

This is why I pointed out the NISVS survey and the MRA reaction. Just because you have the numbers doesn't mean you know what to do with them.

 

[Guerilla]

The reason being, "core videogames" still tend to aim directly to the straight male demographic, while "casual videogames" tend to be much more open to be all-oriented or even female-oriented.

/endofdiscussion

Oh look, more assumptions based on absolutely NO evidence. Wow, I didn't know that videogames are SO sexist that women couldn't find even one game to play for 5-6 hours a week.

I don't call myself a game, despite being considered a heavy core gamer according to this survey, because of all of the sexist / racist crap that happens. I've been called a slut and a whore online more times than I can remember, simply because I was playing as a female avatar. I've been called a ****** while playing as black character. I've never had anyone insult my gender or ethnicity while playing a white male. And when people talk about this, especially women, they are attacked by a significant portion of gamers.

And I've been called an asshole, dipshit, fa***, n****, I've received hate mail, I've been stalked, and everything else you can imagine and I'm just a white dude. Welcome to the internet you must be new here, let's all stop playing the victims, it's not that big of a deal.


edit - Story time: I still remember one crazy bastard telling me that he'll strap me to a chair and eat me alive while I'm begging him to kill me. It was over a videogame argument. I had to change my email and a few accounts because he was stalking me everywhere. Lesson learned, don't use the same username in more than one places, some people are freaks. Still though, that's the price I'll gladly pay for anonymity and freedom of speech on the internet.

Except you are misusing the numbers. The NISVS came out with a study of sexual violence and the MRAs got at it and declared 40% of perpetrators were women. The NISVS had to come out and correct them. THe MRAs could claim they had scientific research backing them up. They didn't.

I think you're replying to the wrong person. What does this have to do with the discussion here?

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

Bingo, so it's only harassment if the harasser isn't attractive. That phenomenon has been known with females for some time now, the "awesome he's totally checking me out" and "omg what a creep" reactions are amusing at best. That sorta complicates things doesn't it?
If that lady hit on me I would probably laugh because of the sheer randomness of such a situation, but don't you think for one second it would turn me a way from the competition or the drive to win. That's what I'm there for. But apparently the same thought process doesn't work with females, if a few words is all it takes to drive her out of the competition then people will do it (1 less person to compete against).

Which brings us back to gaming tournaments - it's the females who need to be kindly accepted and welcomed, it's the females who need the red carpet rolled out for them, it's the females people need to be polite around.
Competition is called competition because it's first and foremost COMPETITIVE and then everything else follows. If females continue to stay away from them (for whatever reason) the notion will remain that they are simply not capable of competition.

There was a rather silly thing in EVO where they had a female-only competition for Street Fighther to encourage more women to come to tournaments. Females were still allowed to join the full-blown all-gender competition (i.e. against males), but males weren't allowed in the female-only bracket.
All that did was drive the notion that even the winners of the female competition weren't "really champions" because they would get destroyed in the all-gender bracket by males. People weren't saying that out loud, but they were certainly thinking it.

Don't tell me about "real women", show me women actually making an effort to put in countless hours training and rising to the top (or at least coming close?). Lets see lots of them everywhere doing it repeatedly. Then I'll believe you.

"It's not our fault for scaring you off gaming, it's YOUR fault because you don't try hard enough!". I've heard this argument many times.

You know one thing? Why don't men learn knitting? It's obvious that their brain is not capable of the organization, perseverance, calm and patience required for such a thing. It's not because knitting has been presented as a socially feminine thing, and any man who knits is worried to be mocked or be called gay because he'd be surrounded by an all-female community. No, nope, it's nothing like that. The real reason men don't knit is because their brain lacks patience, lacks control and lacks concentration. /sarcasm

It's less "it's your fault cause you don't try hard enough" and more "it's this way for all of us and we make it so you should be able to". I've been threatened with rape during friendly competitive matches. I'm 6'1" and 180 pounds and a dude. It's just the attitude some people have. When people get this mad it means you're performing successfully and are making them mad so you should take it as praise. If you think guys do not legitimately fear actually being raped, well, that may be but you can still get your ass kicked. It's much more likely for men to have a physical fight with other men than with women, at least. Also, if you actually fear being raped, simply cause it's more common for women than men to be raped, you live in a paranoid bubble. Nobody who says that stuff would actually go and do it. Just like I laugh it off and tell the dude to stop sucking and do better, so should you. The more belligerent people get, the awesomer you are. If you get them to break their controllers/arcade sticks/headphones etc. out of anger you'll be seen as a hero, even! It's really quite a bit of fun and nothing to feel threatened over.


The knitting analogy would work if there were men protesting not being viewed as manly or accepted within the knitting community. I personally don't knit cause I have no interest in creating clothing, since clothing is dull. I believe this is why most women don't compete in games. They simply lack the interest level demanded to devote oneself in a game enough to become competitive, they don't see the worth in it. That they're drive-off-able is show enough. If you're devoted enough that you spend multiple thousands of hours of your life working on something, do you think a few ignorant assholes would be enough to drive you off? They wouldn't have a chance in hell of driving me off of anything I like this much. Same with any other competitive folk I know. The love of the game would instantly overshadow them.

 

[Guerilla]

That comparison with movies is unfortunate considering that movies don't cost 60$ and that GTAV has a 2 BILLION dollar revenue putting it in the top three of best grossing movies of all time if compared with them.

It doesn't matter how much it costs when you are talking about the size of the audience. You don't need make a game that will please the majority of people, because the majority of people are not buying your game. Roughly 100 million people in the United States play games according to this survey. Only 33 million people worldwide bought GTAV. The Tomb Raider remake was aiming for 7 million units sold.

On the other hand, 68% of people saw at least one movie in 2012, or about 225 million. It will probably be about the same this year. The Avengers sold close to 100 million tickets, which isn't even the record. Selling 7 million tickets would only make a movie $57 million. That wouldn't be enough to make the top 50 this year.

This is why I pointed out the NISVS survey and the MRA reaction. Just because you have the numbers doesn't mean you know what to do with them.

Movies cost ten dollars, videogames cost 60$ and last MANY hours, you can't seriously make the comparison between sales and ignore the actual revenue.... It's like comparing car sales to smartphone sales. The fact of the matter is that videogames have become a very popular medium whether you want to accept it or not but it will never have the ease of access of movies so comparison between sales is myopic.

And why do you keep bringing up MRAs? Why do you care so much about them?

 

[Guerilla]

Not to mention that this discussion about GTA V proves one thing. Targeting demographics and ignoring the never-ending feminist complaints actually works and GTAV is the absolute proof. GTA stayed true to form and it paid off with a huge bump in sales compared to the previous version which will become even bigger when the next-gen version arrives.

 

[Requia]

In order to qualify as a core gamer, respondents had to currently play Action/Adventure, Fighting, Flight, Massively Multi-Player (MMO), Racing, Real Time Strategy, Role-Playing, Shooter, or Sport games on a PC/Mac.

Apparently a gazillion ours of The Sims, Civilization, or those MOBA games don't count?

 

[Saetha]

So unreasonably threatened male gamers are still sticking to the completely arbitrary and meaningless core v casual distinction to make themselves better about no longer being the single most important gaming demographic? That's at once unsurprising and very sad.

Whoa whoa, wait - you're saying that only men stick to the casual vs. core argument?

Isn't that kinda sexist?

 

[Saetha]

And... you know... eff that. I'm weary of these discussions. You guys want to believe women do not play real videogames, women aren't competitive, women are, basically, poor inferior creatures unable to understand the joy of gaming? That's fine for me. You go on having that opinion. Because if you have such opinion, it means you don't really know many real women, and I am sorry for you.

Okay, when has anyone said that. When has anyone been "All woman are dumb and anti-competition and should just stay in the kitchen all the time always." People sure as hell haven't been calling women inferior. They haven't even been saying these things apply to all women with absolutely no exceptions!

I mean, you think you're ultra-competitive at MOBAs. That's great! You probably are! No one's saying that you being a woman makes that impossible. Hell, even the study quoted made only said that this is a tendency that the majority of women follow. It's not a blanket, all-or-nothing statement. Why are you interpreting it as such?

You know the only sort of people who are making me embarrassed to be a woman in this community? People like you. People who insist on making such a big deal about our sex. People who can't just do what we're all here for and play some bloody video games.

 

[clinicalPsychologist]

Ummm... you do realize you're arguing against the ACTUAL conclusions of the writers of this study, right? That title isn't some sensationalistic article, it's the actual title and conclusions of the writers and they pretty much agree with the other study that women aren't interested that much in competition. Just accept the facts guys...

Yes, and I can disagree with that conclusion with their experiment used. Great thing about science, happens all the time, scientists really can get nasty about it too

 

[Guerilla]

Ummm... you do realize you're arguing against the ACTUAL conclusions of the writers of this study, right? That title isn't some sensationalistic article, it's the actual title and conclusions of the writers and they pretty much agree with the other study that women aren't interested that much in competition. Just accept the facts guys...

Yes, and I can disagree with that conclusion with their experiment used. Great thing about science, happens all the time, scientists really can get nasty about it too

Well, don't take it personally but I trust the scientists who spend a long time planning this, to reach better conclusions about their experiment than you.

A comment like this reveals the underlying fear that, if women are finally accepted as gamers and the big industry doesn't just focus mainly on the teen straight white male audience, suddenly we won't get games like GTA5! And we won't get huge breasted sorceresses like in Dragon's Crown!

Well.... do you really think if women are accepted as gamers, teens everywhere will suddenly stop being interested in big boobs?

No. The only thing we would get.... is more variety. Games like GTA5 and Dead or Alive will keep existing, and that's a good thing. But we'll also see other things. Never forget that the writer of the popular Uncharted series and of the Tomb Raider reboot are women. I don't think those games were about pink unicorns and buying shoes.

The only thing my comment does is reveal the reality of the situation. Making a product for your customer base and not for a tiny judgmental minority (that btw HATES the game adn would make it unrecognizable if they could) works. If feminists had their way these games certainly wouldn't exist because they supposedly "objectify women" are sexist and apparently spread misogyny.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

It's less "it's your fault cause you don't try hard enough" and more "it's this way for all of us and we make it so you should be able to". I've been threatened with rape during friendly competitive matches. I'm 6'1" and 180 pounds and a dude. It's just the attitude some people have. When people get this mad it means you're performing successfully and are making them mad so you should take it as praise. If you think guys do not legitimately fear actually being raped, well, that may be but you can still get your ass kicked. It's much more likely for men to have a physical fight with other men than with women, at least. Also, if you actually fear being raped, simply cause it's more common for women than men to be raped, you live in a paranoid bubble. Nobody who says that stuff would actually go and do it. Just like I laugh it off and tell the dude to stop sucking and do better, so should you. The more belligerent people get, the awesomer you are. If you get them to break their controllers/arcade sticks/headphones etc. out of anger you'll be seen as a hero, even! It's really quite a bit of fun and nothing to feel threatened over.


The knitting analogy would work if there were men protesting not being viewed as manly or accepted within the knitting community. I personally don't knit cause I have no interest in creating clothing, since clothing is dull. I believe this is why most women don't compete in games. They simply lack the interest level demanded to devote oneself in a game enough to become competitive, they don't see the worth in it. That they're drive-off-able is show enough. If you're devoted enough that you spend multiple thousands of hours of your life working on something, do you think a few ignorant assholes would be enough to drive you off? They wouldn't have a chance in hell of driving me off of anything I like this much. Same with any other competitive folk I know. The love of the game would instantly overshadow them.

Well, your post was interesting, and I'm happy to see we can have a discussion even if we have different opinions.

I'll tell you an anedocte that happened just a couple days ago, playing the MOBA "Smite". I'm in a clan, and at one point, someone asked about my gender. "Does it matter", I said. "No, but are you male or female?". "I'm a woman" I replied. "Wow, and all this time I've called you bro!". "Aha, it's because I don't like telling my gender online. Sometimes players treat you differently, they either call you noob or become overly nice." "Well.... it's true."

Good point about the knitting comparison, you got me. Well, I suppose the reason no man makes a huge deal about knitting is because... knitting isn't sexist per se. It's not like women knit images of submissive, half-naked, perfect man ready to obey a woman's whim, or something.
But videogames are sometimes sexist, in a very immature way. This is the reason of the big sexism debate, and tell you what... I love the fact there's almost too much talk about sexism in gaming. Because it means something is about to change; it means the current situation doesn't sit well anymore.

The most important part is that certain people are trying their best to keep women away from videogames. I dare say Guerrila could be one of them, as his latest comment reveals:

Well, I'll definitely admit you're right about the first part. I have caught myself being nicer than usual to female gamers so that I won't do anything which might be construed as harassment in any way whatsoever. I...don't see the problem though. I mean, while it is fun to be an asshole to people jokingly on occasion while playing a game, at the same time I do acknowledge it's better to just be nice to people. The whys behind it are deep and whatnot, I was raised in a gentlemanly culture, if you wish, so it's just my natural reaction. I'm the guy who'll hold the door for you and look at you funny if you don't wanna go through, as though you're hurting me by not letting me hold the door for you. I'd hardly say it's something inherently about gaming or that it's a bad thing. I have actually annoyed a good friend with such antics and I think she was coming from when you are so I'll tell you what I told her which seemed to satisfy her somewhat. "I'm not doing it cause you can't, I'm doing it cause you shouldn't have to cause you have me with you!".


Annoying and patronizing and whatever it may seem, know it doesn't come from a bad place and dare I say, let us silly old-world European dudes feel useful, there's not gonna be too many of us left in a few years.

 

[Saetha]

Why our very own's Critical Miss made a comic strip that explained the situation perfectly by reversing the roles:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/comics/critical-miss/9834-Our-Little-Pony

Actually most guys would appreciate that...

Most men don't have to worry about being raped.

*Siiiiiigh*

http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2014/04/male_rape_in_america_a_new_study_reveals_that_men_are_sexually_assaulted.html

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/10/131007-sexual-violence-rape-teenagers-sociology/

You wanna try that one again?

Also, men don't have to worry about being called a fake, simply because they are men. In fact, studies have shown than both men and women will rate a man as more capable than a woman, even if they have the same qualifications.

Studies have also shown that people, particularly women, will regard a person as better for being female.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E2%80%9CWomen_are_wonderful%E2%80%9D_effect

I repeat: Wanna try that one again?

 

[Saetha]

You said you wouldn't respond, but given the fact that you've crapped out of this thread several times and came back anyway, I think I'll just reply regardless.

You do realize there's someone here who just openly said that if women get considered a normal part of the gaming community, suddenly games like GTA5 and Dead or Alive won't exist? You do realize this person is saying that videogames are a boy's club and if women get their hands on them suddenly it'll all be pink ponies and no videogame ever will be allowed to show sexy women or violence?

He wasn't saying anything of the sort. He said feminists complained about Rockstar, but Rockstar had no reason to change anything because they still made mountains of cash - listening to their complaints would be fixing something that wasn't broken.

You then took this to mean "Duuuuuuh, gurls want gamez about shus and ponies and they hav cooties ewww groos." You are the one who overreacted, took the assumption YOU made (There is nothing in his post supporting the idea that girls want games about such things) and then shoved your words in his mouth. He never even said anything about the likes of Dead or Alive or "ALL VIDEO GAMES" - he only used the example Rockstar.

You have, in this thread, displayed quite the penchant for overreacting. How can one expect to have a proper debate with you if you arrive at absurd conclusions and then insist it's what someone else believes?

Because yes, I do find that behavior quite embarrassing.

 

[Harpalyce]

Ah yes, desperate recategorizing in order to get the girls out of the clubhouse continues.

If we were doing this per hours played, or by hours played out of total leisure time (which I think is a much better representation of what qualifies a gamer, e.g., somebody who plays video games with the majority of their leisure time), the split would go back to near 50-50.

More sexist white noise, this time in eau de quick-let's-redraw-the-categories.

 

[Requia]

Ah yes, desperate recategorizing in order to get the girls out of the clubhouse continues.

If we were doing this per hours played, or by hours played out of total leisure time (which I think is a much better representation of what qualifies a gamer, e.g., somebody who plays video games with the majority of their leisure time), the split would go back to near 50-50.

More sexist white noise, this time in eau de quick-let's-redraw-the-categories.

Did you like, just boot up the Internet for the first time? Casuals not being real gamers has been a thing for a lot longer than people have been yammering about women gamers being equal in numbers.

 

[Harpalyce]

Ah yes, desperate recategorizing in order to get the girls out of the clubhouse continues.

If we were doing this per hours played, or by hours played out of total leisure time (which I think is a much better representation of what qualifies a gamer, e.g., somebody who plays video games with the majority of their leisure time), the split would go back to near 50-50.

More sexist white noise, this time in eau de quick-let's-redraw-the-categories.

Did you like, just boot up the Internet for the first time? Casuals not being real gamers has been a thing for a lot longer than people have been yammering about women gamers being equal in numbers.

Don't worry, I've been around awhile. The casual vs. "real gamer" phenomenon has always been exclusionary bullshit. It's just rare to get an example so blatant as people moving the goalposts to redefine 'casual' in an oddly arbitrary manner as to reinforce the gender bias they want to have going on and keep women out of the "real gamer" population.