Core Gamers Mostly Male, Casual Gamers Mostly Female, Says NPD

Aaron Sylvester

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"PC gamers are just as likely to be men as they are women, with 51 percent and 49 percent, respectively. They tend to be older, with an average age of 38 years, and affluent, with an average household income of $69k."

Oh hi there meaningless generic ESA statistics that are of no use to anyone. Was wondering where you were gone.

8bitOwl said:
I suppose you've never seen me playing a fighting game or a MOBA. You'd learn a thing or two about women being competitive.
I suppose you've never seen how much my friend loves eating newspaper. You'd learn a thing or two about people who love eating newspaper.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

Here, I'll give you something that sums up women in the competitive gaming space:

 

Guerilla

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San Martin said:
You should make a list of all the reasons why you dislike feminism; it might spark some interesting debate.

I mean this seriously. I good number of your posts have contained "one more reason", and I think you ought to compile them into a list and make a thread out of it.

The resulting discussion would probably just be an argument, but it's worth a try.
I'll be honest, every time I discuss with a feminist I remember another. Maybe I'll start writing them down. So far from today I have anti-scientific behavior in favor of dogma, feminist buzzwords used as an argument, strawman or assumption about my posts in order to reach the point of being offended and use that as an argument, refusal to accept differences between the two genders despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary and the latest discoveries in neuroscience and last but not least anecdotal evidence used as proof against scientific research. This discussion is killing me.
 

Something Amyss

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Guerilla said:
Are you seriously using anecdotal evidence to counter argue scientific studies?
Did you seriously just try and use one researcher's hypothesis as an indicator of science? Because you haven't provided scientific consensus for your claims at all. If that's what you have to offer, no wonder the "feminists" you're complaining about shoot down your science. That's bad science.

8bitOwl said:
Thought I'd tag you since this might actually be a little bit important to your argument.

It always helps to look at sources.
 

Guerilla

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Guerilla said:
Are you seriously using anecdotal evidence to counter argue scientific studies?
Did you seriously just try and use one researcher's hypothesis as an indicator of science? Because you haven't provided scientific consensus for your claims at all. If that's what you have to offer, no wonder the "feminists" you're complaining about shoot down your science. That's bad science.
I actually posted two, what do you want me to do, post an entire thesis because some people here are in denial and will keep moving the goalposts indefinitely? Btw one study alone is vastly, vastly superior to anecdotal evidence.
 

Something Amyss

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Guerilla said:
I actually posted two, what do you want me to do, post an entire thesis because some people here are in denial and will keep moving the goalposts indefinitely? Btw one study alone is vastly, vastly superior to anecdotal evidence.
I only saw the one, but since it still didn't meet the proper criteria, the existence of one other might bring your amount of scientific proof to...One study. Even then I'm doubting it.

I don't expect an entire paper on the subject, but I do expect people who hide behind the "science" label to actually back it up.

Otherwise, it really is no more different than the "race realists."
 

The Great JT

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Can we all just agree anyone who plays games is generally an okay person? Core vs. Casual, guy gamers vs. girl gamers, who cares? Games good, let's just shut up and play together.
 

Guerilla

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Zachary Amaranth said:
Guerilla said:
I actually posted two, what do you want me to do, post an entire thesis because some people here are in denial and will keep moving the goalposts indefinitely? Btw one study alone is vastly, vastly superior to anecdotal evidence.
I only saw the one, but since it still didn't meet the proper criteria, the existence of one other might bring your amount of scientific proof to...One study. Even then I'm doubting it.

I don't expect an entire paper on the subject, but I do expect people who hide behind the "science" label to actually back it up.

Otherwise, it really is no more different than the "race realists."
OK dude keep moving those goalposts. Next goalpost will be asking me a study of 1 billion [http://i.imgur.com/oUYXlR6.jpg] people being tested under the influence of a truth serum just to be sure about the results. And I bet even then you'll find another excuse. And nice comparison there between science and white supremacists, not over the line at all. Not waaaay over the line AT ALL. The comparison is so close to Godwin it can smell his feet.
 
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Guerilla said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
Guerilla said:
I actually posted two, what do you want me to do, post an entire thesis because some people here are in denial and will keep moving the goalposts indefinitely? Btw one study alone is vastly, vastly superior to anecdotal evidence.
I only saw the one, but since it still didn't meet the proper criteria, the existence of one other might bring your amount of scientific proof to...One study. Even then I'm doubting it.

I don't expect an entire paper on the subject, but I do expect people who hide behind the "science" label to actually back it up.

Otherwise, it really is no more different than the "race realists."
OK dude keep moving those goalposts. Next goalpost will be asking me a study of 1 billion [http://i.imgur.com/oUYXlR6.jpg] people being tested under the influence of a truth serum just to be sure about the results. And I bet even then you'll find another excuse. And nice comparison there between science and white supremacists, not over the line at all. Not waaaay over the line AT ALL. The comparison is so close to Godwin it can smell his feet.
I'm sorry to intervene, but... I actually looked at the studies and the one just said that women are more risk-adverse (like, they rather take the sure 50 cent for every task they solved correctly) than the tournament situation when they get 2$, but only if they win.
I don't know how this translates to gaming or general "women don't like competition". I see it more as risk-adversion...
Maybe that would mean women wouldn't play for money as likely as a man, but still 35% of the women in the first study chose the possible-higher reward in the tournament.
I don't see how this translates into singleplayer games etc. though. And not games where you play in teams either... It just says they'd rather take 50$ for good performance than 2$ for being better than others? Maybe the title of the study is misleading.

The second study where they had those children running just was about performance levels - not about enjoying something. I don't see how this translates to games either, I'm afraid. It says when children are running and they are competing with the other gender, boys gain speed and girls tend not to. So I don't see how this translates to having fun playing games at all. All this seems to be more about tournament situations.

Could also be a cultural influence, mustn't been "born" either.

That said, I can say a word or two on gender differences and the scientific study at least in psychology, since I have a Masters Degree in Psychology. I studied this particular topic under a well known psychologist in the field of neurobiological and biopsychological gender differences. The lecture was called "left brain, right brain" and was a lecture about differences in brain hemispheres and also a large part was about gender.

Soooo the conlusion is, yeah, of course there are biological gender differences, but did you notice that often if you don't read the scientific papers themselves but just the news outputs about it it says something like "men are better in mental rotation than women". It doesn't tell you about the effect size (or how big those differences are). So often it is quite overhyped then, since in most cases the intra-group variance is bigger then the between group variance. What this means is: There is a wider range of different performances in each gender than the performance difference average between the genders. The effect sizes are often quite small and shouldn't be overinterpreted. Same goes the other way around, actually, women are a bit better at arithmetics than men but that's the average and doesn't say anything about individual people. The overlap between the genders is just really huge. Second, there is stereotype threat which actually affects the performance but that would go to far, you can easily look that up.
Third, womens brains and the way the hemispheres interact depends on hormone levels. When testing only women on their period, they have the same mental rotation scores than men for example. So it really even depends at which time of the month you're looking.

Long story short: You should always, if possible, read the papers and not only news stories about it or abstracts to see a) what did they really look at? Like I said before, I don't think the studies about competitiveness you linked really translate well to gaming situations where there is no monetary gain or risk involved.
b) How big are reported differences?

Probably they aren't as big as you think and depend on a variety of factors.

Wow I got way off topic here but this discussion just seemed to interesting for me not to join.

I also am a woman and REALLY like to play Dota 2, even though the female character models are really off putting. I tend to play Puck because she is cute. Yeah she is really hard to play effectively though. :) Dota 2 community can be nice, but you have those games were everyone just seems like having a really, really bad day.

Edit: I'm also one of those German commenters who thought about the Nazi party at first thought. Like those three letters (NPD) have pretty serious weight in the German language
 

Maraskeen

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NuclearKangaroo said:
if we want the stats to change there must be more games designed for women, and i dont mean simply having a female protagonist, kinda like otome games in japan

hell certain kinds of casual games might be just that

btw im not implying that girls cant enjoy "hardcur" games as well, of course they can, im just talking about tendencies.
In my opinion at least, designing games specifically for a female target audience would have pretty terrible results in terms of inclusivity... Sure, this might get a wider number of people interested in playing them, but in the end, that's still basically seeing girls as being a separate demographic from the bulk of the industry's target. People (usually) don't design games, even the ballsiest of shooters, to be intended to be played by men. ... Outside of this side of DoA, at least. :D

Now granted, my own attitude towards gaming might influence my opinion. I've never quite recognized myself in the "girl gamer" image, be it as a positive or a derogatory one. In all my years of playing games, I've never really cared about the fact I was kicking a** with a dude or a lady as a main character, as long as it's a well-written one. I've been quite intent in supporting the people who do suffer from their demographic being quasi-absent in the industry, because I understand that those people need representation, and I believe that diversity is a good thing for gaming in general. But if it has affected my own gaming experience, it's only marginally. Which is why the very idea of being singled out for my gender makes my hair crawl, even if it might seem like a good idea.

(besides, otome games are hella cheesy. I'll admit to having played some titles, liked them even, because they can provide with some great laughs... -and I encourage everyone, men and women, to try one on a rainy day-, but it's the Baywatch of video games. It's formulaic, and while there are some people -more power to them- who love it to the point of spending entire afternoons watching reruns, most folks see it as temporary distraction.)



Re : this survey as a whole. Several commenters to this thread have already pointed out how nonsensical the criteria for separating causual and core gamers were - and they are. What to make of the dude that spends 3.5 hours a day playing Bejeweled online? Or the girl that sucks at one particular game, but made it her life goal to beat it, and clocked several hundreds hours in that alone? Are you less of a core gamer if you're playing a console? A bad PC port?
Some people make time a criterium, other go by type of game, equipment or achievements... By this survey's logic, and some other factors too, I surqualify, although I never considered myself "hardcore" by any stretch of the imagination. Point is, imo, there is no clear and stable distinction between one thing and the other - you'll always find more hardcore than you - or, conversely, more casual.

The industry nowadays is huge, and these distinctions tend to become more and more blurry. Individuals and companies will keep on doing them and relying on them, because people need to identify themselves to such-and-such groups, and the human brain is so that we identify by categorizing... but with more and more people playing, it's becoming more and more of a formless blob by the decade.

Of course, the inclusion of new consumers, and the will of certain companies to "cater to a larger-scale demographic isn't without its own risks. I pretty much understand @List's reaction, for instance, given that I shared their fear to some extent (though right now I'm more worried at the sudden success of [Blank] Simulators and the mass appeal for games that are crappy by design as possible cause of drop of qualities in gaming...). But as far as I'm concerned, any kind of catering that distracts from putting effort into a game, its writing or its gameplay is a bad, especially when it touches already-established franchises. And catering is already a thing. The recent acknowledging of a "causual" demographic, and its newfound visibility on the market, might worsen the trend (because it makes that much people to cater to, with interests that may not be the same as those of the "established" gaming scene), but the trend sure isn't new.

Me, I've got beloved series. I've got favorite types of games, even if I played and enjoyed a wide array of games in my life, and will hopefully keep doing so. I really don't care if one specific genre is more popular than others as long as game diversity is maintained and everyone, hardcores and casuals, can play what they want. Publishers ought to understand that "more consumers" doesn't necessarily means "more people to sell the same uniformed one game to" but "more possibilities". And I choose to believe that we, as fans, have a role to play in that too, by responding to them or simply continuing to plesbiscit what we like.



Now, female gamers (That was the topic, right? Sorry for the huge derailment...). Even if the survey's criteria are dumb, the fact that women tend to game less than men I'm pretty sure is still true. I think more girls and women should be gamers ; not for parity's sake, but because video games are pretty sweet, period, and the more the merrier.
Because of that, I feel girls that play video games shouldn't be treated as an oddity. We're neither cosmic exceptions to be celebrated, nor priviledge-smugglers meant to be targeted. In fact, we've got absolutely nothing special.
 

Artaneius

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Dastardly said:
ticklefist said:
Dastardly said:
The real question is, with all of the many casual games, and all of the casual gamers playing them, why do we still lean on this crutch of refering to this other class of games as the "core?"

Seriously, it would be like a guy from Mississippi walking around Kenya talking about how it's amazing there are so many "minorities" there...
You will rue the day that Yahoo Dominoes is considered a "core" game.
Denial doth not an argument make. If most of the people playing (and paying) are casual, that's the new core. If most of the folks in this country voted for Ron Jeremy for president, he'd be president. Doesn't matter if the wizened few think it's a dumb idea.

Now, me? I don't think casual games are some awful thing. Clearly, their existence isn't removing classically "core" games from existence. And I play a handful of goofy games on my phone, which I enjoy greatly. There's just this weird idea that even though MOST gamers play these casual games (which includes but is not limited to stuff like Yahoo Dominoes), the other section of games are still the "real" thing.

The real reason casual games do so well, in addition to being convenient, is that they have broader appeal. Candy Crush, the bajillion versions of Yahtzee and Boggle, Hay Day, you know something they all DON'T have in common? The same old gravelly-voiced white male protagonist.
The real reason why casual games do so well is because duh as the name implies are easy to do and require no skill, effort, or work in general to play. Trust me, if online PC gaming in particular was still like in the 90s where Quake, Starcraft, Warcraft 2, and Ultima Online dominated the scenes respectfully, I would guarantee you that most of these forums would probably quit gaming altogether. If you didn't dedicate your life to them, you lost every single game. There was no other way to actual win or compete at all. It's either be the no lifer or get dominated by the no life. Every online game was like this so you had no choice but to accept your fate as a casual at that time.

Nowadays of course it's much different and casuals now have plenty of ways to escape getting destroyed. Casual games are successful because they shield the casuals from what we did to them way back then. They shield them away from the uber pwnage. Trust me, I would love it if every person playing FB games was suddenly forced to play Quake again. God, that would be a dream come true for every competitive gamer.
 

Timpossible

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Great that we already have 24% females in Core-Gaming. I hope we get to around 50/50 in the next 10-15 years.
I mean 24%! nearly a quarter! In every country with more than 2 political parties 24% in elections would be a big deal.

Topic: Casual vs Hardcore
Fuck it. If you say you like Videogames, you like Videogames and we have something to talk about. This whole "real Gamer" and "Fake Gamer Chick" is just ridiculous. Yes...there are folks who like casual more than AAA-SP or Competetive MP. But that doesnÄt make them less "real" or more "fake". Again: Gaming is no country club where you have to prove something to be a member. I know it's meant to be about how much time you spend with your hobby. But it's not really used that way. It has become some abstract term to allegedly describe how sincere ones love for gaming is.

Topic: Women in Gaming
The Main-Target-Audiance for "Core-Games" are still 14-30 year old males. Women also have to deal with sexist jokes, stupid whiteknighting, unwanted flirting and sincere hostility in games. On conventions and in-game. Some male Gamers drive them away. Some do it because they are stupid children who don't see that they are assholes. Others do it with the actual intention of driving way women. It's not okay and it should be called out.

In my Opinion this whole debate about "Do women really want to play games like battlefield 4/CoD/StarCraft etc.?" Is a figleaf for "We don't want women to have a piece of our cake!".
Even IF just 20-30% of women want to play competetive and/or AAA Games (What I don't believe): We as a community should welcome them and not firstly question their intentions and "realness"
 

Guerilla

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clinicalPsychologist said:
I'm sorry to intervene, but... I actually looked at the studies and the one just said that women are more risk-adverse (like, they rather take the sure 50 cent for every task they solved correctly) than the tournament situation when they get 2$, but only if they win.
I don't know how this translates to gaming or general "women don't like competition". I see it more as risk-adversion...
Maybe that would mean women wouldn't play for money as likely as a man, but still 35% of the women in the first study chose the possible-higher reward in the tournament.
I don't see how this translates into singleplayer games etc. though. And not games where you play in teams either... It just says they'd rather take 50$ for good performance than 2$ for being better than others? Maybe the title of the study is misleading.

The second study where they had those children running just was about performance levels - not about enjoying something. I don't see how this translates to games either, I'm afraid. It says when children are running and they are competing with the other gender, boys gain speed and girls tend not to. So I don't see how this translates to having fun playing games at all. All this seems to be more about tournament situations.

Could also be a cultural influence, mustn't been "born" either.

That said, I can say a word or two on gender differences and the scientific study at least in psychology, since I have a Masters Degree in Psychology. I studied this particular topic under a well known psychologist in the field of neurobiological and biopsychological gender differences. The lecture was called "left brain, right brain" and was a lecture about differences in brain hemispheres and also a large part was about gender.

Soooo the conlusion is, yeah, of course there are biological gender differences, but did you notice that often if you don't read the scientific papers themselves but just the news outputs about it it says something like "men are better in mental rotation than women". It doesn't tell you about the effect size (or how big those differences are). So often it is quite overhyped then, since in most cases the intra-group variance is bigger then the between group variance. What this means is: There is a wider range of different performances in each gender than the performance difference average between the genders. The effect sizes are often quite small and shouldn't be overinterpreted. Same goes the other way around, actually, women are a bit better at arithmetics than men but that's the average and doesn't say anything about individual people. The overlap between the genders is just really huge. Second, there is stereotype threat which actually affects the performance but that would go to far, you can easily look that up.
Third, womens brains and the way the hemispheres interact depends on hormone levels. When testing only women on their period, they have the same mental rotation scores than men for example. So it really even depends at which time of the month you're looking.

Long story short: You should always, if possible, read the papers and not only news stories about it or abstracts to see a) what did they really look at? Like I said before, I don't think the studies about competitiveness you linked really translate well to gaming situations where there is no monetary gain or risk involved.
b) How big are reported differences?

Probably they aren't as big as you think and depend on a variety of factors.

Wow I got way off topic here but this discussion just seemed to interesting for me not to join.

I also am a woman and REALLY like to play Dota 2, even though the female character models are really off putting. I tend to play Puck because she is cute. Yeah she is really hard to play effectively though. :) Dota 2 community can be nice, but you have those games were everyone just seems like having a really, really bad day.

Edit: I'm also one of those German commenters who thought about the Nazi party at first thought. Like those three letters (NPD) have pretty serious weight in the German language
Ummm... you do realize you're arguing against the ACTUAL conclusions of the writers of this study, right? That title isn't some sensationalistic article, it's the actual title and conclusions of the writers and they pretty much agree with the other study that women aren't interested that much in competition. Just accept the facts guys...
 

Guerilla

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8bitOwl said:
Aaron Sylvester said:
"PC gamers are just as likely to be men as they are women, with 51 percent and 49 percent, respectively. They tend to be older, with an average age of 38 years, and affluent, with an average household income of $69k."

Oh hi there meaningless generic ESA statistics that are of no use to anyone. Was wondering where you were gone.

I suppose you've never seen how much my friend loves eating newspaper. You'd learn a thing or two about people who love eating newspaper.
Anecdotal evidence is anecdotal.

Here, I'll give you something that sums up women in the competitive gaming space:


I suppose it never occurred to you that the reason so few women join the "competitive gaming space" is because the male players drive them off. You know almost every single time a woman is in the competitive scene something happens... sexist comments, people trying to ruin this woman's life by spreading rumours on the internet, etc. etc. etc.

Why our very own's Critical Miss made a comic strip that explained the situation perfectly by reversing the roles:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/comics/critical-miss/9834-Our-Little-Pony

And... you know... eff that. I'm weary of these discussions. You guys want to believe women do not play real videogames, women aren't competitive, women are, basically, poor inferior creatures unable to understand the joy of gaming? That's fine for me. You go on having that opinion. Because if you have such opinion, it means you don't really know many real women, and I am sorry for you.
The difference is that the vast majority of men don't blame the lack of bronies on women as their usual easy target, instead they attribute it to the innate differences between the two sexes, as they should. Just like someone can become a brony from the comfort of his home the same applies to competitive gaming and women. "Driving them off" is just another sloppy excuse that as per usual blames men for any problem.
 

Aaron Sylvester

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8bitOwl said:
Why our very own's Critical Miss made a comic strip that explained the situation perfectly by reversing the roles:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/comicsandcosplay/comics/critical-miss/9834-Our-Little-Pony
Actually most guys would appreciate that, not call it sexism or harassment. If that that happened to me I'd take their numbers. It's largely only sexism/harassment when it happens to women. Pretty much the entire concept of "sexism" was created around women being unfairly treated.

So reversing the roles doesn't really mean much since it's primarily a female thing. Not saying that sexism doesn't happen to males, but in 99% of cases it's the female being portrayed as the victim.
 

Guerilla

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8bitOwl said:
[That's fine by me.

You have no idea how much I disagree with your opinion, but I know all I will get if I try to insist is only a rise in blood pressure.

Not worth it.

Carry on. Keep thinking that women just don't like videogames much. (And that they aren't competitive etc.) It's a free world and each person is entitled to their own opinion.
It's not just an opinion when it's supported by scientific research. Keep thinking that your opinion is more important than scientific results because feminism says so.

This is why I was talking about assimilation in the other thread. Either everyone MUST be exactly the same or some people will go in a state of denial trying to even shamelessly oppose science. I've been hearing a lot the last few years about what offends feminists, well you know what offends me as a rational individual? Anti-science behavior.
 

C.S.Strowbridge

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List said:
Fappy said:
If begs the question though... why are some gamers scared that their identities will be swallowed up by casual gamers? As far as I can tell they have no interest in actually calling themselves gamers, and if they do maybe we're giving them less of a chance than they deserve.
I don't care whether a gamer is casual, hardcore, whatever. It's not the Identity I'm afraid of(a gamer is a gamer), it's the dreaded "targeted for a wider audience!!" publisher's keep spewing forth I'm dreading (affecting the games i like).
What do you mean when you say, "targeted for a wider audience!!"?

Does it mean adding more gender / ethnic diversity to playable characters and / or getting rid of sexist / racist crap?

Or does it mean stealing elements from popular games, even if they don't fit? Or for that matter, just cloning popular games?

Or does it mean making a game easier / simpler, so more casual players will play it?

The first one I love, but the other two suck.

While video games as a whole are a mainstream hobby, each game is a niche product. The best selling game of all time, GTAV, sold 33 million units. If it were a movie and sold 33 million tickets, it wouldn't even be the biggest hit of the year at the domestic box office. And it has been a really slow year for monster hits.

Game developers need to stop trying to sell games to the masses (spending $100 million to do so) and instead realize that they should make games aimed at their core audience and don't just copy whatever is the most popular. Also, instead of making a game easier, concentrate on making a really good and engaging tutorial. Make a tutorial so fun that veterans of the genre will want to play it anyway.
 

Aaron Sylvester

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8bitOwl said:
Nope.

The reason you're imagining you would "appreciate that" is because you are imagining a pretty lady harassing you.

Please imagine this lady sexually harassing you:

http://img4.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20140501150431/walkingdead/images/3/3d/Wat.jpeg
Bingo, so it's only harassment if the harasser isn't attractive. That phenomenon has been known with females for some time now, the "awesome he's totally checking me out" and "omg what a creep" reactions are amusing at best. That sorta complicates things doesn't it?
If that lady hit on me I would probably laugh because of the sheer randomness of such a situation, but don't you think for one second it would turn me a way from the competition or the drive to win. That's what I'm there for. But apparently the same thought process doesn't work with females, if a few words is all it takes to drive her out of the competition then people will do it (1 less person to compete against).

Which brings us back to gaming tournaments - it's the females who need to be kindly accepted and welcomed, it's the females who need the red carpet rolled out for them, it's the females people need to be polite around.
Competition is called competition because it's first and foremost COMPETITIVE and then everything else follows. If females continue to stay away from them (for whatever reason) the notion will remain that they are simply not capable of competition.

There was a rather silly thing in EVO where they had a female-only competition for Street Fighther to encourage more women to come to tournaments. Females were still allowed to join the full-blown all-gender competition (i.e. against males), but males weren't allowed in the female-only bracket.
All that did was drive the notion that even the winners of the female competition weren't "really champions" because they would get destroyed in the all-gender bracket by males. People weren't saying that out loud, but they were certainly thinking it.

Don't tell me about "real women", show me women actually making an effort to put in countless hours training and rising to the top (or at least coming close?). Lets see lots of them everywhere doing it repeatedly. Then I'll believe you.