Could an action-RPG work without leveling up?

[Epona]

Yeah, sounds great but have you ever played FF2?

I played for a few hours just a few days ago and built up my stats pretty fast but I was still getting my ass kicked when I stepped into a different enemy zone. Normally I would look at my levels and say "I'll come back in 5 levels" but since there were no levels I had to just guess my way through it. Eventually, after 4 or 5 deaths I turned the PSP off. Levels are important because when a level rises, all stats rise with it. If I were only monitoring strength or HP, i I would still get my ass kicked often.

I never disagreed that levels aren't important?

I am very pro-level, and have been arguing against removing levels. Removing levels would be retarded.

I don't think we are having the same argument.

LOL, apparently not. Sorry.

 

[TehCookie]

Well if you dodge instead of being hit you'd get agility, or if there was a blocking mechanic points could go to that and such. Or it could have different melee weapons that require different stats like daggers inflict more damage with high agility and strength rather that it being based on strength alone. Or having an accuracy/critical stat where if every attack you make connects you get points towards that while if you just flail in combat you have a less change of a critical hit or maybe get stamina to be able to keep attacking or something or other...

Though I'd hate it because it would be impossible to level up a style you have no skill at. In skyrim I was never able to level up my melee since I am terrible at it. Not to mention with the level scaling made that even more difficult since there is no beginner/low level area I could train in. If you can't even pick your perks you couldn't change your playstyle either.

But there's nothing preventing you from taking a whole bunch of hits to gain health, then dodging everything later to gain a whole bunch of agility.

As it is in Skyrim, there's a maximum number of attribute raises you have, and that ensures there is balance and you don't get like 500 hp, 500 magicka, and 500 stamina.

Putting a cap on the system described by the OP would be kidna dicksih because you may want specific attribute levels, but have some ultimately wasted by being forced to dodge thus leveling up your agi, and wasting an attribute point that you may have wanted to spend on health.

In Skyrim there's nothing stopping you from have 100 in all the skills like archery, one handed etc. It could have a cap like that. Besides why would you hate the fact you can grind skills? If you don't like it you don't have to do it, in almost every game you never have to be max level to beat it. Some people just like to get to that level 100.

 

[Epona]

Sure, Zelda and Metroid both do it. Just replace numerical levels with equipment upgrades.

Instead of "Get level X, it is now safe to enter location Y without fear of dying" it's "Acquire equipment X and now you can access location Y".

I actually think it's a slightly better system because it feels much more natural.

Captcha: Skynet is watching. Uh oh.

It's also why Zelda and Metroid are action adventure games and not RPG's.

 

[SajuukKhar]

So only the end result matters and not how you got there ? Interesting.

So your argument is

"it doesn't matter that both let you define you character with equal depth, but that one is closer to D&D and thus inherently better"

interesting.

In Skyrim there's nothing stopping you from have 100 in all the skills like archery, one handed etc. It could have a cap like that. Besides why would you hate the fact you can grind skills? If you don't like it you don't have to do it, in almost every game you never have to be max level to beat it. Some people just like to get to that level 100.

We weren't talking about maxing skills, we were talking about maxing attributes, and Skyrim's system does prevent you from getting maxed attributes. The max amount of HP, Magicka, and Stamina one can get in Skyrim is 900, but its impossible to get maxed stats in all attributes.

Also what was with the "you don't have to max all your skills" thing anyways?

I have no problems with being able to get 100 in all skills, and don't care if people want to grind for them or not.

However, I don't support a system that would allow you to get maxed attributes, or every single perk in Skyrim.

A good skill system would let you max all your skills through work, but prevent you from getting max in all attributes, and getting all "perks" or whatever applicable substitute another game has, to prevent you from getting too godly. The actual skill level is somewhat meaningless considering most of the actual damage you do is via perks/attributes, so stopping people from maxing those is far more important to balance then preventing people from maxing all skills.

 

[kommando367]

To all who mentioned FF2 and similar games, thank you. I'll look into those.

 

[Epona]

To all who mentioned FF2 and similar games, thank you. I'll look into those.

For FF2, get either the GBA or the PSP version. PSP version is much cheaper I think.

 

[DoPo]

I am very pro-level, and have been arguing against removing levels. Removing levels would be retarded.

As in "completely ever" or in this case? Because I'm actually a big fan of systems without levelling and I feel they are at the very leas, on par with levelling. However, yes, I agree that this system would be better with levels, simply because basing everything on organic progression would lead to awkward character advancement. Or at least it's quite prone to having it.

 

[SajuukKhar]

As in "completely ever" or in this case? Because I'm actually a big fan of systems without levelling and I feel they are at the very leas, on par with levelling. However, yes, I agree that this system would be better with levels, simply because basing everything on organic progression would lead to awkward character advancement. Or at least it's quite prone to having it.

I have yet to see a RPG without a leveling system that felt like an RPG, or didn't break down in some way near the end.

If I were to have an example of one, that worked well, I would gladly accept it.

 

[SajuukKhar]

And yet, every single game that has used the D&D ruleset, has always had several highly exploitable uber-builds that broke the entire games balance.

Making your game based off of D&D in no way shape or form prevent exploitable, unbalanced build from showing up.

The ultimate end result of becoming super godlike or not is ultimately solely on the shoulders of the player, no matter if the game uses a D&D ruleset or not.

I always hear stuff like
"well in skyrim I can use this smithing+enchanting exploit to get gear that vastly overpowers anything normally fond in the game so exploring dungeons is pointless"

And all I can say is
"well I can make a uber-charatcer in NWN2 that basically unkillable through a series of stats/class/item combos and that makes every fight a faceroll"
but I don't complain about it because it is a choice.

 

[aguspal]

Why would you want to remove level ups?

Its like removing guns in a FPS game... Well not to that extend, but you get what I am trying to say. I guess they are really necesary... but it is pretty awesome to have one, so why not?

 

[Epona]

Of course you can break every RPG by exploiting it, isn't that part of the charm for some games? The best part of FF8 is that I can draw weak magic, card enemies to avoid leveling up but still gaining AP and then convert that weak magic and items into stronger magic that then makes me a god.

I do have to spend many hours doing that to be able to breeze through the game but it's that exploitation that makes the game worth playing. I could probably get through the game faster by not exploiting it but what the hell...

Other games, like Oblivion, were more fun before you knew how to exploit them.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I wouldn't even know because I'm not the type of player that looks to exploit and break the game like that. But I do know the d&d games I've played are much more challenging and thoughtful & rewarding than the Elder Turds (especially Oblivious & Skyrim) if you play it like a normal human being.

Bethesda should just fully concentrate on the combat system and streamline everything unnecessary (like skills) out of the game. It would be great if Bethesda just dropped their shitty RPG elements entirely and made an open-world action-adventure game with Blade of Darkness combat and maybe some magic. But we know they won't do that because they want to try and please everybody (more $$$) The 'RPG' fans, LOL, and the action crowd.

And when I play old school D&D games I see tons of needless barriers that only make the game harder, and more complex for complexities sake. A lot of what old school D&D based RPGs did is the same as making you have to do algebra problems after you hit the powern-on button on your pc to get it to turn on.

Yes it makes turning on the PC harder
Yes it does require you to think more
Yes you can consider turning on your PC more rewarding after doing that then doing it normally

But does it actually make turning on your PC better or genuinely more deep? Not really.

Complexity should come from boss fights that are well designed, not combat mechanics that are based around trying to screw with numbers in order to get your random chance dice-roll to land a favorable number.

Old school RPGs did make you think more, but not because the game itself had some harder challenge or puzzle that required you to take a moment to think through, it just made you think more because the game devs threw up as many barriers as possible to prevent you from doing anything, and forced you do a bunch of entirely unnecessary math in order to influence a random dice-roll.

Yeah you can add complexity by making if you hit or not a random number, but you can also add more complexity by giving bosses an attack that will always 1 hit kill you but they he used randomly and without warning also.
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also blade of darkness had shitty combat, I wont deny ES has some bad combat, but BoD isn't better.

 

[DoPo]

As in "completely ever" or in this case? Because I'm actually a big fan of systems without levelling and I feel they are at the very leas, on par with levelling. However, yes, I agree that this system would be better with levels, simply because basing everything on organic progression would lead to awkward character advancement. Or at least it's quite prone to having it.

I have yet to see a RPG without a leveling system that felt like an RPG, or didn't break down in some way near the end.

If I were to have an example of one, that worked well, I would gladly accept it.

Bloodlines - point-buy system there. Fable also didn't have levels, per se - generally, punching stuff gets you Physical experience, using magic gives you Magical one and shooting/trading gave you Skill experience. They can be used to upgrade the skills that fall under them (Physical for Strength, Health and Toughness, for example). Kills and quests give you General experience, which you can spend on anything. Barring exploits, it isn't that easy to max everything. Moving away from cRPGs, GURPS is very fond of point buy and probably the best one there with it; FATE doesn't have levels, either; Shadowrun is another one; Dark Heresy is a hybrid, where characters have ranks but it's point buy in all other respects - ranks can only alter the cost for abilities or open up new ones, ranks don't make PCs any tougher or better in anything.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Bloodlines - point-buy system there. Fable also didn't have levels, per se - generally, punching stuff gets you Physical experience, using magic gives you Magical one and shooting/trading gave you Skill experience. They can be used to upgrade the skills that fall under them (Physical for Strength, Health and Toughness, for example). Kills and quests give you General experience, which you can spend on anything. Barring exploits, it isn't that easy to max everything. Moving away from cRPGs, GURPS is very fond of point buy and probably the best one there with it; FATE doesn't have levels, either; Shadowrun is another one; Dark Heresy is a hybrid, where characters have ranks but it's point buy in all other respects - ranks can only alter the cost for abilities or open up new ones, ranks don't make PCs any tougher or better in anything.

I never really enjoyed Fable's system. It felt really.... blegh.... I feel like I get far more choice with Skyrim then I do Fable.

As for Bloodlines, its been SO LONG since I played it I forgot how I felt about that.

I never played FATE, or Shadowrun, or Dark Heresy.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Why does every bullshit criticism of old RPG's see 'number crunching' as some integral part of the combat that makes it too difficult? Dungeon Master? Was that full of 'number crunching'? Might and Magic? Gold Box? Ultima? Sure there were stats and modifiers but to speak as if the combat was some arcane thing which the poor 'average gamer' couldn't be able to work out is a load of fucking shit. Actual combat was for the most part simple to execute-either click on the beast or select an attack from a list and the computer does the rest...what's the fucking problem here? That you have to work out what attacks, weapons, spells work best? That's the REAL 'PROBLEM' with old RPG's isn't it ? That you actually had to THINK during combat encounters instead of clickety fucking click! Right ? "OH NO!, IT'S THAC0! Run boy and girls, he's gonna make our brain hurt!"


It's a paradigme, this "number-crunching" bullshit, nothing more. Media and developers help reinforce the notion that simple addition is so difficult that we're better off spamming the left-click button until the world explodes and we're covered in a pile of steaming achievement-bullshit that tells us how great we are and how fantastic it is that we were able to push that left-click button enough to kill Monster #76468467479


And Blade of Darkness melee combat destroyed Skyrim's, btw. But lets just look at first person games with action combat though for a better comparison.. Dark Messiah, Chronicles of Riddick: Escape From Butcher Bay, Condemned, Zeno Clash and even Dead Island all had much better combat than Skyrim.

When did I ever say that number crunching made it too difficult? Old School RPG number crunch was never too difficult, just entirely unnecessary.

Your so lost in you hatred for anything not D&D your building these elaborate fantasy arguments out of nothing. This is why I don't like arguing with you, you make up all this shit to fuel your own fantasy of how no one likes to think.
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Also, having played Riddick, both Butcher Bay, and Assault on Dark Athena, to completion, I can safely say, its melee combat, wasn't that great either. Riddicks melee combat was mostly just the player character running up and spamming the attack button, occasionally hitting a block button, until the enemy died. You could do those special finishing moves, but they were entirely unnecessary.

Condmned was a FPS whose combat would have broken down the moment you tired to add the weapon diversity from Skyrim, or any RPG into it.

Dead Islands's combat is literally the same as L4Ds, I.e. melee weapons that pass right through enemies and all you do is spam attacks until the zombie died, with some occasional blocking. Again, not that better then Skyrim's.

And I haven't played Zero clash, so I cant comment on it. although from this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JA0uTRHyGh8&feature=related
All I am seeing is
-Normal attacks
-A "power" attack
-A blocking move
-A scripted "kill cam" like attack that doesn't actually result in the enemies death, just taking more damage.
Pretty much everything Skyrim has. the only real difference I see is that character in Zeno Clash over-react to getting punched in a almost old-school arcade fighter way.

You are really just seemingly pulling random games out of your ass to try to hate on Skyrim.

 

[DoPo]

I never played FATE, or Shadowrun, or Dark Heresy.

Those, along with GURPS, are PnP RPGs. I haven't played the Shadowrun video games, so I don't know how much they stay in line with the PnP version, though. And FATE should not be confused with Fate - the latter (sometimes also called FATE) is a Diablo 2 clone. A Diablo 2 clone that's more like Diablo 2 than Torchligh. The FATE RPG (which is used in the Dresden Files RPG, if you're interested) has a free SRD [http://www.faterpg.com/dl/] but basically it uses a different system of advancement than levels or point buy - at certain points characters will be able to change and evolve bit by bit.

GURPS also has a free version GURPS Lite [http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/] if you want to take a look. It's a basic overview of the system but it contains what you need to know.

EDIT: Also, Bloodlines is using a stripped down version of Vampire: the Masquerade - it looks really similar at a glance. Sans dice rolling, that is.

Point is, there are plenty of levelless systems out there, successful ones at that, as well. It's not only D&D and everything that tries to emulate it.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Point is, there are plenty of levelless systems out there, successful ones at that, as well. It's not only D&D and everything that tries to emulate it.

I know there were other systems out there, I just didn't like them , or really haven't had enough experience with them to make an opinion.

Also comparing Vampire: the Masquerade Bloodlines to Vampire: the Masquerade isn't helpful. I haven't looked at the normal Vampire: the Masquerade is an even longer time.

 

[In Search of Username]

Well, adjusting your playstyle to fit a build, or vice versa, is part of the appeal of RPGs. If it was all done automatically they'd be considerably less interesting.

 

[Something Amyss]

The real problem I see with this type of system is that, eventually, every character you play is going to get hit, a lot, turning everyone into massive health monsters.

That and every system I've seen close to this ends up with really shitty options you can get accidentally. This tends to frustrate people, especially if their are still finite slots.

 

[SajuukKhar]

That and every system I've seen close to this ends up with really shitty options you can get accidentally. This tends to frustrate people, especially if their are still finite slots.

That, and having unlimited skill slots makes the game terribly unbalanced.

Its doom in both directions.