Could V for Vendetta challenge the government of 1984

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

V may have toppled the facist goverment of Adam Susan, but if possible could he challenge the governmant of the novel 1984, "The Party"?

If anyone loves these 2 pieces of work, speculate?

Can V challenge and even topple Ingsoc and Big Brother?

Or are they too powerful and influential even for him?

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

Unlikely. Ingsoc has had a lot more time to 'dig in' and make seditious thoughts something that all its people consciously (or learn to subconsciously) avoid, even managing to remove from their language a lot of the very words and meanings V uses in his erudite speeches. He draws on a lot of old culture to raise the people's revolutionary spirit, but Oceania's culture was stripped from it some time ago.

In V's Britain, everyone is just too scared of both the government and the terrorist attacks in the outside world to step up. They're still recognizable as a general public fairly similar to us, merely cowed by fear and corrupt news anchors encouraging conformity and bigotry*. Blowing up a few landmarks and playing banned music isn't going to make Oceania's thoroughly brainwashed people understand concepts that have been outlawed and removed from the lexicon for generations, and the rumours of deviant thought-criminals that V might have reached out to turned out to be a lure all along.

*: Must... resist... urge to include... reference to... Make America White Again... campaign... damn it.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Ok, only judging by the movie, not the comic, but in the V for Vendetta movie, everyone seemingly saw through the government propaganda, they just didn't do anything about it. They wanted the government gone.

In 1984, everyone believed the propaganda, including the government. To the extent that the concept of it being wrong was alien and frightening. They loved Big Brother.

OTOH, V was basically playing on God mode and the whole thing made little sense.

(Again, not read the comic)

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Ok, only judging by the movie, not the comic, but in the V for Vendetta movie, everyone seemingly saw through the government propaganda, they just didn't do anything about it. They wanted the government gone.

In 1984, everyone believed the propaganda, including the government. To the extent that the concept of it being wrong was alien and frightening. They loved Big Brother.

OTOH, V was basically playing on God mode and the whole thing made little sense.

(Again, not read the comic)

The comic is easy to get:

https://www.comixology.com/V-for-Vendetta/digital-comic/48529?ref=c2VhcmNoL2luZGV4L2Rlc2t0b3Avc2xpZGVyTGlzdC9pdGVtU2xpZGVy

And if I found one the Walmart that is in my island mabye its in yours aswell.

 

[Fox12]

Unlikely. Ingsoc has had a lot more time to 'dig in' and make seditious thoughts something that all its people consciously (or learn to subconsciously) avoid, even managing to remove from their language a lot of the very words and meanings V uses in his erudite speeches. He draws on a lot of old culture to raise the people's revolutionary spirit, but Oceania's culture was stripped from it some time ago.

Not necessarily. The only people who were excessively brainwashed were the party members. The proles were just kept sort of dumb. It would be a long shot, but V could potentially reach out to them. They would just need a figure to rally around.

It would be hard, though. Oceania is much larger then England by itself. Even if V got England to rebel, he'd essentially have the entire world attacking him. After all, the other two countries wouldn't want him getting in their way either.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Unlikely. Ingsoc has had a lot more time to 'dig in' and make seditious thoughts something that all its people consciously (or learn to subconsciously) avoid, even managing to remove from their language a lot of the very words and meanings V uses in his erudite speeches. He draws on a lot of old culture to raise the people's revolutionary spirit, but Oceania's culture was stripped from it some time ago.

Not necessarily. The only people who were excessively brainwashed were the party members. The proles were just kept sort of dumb. It would be a long shot, but V could potentially reach out to them. They would just need a figure to rally around.

It would be hard, though. Oceania is much larger then England by itself. Even if V got England to rebel, he'd essentially have the entire world attacking him. After all, the other two countries wouldn't want him getting in their way either.

IF those other two "countries" even exists.

 

[RJ 17]

I've already forgotten what happened on the 5th of November...

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I've already forgotten what happened on the 5th of November...

I know my birthday is right before the 5th of November

 

[Fox12]

Unlikely. Ingsoc has had a lot more time to 'dig in' and make seditious thoughts something that all its people consciously (or learn to subconsciously) avoid, even managing to remove from their language a lot of the very words and meanings V uses in his erudite speeches. He draws on a lot of old culture to raise the people's revolutionary spirit, but Oceania's culture was stripped from it some time ago.

Not necessarily. The only people who were excessively brainwashed were the party members. The proles were just kept sort of dumb. It would be a long shot, but V could potentially reach out to them. They would just need a figure to rally around.

It would be hard, though. Oceania is much larger then England by itself. Even if V got England to rebel, he'd essentially have the entire world attacking him. After all, the other two countries wouldn't want him getting in their way either.

IF those other two "countries" even exists.

I don't see any reason to think that they don't. War prisoners are brought into the nation on trial throughout the whole story, so Oceania is clearly at war with SOMEONE. Furthermore, constant warfare is used as fuel for propaganda, presumably by all three nations. I don't see why Oceania would need to make up several countries in order to fuel propaganda, when real countries serve just as well. The existence of Goldstein may be debatable, but I don't think the existence of the other two countries is ever called into question within the text.

 

[happyninja42]

Well, never read/saw 1984, but the wiki synopsis of it speaks of an organized group that doesn't buy into the hype of Big Brother, and have been working against them for some time. So there is a version of V already in place to some degree.

I don't think V himself would take down the 1984 government himself, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did something like in the story where he galvanizes the people to resist and rebel. I mean, the main character of 1984 did this of his own accord, so it's not like 100% of the population buys the propaganda. Give enough rousing speeches, leak information showing how the government is directly working against the population to keep them subjugated. Show that they are openly lying about important things, and eventually people would rebel. I mean, there was already an organized group doing exactly that in the story so...yeah not really sure why this is such an "out there" idea.

 

[JoJo]

Well, never read/saw 1984, but the wiki synopsis of it speaks of an organized group that doesn't buy into the hype of Big Brother, and have been working against them for some time. So there is a version of V already in place to some degree.

I don't think V himself would take down the 1984 government himself, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did something like in the story where he galvanizes the people to resist and rebel. I mean, the main character of 1984 did this of his own accord, so it's not like 100% of the population buys the propaganda. Give enough rousing speeches, leak information showing how the government is directly working against the population to keep them subjugated. Show that they are openly lying about important things, and eventually people would rebel. I mean, there was already an organized group doing exactly that in the story so...yeah not really sure why this is such an "out there" idea.

Well, about that organised group, spoilers:

Spoiler

The 'group' that the protagonist Winston gets recruited by turns out to be a sting operation by the government. It's left ambiguous whether a real resistance group does exist, or whether they're all a fiction invented by the government to lure in wrongthinkers.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Unlikely. Ingsoc has had a lot more time to 'dig in' and make seditious thoughts something that all its people consciously (or learn to subconsciously) avoid, even managing to remove from their language a lot of the very words and meanings V uses in his erudite speeches. He draws on a lot of old culture to raise the people's revolutionary spirit, but Oceania's culture was stripped from it some time ago.

Not necessarily. The only people who were excessively brainwashed were the party members. The proles were just kept sort of dumb. It would be a long shot, but V could potentially reach out to them. They would just need a figure to rally around.

It would be hard, though. Oceania is much larger then England by itself. Even if V got England to rebel, he'd essentially have the entire world attacking him. After all, the other two countries wouldn't want him getting in their way either.

IF those other two "countries" even exists.

I don't see any reason to think that they don't. War prisoners are brought into the nation on trial throughout the whole story, so Oceania is clearly at war with SOMEONE. Furthermore, constant warfare is used as fuel for propaganda, presumably by all three nations. I don't see why Oceania would need to make up several countries in order to fuel propaganda, when real countries serve just as well. The existence of Goldstein may be debatable, but I don't think the existence of the other two countries is ever called into question within the text.

But I have read from somewhwere that there is some possibility that all this is a ruse.

The War Prisoners are just party members posing as such.

That the government is perhaps just in the UK regions and they are isolated from the rest of the World (Think Japan during the Edo Period)

All the propaganda that Oceania encompassing the Americas and the Pacific and england along with constant wars against these other 2 powers is all a lie to manipulate the people into thinking this is the world they live in.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Well, never read/saw 1984, but the wiki synopsis of it speaks of an organized group that doesn't buy into the hype of Big Brother, and have been working against them for some time. So there is a version of V already in place to some degree.

I don't think V himself would take down the 1984 government himself, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did something like in the story where he galvanizes the people to resist and rebel. I mean, the main character of 1984 did this of his own accord, so it's not like 100% of the population buys the propaganda. Give enough rousing speeches, leak information showing how the government is directly working against the population to keep them subjugated. Show that they are openly lying about important things, and eventually people would rebel. I mean, there was already an organized group doing exactly that in the story so...yeah not really sure why this is such an "out there" idea.

Well, about that organised group, spoilers:

Spoiler

The 'group' that the protagonist Winston gets recruited by turns out to be a sting operation by the government. It's left ambiguous whether a real resistance group does exist, or whether they're all a fiction invented by the government to lure in wrongthinkers.

And that is also an interesting question that throws confusion to the actions and methods of the government.

Are the people they catch really wrongthinkers at heart like they had these thoughts at all or are government purposely making wrongthinkers out of completely innocent people like they want certain people to be Wrongthinkers?

 

[hermes]

Unlikely. Ingsoc has had a lot more time to 'dig in' and make seditious thoughts something that all its people consciously (or learn to subconsciously) avoid, even managing to remove from their language a lot of the very words and meanings V uses in his erudite speeches. He draws on a lot of old culture to raise the people's revolutionary spirit, but Oceania's culture was stripped from it some time ago.

Not necessarily. The only people who were excessively brainwashed were the party members. The proles were just kept sort of dumb. It would be a long shot, but V could potentially reach out to them. They would just need a figure to rally around.

It would be hard, though. Oceania is much larger then England by itself. Even if V got England to rebel, he'd essentially have the entire world attacking him. After all, the other two countries wouldn't want him getting in their way either.

IF those other two "countries" even exists.

Why wouldn't they? I know that in the novel, very little is said of the outside world (and nothing from reliable sources), but at some point they change the target of the war to an entirely different nation and hope no one notice it. Why would they even bother with it if they could use the same made up enemy?

 

[MoltenSilver]

Unlikely. In V for Vendetta we see that the party members are mostly self-serving backstabbers and that the population is already anti-government prone, only obeying out of fears which opens many cracks V shattered. In 1984 it's the other way around, with the party members having the least freedoms and the proles left pacified by other means. In addition the government seems less entrenched in Vendetta: in one scene in Vendetta we hear the council of various body parts (can't remember its real name) talk about how they've detected rises in how many and far people are beginning to doubt the government, whereas 1984 had the telescreens watching in every house with the occupant having no way of telling if they specifically were being watched that moment, or would be the next moment, and any single time you so much as happened to do anything slightly dis-loyal-seeming while yours was on you're in for a visit to the Ministry of Love. And that's just stage 1, soon to be augmented by your own children being taught to love Big Brother more than you and report anything they see you do. In Vendetta the public is cowed into obeying the guys with guns, in 1984 everybody loves Big Brother and knows The Party shall lead them to glorious victory over [del]Eurasia[/del] [del]Eastasia[/del] Eurasia, and that the party can do no wrong (as seen by blindly accepting changes to history). Sure if you put a gun in the face of most people in Vendetta's universe you'd get the same response, but the big difference is you don't even need the threat in 1984, the person legitimately believes it. The next biggest difference is the underclass: in Vendetta we see that Fingermen have apparently unlimited power to abuse those beneath them given that they try to rape Evey in the opening scene and no one acts as if this is unexpected, and so in that situation you have an underclass held together by abuse. In 1984 you have an underclass held together not by fear of their superiors, but by fear of change: the proles of 1984 are given nowhere close to living in luxury yet are given just enough that the fear of losing what crumbs they have is tangible, and then told that will be their fate if [del]Eurasia[/del] [del]Eastasia[/del] [del]Eurasia[/del] Eastasia wins the war. Lotteries are held (with only made up winners so as to not actual elevate any) to keep a perverted hope existing within them.

TlR: In Vendetta V was dealing with a government that might've collapsed even without him between the in-fighting among the elite and the amount of animosity the general public had for it. In 1984 the Party is working towards trapping everyone in a completely static system held together by a massive fear of how things could be worse. V could make a spectacular display being seen for miles around of giving Big Brother the finger and the next day no one would even remember it happened, or remember how it happened differently, because that is the level of deliberate stagnation and faith in Big Brother that has been achieved

 

[Silvanus]

Why wouldn't they? I know that in the novel, very little is said of the outside world (and nothing from reliable sources), but at some point they change the target of the war to an entirely different nation and hope no one notice it. Why would they even bother with it if they could use the same made up enemy?

They could be doing so to help whatever narrative they're trying to run at the time; near the end of the book, the news is relaying information about some supposedly important battle in northern Africa, which is almost certainly bullshit. The war narrative aids the news, so it may change to suit their needs as well. Another possibility is that the periodic switches are made to test Outer Party members, to identify who notices and remove them. The Party is both absurdly controlling and paranoid.

Or it could genuinely reflect an ongoing war. Nothing is certain in the novel. Hell, this totalitarianism may stretch no further than Britain, for all we know, with the Party merely lying about the world outside.

V may have toppled the facist goverment of Adam Susan, but if possible could he challange the governmant of the novel 1984, Ingsoc?

Pedantic note: "Ingsoc" is the guiding ideology of the governing party, not the name of the party or government itself. The party is only ever called "The Party".

 

[K12]

Misspelling is literacy.

The answer is no. In 1984 the government is basically a full-fledged religion and way of life not just a bunch of guys who've managed to take charge. The people living under in Eurasia are barely even individual they're worker bees in service to the hive.

Does anyone think V would be able to go up against Kim Jong-Un?

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

Misspelling is literacy.

What mispelling?

 

[hermes]

Why wouldn't they? I know that in the novel, very little is said of the outside world (and nothing from reliable sources), but at some point they change the target of the war to an entirely different nation and hope no one notice it. Why would they even bother with it if they could use the same made up enemy?

They could be doing so to help whatever narrative they're trying to run at the time; near the end of the book, the news is relaying information about some supposedly important battle in northern Africa, which is almost certainly bullshit. The war narrative aids the news, so it may change to suit their needs as well. Another possibility is that the periodic switches are made to test Outer Party members, to identify who notices and remove them. The Party is both absurdly controlling and paranoid.

Or it could genuinely reflect an ongoing war. Nothing is certain in the novel. Hell, this totalitarianism may stretch no further than Britain, for all we know, with the Party merely lying about the world outside.

Yeah, I know they say so little about the outside world, and they put the reader in such a state of distrust and paranoia, that thinking that is entirely plausible. In fact, there could be nothing but ocean outside Britain and this lie being constructed to enforce loyalty and spot dissidents. In fact, if we are paranoid enough, the entire story could be in a different city that only calls themselves London because the government induce them to. The whole novel could be taking part in a floating city ala Dark City for the amount of information we are given of the outside world...

That is the problem with that theory: yes, it is plausible, and given the lies spew by the government, the reader tends to be open to the possibility. But there is no proof to support one theory over another outside of paranoia and the fact the party would be unabashed of such a feat.

 

[K12]

Misspelling is literacy.

What mispelling?

My mistake there was no misspelling, the message has always been spelled correctly