Cowboy Bebop live-action series makes character Gren nonbinary

[TheMysteriousGX]

Given how Carol and Tuesday shook out, I can buy the explanation that Watanabe just didn't have the terminology he was looking for for Gren

Same thing recently happened in Soul Eater with Crona

 

[Ezekiel]

Most anime characters look obviously white, even when they're Japanese, so I don't know what you're basing this claim on. Spike was actually modeled after a Japanese actor, so making him asian makes perfect sense.

They modeled his hair and part of his nose after him. Barely see the resemblance beyond that. I always assumed he was white because I don't believe I know any Asian characters with German/Jewish names.

Either way, too old. Won't look good fighting.

 

[Ezekiel]

Given how Carol and Tuesday shook out, I can buy the explanation that Watanabe just didn't have the terminology he was looking for for Gren

Same thing recently happened in Soul Eater with Crona

Jupiter Jazz was written by Keiko Nobumoto and directed by Yoshiyuki Takei and Ikurō Satō, so who knows if Gren was Watanabe's creation?

I thought non-binary meant something one identifies at, not hermaphroditism. Gren still seems to identify as a man (even if he dresses up as a woman to fool Vicious and make his statement about what happened in the last part of the story).

 

[Casual Shinji]

They modeled his hair and part of his nose after him. Barely see the resemblance beyond that. I always assumed he was white because I don't believe I know any Asian characters with German/Jewish names.

Either way, too old. Won't look good fighting.

It's some weird space future where nationalities have pretty much ceased to exist, so an asian with a german/jewish name would fit right at home. Also, I never really considered the name Spike Spiegel as german or jewish, just one of those anime names, like Faye Valentine or Jet Black. I don't think anime creators put much thought in the meaning of names that aren't japanese, they just pick names they think sound cool. And they have a big hard-on for german sounding names in general.

As for the fighting... it's a live-action series; I don't think you can expect much in that department regardless of age. All those dogfights are going to pale in comparison to the anime as well. Unless they have Game of Thrones level funding to dig into, but I doubt that.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

It's some weird space future where nationalities have pretty much ceased to exist, so an asian with a german/jewish name would fit right at home. Also, I never really considered the name Spike Spiegel as german or jewish, just one of those anime names, like Faye Valentine or Jet Black. I don't think anime creators put much thought in the meaning of names that aren't japanese, they just pick names they think sound cool. And they have a big hard-on for german sounding names in general.

As for the fighting... it's a live-action series; I don't think you can expect much in that department regardless of age. All those dogfights are going to pale in comparison to the anime as well. Unless they have Game of Thrones level funding to dig into, but I doubt that.

I think the Jewish connection was made more along the lines of his gun (which is an Israeli made pistol) along with his name and a bit of his looks.

 

[Casual Shinji]

I think the Jewish connection was made more along the lines of his gun (which is an Israeli made pistol) along with his name and a bit of his looks.

Yeah, but wasn't Spike born after the Earth got wrecked, making most if not all countries pretty much stop existing? And he was born on Mars, right? I've watched the show a couple of times and I can't say I ever caught anything that suggested Spike had jewish/isreali roots. I don't see it in the looks really either, since he has a pretty typical looking male anime face of that era. Maybe Watanabe intended for there to be this connection, but I always just figured it was the same kind of naming convention most anime with non-japanese characters fell under.

 

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[Casual Shinji]

I always assumed that Spike Spiegel was all symbolism, considering that Spiegel is mirror in German and Vicious is a dark mirror of Spike and what Spike could have been. Just like how Faye Valentine shares a lot of trickster traits with mythological fey (she's also "out of this world" considering she was put into Cryo sleep before whatever disaster hit Earth) and in the end tries to be a loveable person, despite all her flaws and insecurities. And just to round it off: Jet Black is an allusion to the gemstone Jet and the name suggests a man that seems dark and grim but is actually "a real gem" when you polish away the rough exterior.

But I am totally open to always having read too much into those names.

That actually makes a lot of sense, and it's a fun way to look at these characters. I guess I never really bothered to look much into the characters of this show, since I saw it as one of those 'the style is the subtance' type deals, where you just let you subconscious get dragged along with the visuals and sound. I think the closest I got to analyzing a character was Faye's wardrobe being so non-commital and loosey goosey because she doesn't have a concrete image of herself.

In dutch (which I am) 'spiegel' also means 'mirror', but I think the first time I saw Bebop his last name was spelled differently in the subs. It was the early DVD days.

 

[Iron]

Given how Carol and Tuesday shook out, I can buy the explanation that Watanabe just didn't have the terminology he was looking for for Gren

Same thing recently happened in Soul Eater with Crona

What with Carol and Tuesday? Or is this a reference to season 2, haven't watched it yet.

 

[BrawlMan]

For those wondering about Spike's last name. The only reason he has Spiegel as a last name is because Wantanabe thought it would sound cool and had no idea was even a Jewish (to the extent that it was official confirmed that he was not Jewish) name at first. Spike's hair is based of Yusaku Matsuda. I still have no plans to see the live TV version of Bebop, nor ATLA. Those look like disasters waiting to happen.

 

[Iron]

For those wondering about Spike's last name. The only reason he has Spiegel as a last name is because Wantanabe thought it would sound cool and had no idea was even a Jewish (to the extent that it was official confirmed that he was not Jewish) name at first. Spike's hair is based of Yusaku Matsuda. I still have no plans to see the live TV version of Bebop, nor ATLA. Those look like disasters waiting to happen.

Spiegel isn't a jewish last name. It's German

 

[BrawlMan]

Spiegel isn't a jewish last name. It's German

I'm only going by what was confirmed. Wantanabe still picked the name, because it sounded cool, regardless and unaware of where the name came from.

 

[Ezekiel]

Spiegel isn't a jewish last name. It's German

It's a German name that many Jewish families have, which is why I said German/Jewish.

 

[09philj]

It matters less whether the explicit text is maintained and more whether the tone and feel can be adequately replicated. Fargo the TV series has very little to do with Fargo the film in terms of plot, but it still feels appropriate to call it Fargo because it feels like Fargo. I don't think it's likely that the live action Cowboy Bebop will be able to recapture the woozy, melancholy, absurd style of the original, but that is the key, and not this or that superficial alteration.

 

[happyninja42]

I don't really care if they make Gren non-binary, as for me, the rest of the story was the real emotional hit. The story of a soldier, suffering from PTSD, feeling isolated not just because of the experiment done to him, but because of the life he had. It's why the beginning and end of that 2 parter Jupiter Jazz, is so poignant, and is frankly my favorite arc in that series.

An old man on a colony world, sitting up with a young boy, sees a shooting star. The child asks what it is, and the old man gives what is, at first, a very lame religious sounding answer. "A lost warrior, returning home, a poor soul etc etc". Then when you watch the end, and you see what it is, is Gren's starship, burning up in atmo, with his corpse. Because he felt like his life only made sense on that world where he fought. And so now it recontextualizes the old man's opening comment. He was alive during the war that took place there, so he knows the effect it had on the soldiers. And he's probably seen that very thing, for years, as soldier after soldier, unable to cope with the things they did, and had done, commit suicide "coming home" to that planet. And so he tries to phrase it in a way that doesn't upset the child, but also pays respect to the people who fought there in his past.

Given how often I've heard from soldiers who only felt like the world made sense while on deployment, and how adjusting to civilian life often ruined them, this is incredibly powerful.
I honestly forgot he had tits in the anime, as it was such a non-issue for what his real problem was in that arc.

 

[Ezekiel]

I don't really care if they make Gren non-binary, as for me, the rest of the story was the real emotional hit. The story of a soldier, suffering from PTSD, feeling isolated not just because of the experiment done to him, but because of the life he had. It's why the beginning and end of that 2 parter Jupiter Jazz, is so poignant, and is frankly my favorite arc in that series.

An old man on a colony world, sitting up with a young boy, sees a shooting star. The child asks what it is, and the old man gives what is, at first, a very lame religious sounding answer. "A lost warrior, returning home, a poor soul etc etc". Then when you watch the end, and you see what it is, is Gren's starship, burning up in atmo, with his corpse. Because he felt like his life only made sense on that world where he fought. And so now it recontextualizes the old man's opening comment. He was alive during the war that took place there, so he knows the effect it had on the soldiers. And he's probably seen that very thing, for years, as soldier after soldier, unable to cope with the things they did, and had done, commit suicide "coming home" to that planet. And so he tries to phrase it in a way that doesn't upset the child, but also pays respect to the people who fought there in his past.

Given how often I've heard from soldiers who only felt like the world made sense while on deployment, and how adjusting to civilian life often ruined them, this is incredibly powerful.
I honestly forgot he had tits in the anime, as it was such a non-issue for what his real problem was in that arc.

Me too, at first. That's exactly why focusing on that to the point of making it his psychological identify is so lame. They miss the point. But those are the times we live in. Have to be inclusive.

 

[happyninja42]

Me too, at first. That's exactly why focusing on that to the point of making it his psychological identify is so lame. They miss the point. But those are the times we live in. Have to be inclusive.

*shrugs* I mean as I recall that episode, even Gren didn't think much of the fact he had tits, and if you removed it from the episode it doesn't actually change anything, other than removing one layer of shitty stuff his military government did to him. His issues were much larger than 'they gave me man boobs, literally"

Now, I personally don't really care if they make Gren non-binary now, as long as they don't make that the point of issue with the episode. Now, I'm assuming the live action will stick to the original plot points for the various episodes? Or are they making entirely new story elements? I honestly didn't even know they were making a live action until I saw this thread. If they are actually sticking to the OG show plots, and we get a genuine Jupiter Jazz, first, well first they better use that fucking music at the end, because fuck that's beautiful music as he's coming into burn up in the atmo. But second, they'd better make his non-binary not be an issue for the character. I don't care if on the meta level, meaning fans and stuff, that Gren being NB is important, that's fine, that's fans, and they're gonna latch onto what is important to them. But if the shows entire plot hinges on Gren being NB, then I have an issue.

But if they are making an entirely new story, and just plugging in the names as fan service, well, *shrugs* then it's not really Cowboy Bebop, and I don't really care what they change.

 

[Thaluikhain]

But if they are making an entirely new story, and just plugging in the names as fan service, well, *shrugs* then it's not really Cowboy Bebop, and I don't really care what they change.

Don't they have to make lots of changes, though, or otherwise what's the point? You're making a live action Disney remake type thing if you keep it the same. If you want the original, the original is likely to be more like the original, stick with that.

Now, keeping it true to the spirit of the original, whilst changing (and possibly updating it)...good luck, that's always hard.

 

[ObsidianJones]

They modeled his hair and part of his nose after him. Barely see the resemblance beyond that. I always assumed he was white because I don't believe I know any Asian characters with German/Jewish names.

Either way, too old. Won't look good fighting.

Point number one. Japanese have a fascination of Mixed Japanese characters. They usually have foreign names somewhere in their full names.

Mikasa Ackerman

Mikasa Ackerman is a member of the Survey Corps and the top ranked member of the 104th Training Corps. Mikasa Ackerman (ミカサ・アッカーマン Mikasa Akkāman?) is one of the two deuteragonists of the series, along with Armin Arlert. After her parents were murdered by human traffickers, Mikasa was rescued by...

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Asuka Langley Sohryu

This article has a collection of images to further represent its content. To see its gallery, visit Asuka Langley Sohryu/Gallery. Asuka Langley Sohryu (惣流・アスカ・ラングレー, Sōryū Asuka Rangurē?) is a 14-year-old fictional character from the Neon Genesis Evangelion franchise and one of the main female...

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Ken Masters

For the main character of Street Fighter 2010 whose localized name is also Ken, see Kevin Straker. Ken Masters (ケン・マスターズ, Ken Masutāzu?), also known as the Framed Champion (額装されたチャンピオン, Gakusō sa reta chanpion?), is the deuteragonist of the Street Fighter series, first appearing in the original...

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Aya Brea

Aya Brea (November 20, 1972 – December 24, 2010) is the protagonist and heroine of the Parasite Eve video game series, including Parasite Eve, Parasite Eve II, and acting as the false protagonist of The 3rd Birthday. Aya is portrayed as a strong-willed American police officer who becomes...

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.

Giorno Giovanna (Character) - Giant Bomb

One of the sons of Dio Brando and the main protagonist of the fifth arc of Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, Vento Aureo. He wields the Stand Gold Experience.

www.giantbomb.com

Kallen Stadtfeld - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Point the second. Too old


Keanu Reeves, 49 at the time of shooting John Wick.


Charlize Theron , 42 at the time of shooting Atomic Blonde


Liam Neeson, 55 at the time of shooting Taken.

Penultimate Point. Spike has naturally green hair. No nationality on earth has naturally green hair. Ethnic realism was never going to be that big of a point in trying to perfectly capture the character.

Point the Last. Spike Speigel has been questioned for the entire of the show's popularity, with little to no consensus.

Spike Spiegel

Spike Spiegel (スパイク・スピーゲル, Supaiku Supīgeru?) is a bounty hunter on a spaceship called the Bebop and travels through the space with his crew. Before becoming a bounty hunter, Spike was a member of the Red Dragon Crime Syndicate. Spike displayed many talents and abilities, including being skilled...

cowboybebop.fandom.com

Spike was born on June 26, 2044 on Mars.[2] Not much is known about the 27-year-old's family or childhood apart from his grandmother dying before he was born. Some speculate he was an orphan and his parents died when he was young. His racial background has been speculated online to be anything from Jewish, American, Italian, Chinese, or Japanese. It has also been speculated he could be Latino, a light-skinned african or the last Mohican by select online communities

That's all to say... feel free to hate on it. You don't have to have a reason to dislike something. Feelings are subjective.

 

[happyninja42]

Don't they have to make lots of changes, though, or otherwise what's the point? You're making a live action Disney remake type thing if you keep it the same. If you want the original, the original is likely to be more like the original, stick with that.

Now, keeping it true to the spirit of the original, whilst changing (and possibly updating it)...good luck, that's always hard.

I think there is a fine line between adaptations for different medium, and just playing lip service to a source material. I'm fine with them changing things to a point, but I think, at least regarding this specific plot point, IF they decide to stick with the actual story of the original Jupiter Jazz, and gloss over Gren's PTSD and other post-war traumas, and only make it about them being non-binary, I think they will be doing a disservice to the entire story in Jupiter Jazz. If they are just having Gren be in the show, and have them be a soldier from that battle on...I think it was Ganymede? But the entire plot of Jupiter Jazz is just done away with, then it's something different, and I just don't really care. And I'm saying I don't care, not in a negative way, just that I don't have any investment in that character, good or bad, so it's a neutral issue to me at that point.

As a separate issue, I think it's fairly reasonable of them to make that change, as the body horror aspect of "i'm a man, but they made me a woman against my will, look at my freakishness and pity me." angle that was in the original....reeeeaaaally doesn't age well in our current world. There was a lot of that in previous decades, and it isn't the best way to try and touch on the issue of gender fluidity, implying it's an assault and whatnot, which is often how it was framed back then.