CRACKED: "6 Sexist Video Game Problems Even Bigger Than the Breasts"

[broca]

...And with websites that really are feminist like RPS or Kotaku (instead of just publishing a few articles about it from time to time which can easily be ignored like Cracked does) i don't see why liking them in the past, when this stuff was less dominant, and not liking them now after they have changed should create cognitive dissonance.

I ask about cognitive dissonance, because obviously (for RPS anyway) these smart, observant writers didn't just magically get stupid, or decide to jump on a feminist bandwagon.

Ok, i see the problem now. You make two basic assumptions to come to the conclusion that there has to be cognitive dissonance and i disagree with both of them. First, you assume that people think the same way about the RPS writers you do ("they are observant and smart") and then you assume that disagreement with their feminist focus or individual feminist positions means that people think the RPS writers are stupid.

They engaged with the discussion and in their capacity as game journalists, came to the conclusion that these women are onto something. That many of their readers didn't is interesting. The fact that many game journalists are seeing things the feminist way, but many in their audiences aren't, is also interesting.

First, there aren't that many games journalists that are really feminists. Many probably agree that gaming has gender issues, but that doesn't mean that they are feminists, the same way that me thinking that we need better social security doesn't make me a communist. Also, i don't know why you assume that the opinion of a games journalist is worth more than that of his audience, as you know nothing about this audience and how they came to their opinion.

Normally the only differences of opinion you tend to see is when a critic gives a negative review of a game people generally like, but these feminism discussions are something else entirely.

Basically my question boils down to "why do you no longer see eye to eye with those writer chaps? Don't you find that at all strange?" I've got my own theory, but it isn't very flattering for those who disagree with the writers.

I really don't see your point. Someones opinions on video games and on social issues are two completely different things, so that agreeing to just one of them is perfectly valid. Or to put it in your terms: i never saw eye to eye with those writer chaps on social issues (or politics or anything aside from games), so i really don't know why you find me disagreeing with them on this topics strange.

 

[broca]

That article is a brilliant example of the phrase "if you look hard enough for sexism, you will find it". Some feminists can even find sexism/misogyny in a glass of water, it's a rather remarkable ability of theirs. I won't name names, but I'm sure most of us know at least one

I really want to see someone do that now, or for some other item.. like maybe an orange? my cup of tea, why i own a cat...

someone needs to make this a website of its own.

It's not exactly what you're looking for, but perhaps close enough

http://isthisfeminist.tumblr.com/

 

[makano]

My whole opinion on all this warning Do not say TLR The cat in the hat has more words than this and you read that didn't you?

Better start contacting any and all people who write story's and write laws in.
Want a example of what this road leads to? see this
"All fiction that is written henceforth must meet government and Special interest groups authorization to make sure that know one may take offense. A person would face up to 25 to life with no chance of release if found to break any of the guide lines set below

No black characters who fall under the "offensive" label
No women who have "larger" than average breasts
Each work of fiction must have a straight white male as the antagonist
The protagonist must conform to the "minority" standards i.e:
must be bigenderfluid/trans/demisexual
must be a victim of the antagonist
must love feminism
must not use the wrong pronouns to address anyone
must be in a wheelchair/disabled in someway
must not appropriate other cultures:like using any thing connected to native American or anything that may cause offense to another culture."


Do you really want a law like this one day?
Or do you want the freedom to pick what you like?

You Americans all shout about your 1st amendment but this law would take it away. This is where there movement is heading control over what you make up.

Before someone says otherwise i happen to love women i am not a racist nor do i seek to offend anyone i simply love games/books/movies/fiction if we put a quota on fiction who will bother making it? Do you want J.K.Rowling to check if any of her characters offend anyone? mandated by a quota. Am i going to see a movie full of people who have no business being in that situation/timeframe just to fit a damn quota?.

Someones sexual identity/race should not be in the forefront of there problem the only exception to this is if the movie/fiction focused on that aspect. Tell me who the fuck cares if character x is gay when aliens have just blown up the damn sun? tell me please should they all have shirts on that say "I am gay" "i am a woman" "i am a male but i identify as a space donkey" it's not relevant.

 

[keniakittykat]

Okay, can we all please stop labeling Princess Zelda as a damsell? She hasn't been a damsel since the second game! Sure, she has to be saved every once in a while, but the reason she's captured is because she has the triforce of wisdom, divine power or royal position not because she's a pretty lady and the bad guy wants her, or because she's just stolen away from the hero.

In twilight princess (The game the writer used images from). Zelda surrenders to the Twilight invasion is because she chooses to protect her subjects before herself.

Seriously, the legend of zelda is the least sexist game series ever. It has interesting, well rounded characters from all ages, sizes and even species. Almost every important character is female. Sure, Link himself is male, but he would wander around hyrule aimlessly for ages if he didn't get help from someone along his travels

(Navi, Tetra, Midna, Zelda, Fi, Great fairies, Impa, Saria, Malon, Marin, Din, Nayru, Queen Ambi, Telma, Rutella, The old woman, the prostitute from the second game, All of them female)

 

[BQE]

I am noticing a trend.

• Person A: News about something relating to women. Use the word bandwagon. Be as dismissive as possible. Laugh. Pretend to ask for opinions.
  
  Person B: Bring up the same arguments that have been said over and over and over and over.
  
  Person A: Bandwagon. Dismissive. Don't care. Bandwagon. Laugh. Bandwagon.
  
  Repeat thread until... forever.

It's pretty clear almost no one replying to these threads is interested in talking to anyone. It's pretty clear they are simply interested in flexing and shouting their words like it's a Youtube comment. I don't remember ever actually seeing a real discussion wherein ideas are exchanged and thoughts pondered. Questions are loaded. Minds are made. Conversation is a trap.

What do you think constitutes a constructive conversation? (Also why should every thread have some purpose or progressive end goal? A platform for people to say what they want about the topic is surely just as legitimate a use as any other?)

A thread "with no purpose or progressive goal" is just that - purposeless. I despise this aspect of the digital age. Now that (almost) everyone in the developed world has constant access to a multitude of visible social mediums -- Twitter, Facebook, Youtube, internet forums, etc. -- we've got this grossly ego fueled generations that simply want to say words as often as possible. Browse Youtube. Browse this forum. Browse Facebook. Just look around. There's a cavalcade of people genuinely saying nothing of any relevance, just because they can.

I first noticed this on Youtube. I began to wonder why some people would comment the way they did. I would see things like this: "I like that brand of shoe." I'd stop and think to myself. What is this person actually trying to do? Do they think anyone cares that they like that brand of shoe in some music video? Were they hoping to share a conversation about the shoe? What has been gained by them taking the time to type out those words?

Twitter is even worse. People just type things they see or think. What is it about saying your opinion that interests? People just say shit. I don't understand. We're social creatures. We like to talk. But this isn't talking. This is people simply saying what they thing and leaving it at that. This isn't an invitation to debate. A sharing of ideas. A kind word to a stranger. This is just something they blissfully spew out and then walk away from.

To bring it back around - this type of mentality has extended to actual conversation, where now, in places like this, people say things they've no interested in logically defending and show no attempt to ever consider other information or open their mind. I don't expect everyone to be swayed by every argument. But when the majority of dialog seems to be "This is my opinion." "Well this is mine." "Well you're wrong." "No you." I have to stop to wonder why we all exist lol

Oh I love you! I've been waiting to see other people realize and be disgusted by the absolutely horrifying waste of words and space being done these days! This particular phenomenon has been bothering me especially on this site. I see so many threads where things aren't really being said, or people who have a post count in the thousands simply due to slack-jawed concordance. I typically try to refrain some entering a conversation I feel I can't add something to, or take something away from.

That being said, I really appreciate you bringing light to this and may have to record your discourse for later use. If you don't mind of course.

 

[Moth_Monk]

It's not a waste of space. It's digital not physical, after all. The threads on the Escapist probably constitute a mere, few MB - at the very most. It's not like it's being printed on tree-skin, right?

 

[Lady Larunai]

I do find it funny that I got an advert for breast enhancement cream at the bottom of the article

Breast enhancement...cream?

Is that real? Does it work?!!1

Probably as much as the penis enhancement pills in most peoples junk mail would.

 

[xdiesp]

Just politically correctness gone wrong. The same people would be burning books, given enough power (certainly all books from male-dominated ages have something wrong in them right?).

 

[BrainWalker]

I don't think people who are opposed to discussions of sexism in gaming and make ridiculously reductive counter-arguments aren't actually reading anything that people with differing opinions and/or experiences are trying to say. That is at the heart of the problem and serves to perpetuate it.

 

[VondeVon]

Although I think the Last of Us objection missed the point entirely, I think the rest of them are thought-provoking at worst, pretty spot on at best.

 

[Naeo]

I saw that article a few days ago when it went up.

I don't agree with quite everything in it, but I think it brings up some interesting points for consideration all the same. Particularly #6, which isn't a point I'd heard brought up before (but then, I am admittedly isolated from the whole "sexism in games" discussion in general). By the way, based on skimming a page or two of the topic, I want to offer my interpretation of what #6 was. It didn't seem to be the broad-stroke "female relying on male = sexism," but rather pointing out that female characters who were completely self-reliant initially turn into (or move towards) the "helpless damsel" who suddenly can't protect themself and needs a male figure to do that for them. I haven't played The Last of Us of Bioshock: Infinite, so I can't speak to the accuracy of those examples here, but the argument was a bit more than just "the woman relies on the man for something SEXISM INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM". It was "self-reliant woman loses self-reliance when a man shows up and has to take care of her".

 

[jamail77]

[snip] I haven't played The Last of Us o[r] Bioshock: Infinite, so I can't speak to the accuracy of those examples here, but the argument was a bit more than just "the woman relies on the man for something SEXISM INHERENT IN THE SYSTEM". It was "self-reliant woman loses self-reliance when a man shows up and has to take care of her".

Having played The Last of Us (but not BioShock: Infinite), I can tell you it is pretty inaccurate/misinterpreted. It's one thing if you have a certain perspective and opinion. When Naughty Dog, a majority of the players who are involved with this discussion, and the FREAKING voice actress explain what was going on it's not something you can flat out ignore or deny. The writer (not staff, this definitely seemed like just one writer) could have disagreed on the approach or the conveyance of that aspect of Ellie's character. The writer doesn't: It's like the intention AND the facts don't exist. I don't think it's willful ignorance either. I think the writer legitimately didn't pick up on it, didn't hear/read about it, and/or didn't even play the game and/or farther into the game. Multiple people on this thread have already stated what is wrong with that example. Basically Ellie does not lose self-reliance when the man shows up, especially since this man is the player character and is there for pretty much the whole story anyway. The writer just cherry-picked the example and subtracted understanding and context, most likely by accident/ignorance, possibly on purpose.

The only really decent game examples are Metroid: Other M, Zelda sort of (Zelda is complicated in this aspect), and real life. Some of the other reasons listed have merit, but only within that specific genre of game or from that developer. They'd have more merit if they were explained better and had a more inclusive environment. Hotline Miama is well Hotline Miami... The article is overly-simplistic, it lacks nuance and understanding of holistic complexities and completely misinterprets certain situations (mostly TLOU). It's a smorgasbord of fallacies. I support rational feminism, I support opportunity, I agree there is sexism in video games, and being a man has never stopped me from supporting any of that. It's articles like this though that just make it more confusing for people who are just getting in the conversation or who aren't in it, read about it, and take it at face value as a fair opinion. There are much better spokespeople out there. It won't affect anything at large, it's just annoying these sort of articles from bigger players (yes, even Cracked) keep popping out now and then instead of the more rationale ones.

 

[baconmaster]

The Last of Us is sexist... That stupid argument again. If you're going to claim such a thing, you either haven't played the game at all or you wanted Ellie to be a bland flawless character. She was very capable in most situations (she even saved Joel and escaped from captivity all by herself) and the game made it clear that Joel probably needed her more than she needed him.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

In order to start understand the sexism and misogyny, you need to understand the underlying reasons why gamers have this animosity toward the female gender and the need to lash out in the comments.

The main problem is women wont have sex with them, it drives them crazy and they use words like "politically correct" and the like. Eventually they'll find a woman to have sex with, and the hatred will subside.

Sure, but you only feel this way because you stubbed your toe this morning.

The Last of Us is sexist... That stupid argument again. If you're going to claim such a thing, you either haven't played the game at all or you wanted Ellie to be a bland flawless character. She was very capable in most situations (she even saved Joel and escaped from captivity all by herself) and the game made it clear that Joel probably needed her more than she needed him.

Personally, I felt that Joel's deep-seated daughter-issues negated any and all quality writing in the game.

 

[Denizen]

Probably one of the most worst articles I've seen by non-gaming publications dealing with supposed controversial topics in gaming. Lots of people outside the gaming industry - and even some working in it - seem to view the game industry as a person with a sign on their back that says, "Kick me!" It's like gaming is that new kid in school who was happy until people started to notice him. Then a few embarrassing but misunderstood things happened and now everyone sees Gaming as some silly and awkward kid who's become everyone's favorite person to pick on - even the people you thought wouldn't pick on Gaming would join the bullies to ridicule Gaming.

And no one wants to stand up for Gaming, not even Gaming itself. Gaming is too busy shifting blame, self-harming, and worst of all: Gaming becomes convinced that the bullies are justified in their bullying. From there, Gaming's identity will remain lost because some days Gaming is told to stop being so insensitive - despite never having that as an intention - and the next, Gaming is is told to stop being so offensive to people Gaming's never known and would never try to offend. And when they get after Gaming, they pretend they know who Gaming is. After so much abuse, Gaming is drained of so much time and energy; and accepts these accusations as true no matter what consequences follow.

I guess what I'm saying is that since the game industry has such poor advocacy, where most times commits shameless and immature reactions to criticism; controversial matters end up being so mishandled that people with so little understanding of today's games can be called an authority of this medium without any basis, strong arguments, and least of all; they fail to demonstrate a shred of respect and dignity to Gaming as medium. One might say, "Well, why would anyone take Gaming seriously if Gaming never acted serious to begin with?" For that I'd say, the chicken, or the egg. I believe, this is the result of the same effect for when you say something long enough that people will eventually believe it. As my above allegory illustrated, and without echoing it further, the bullying went on so long that Gaming now feels this treatment is deserved when nothing was done wrong.

These people who do this are outside of the medium, make claims of violations Gaming has committed, basing their claims on vague and general assumptions - which are technically lies - and demand rules be put in place that are ultimately detrimental to Gaming's future. This has reached a point where you can claim Gaming has done something wrong, put a general and absolute statement about what was done wrong, and then present proof without its true context. Congratulations! Now, all the people with good intentions, who would otherwise support noble cause, albeit blindly, are now your followers (we'll fix sensationalism later).

Cracked is simply the latest relatively well-known outlet to take advantage of this. Not to say that Cracked hasn't already shown their incompetence in approaching video game culture when one looks at their past articles, but there seems to be only one person who's made game related articles for that website who seems to know what they're saying - David Wong.

But, it seems like he's given up on gaming. I can't really blame him. Plenty of my friends have too. When you reach a point where you're tired of waiting for things to get better and are so frustrated while waiting, it takes a toll.

You know what they say, the things you care about most are the ones that make you the most upset. It's similar to the sentimentality of being a parent; and we actual gamers are the parents of Gaming. When we are going to step in and help this poor child that can't seem to catch a break, when all along we want to see Gaming have fun, or rather be fun. Remember when Gaming was all about having fun?

 

[TekMoney]

The one thing I can never understand about articles like this (and similar topics and arguments) is how people so often seem to hold up Duke Nukem as the poster child for everything that's wrong with the video game industry in terms of sexism, misogyny, etc.

Seriously, is there anyone out there who doesn't know that the whole point of Duke Nukem is that he's a parody of over-the-top, testosterone-fueled, super-macho action heroes, and you're not supposed to take him seriously? I mean, his name is Duke Nukem, he chugs beer and steroids to give himself extra power, carries a gold plated pistol, quotes movie lines from other cheesy over-the-top action heroes and movies, and kills one of the bosses by literally ripping off his head and shitting down his neck, how much more obvious can they make it?

Because anything awful you do is immediately excused if you say the word "parody" at the end. In Duke Nukem Forever, women are raped on screen, while Duke makes jokes and you are then encouraged to shoot them in the face.

 

[Darmani]

haven't played other M but heard enough complaints about it,

Neither have most who jump on the it is the platonic ideal of video game sexism. Which is why I hate it being badmouthed so. Questionable elements and mistakes even with gender, it has them. The utter sexist thing ever

puhleeze. People are pissed that Adam tells you what to do and you do it and its not what you would do anyway.

 

[SidheKnight]

I just came in to say that the treatment of Elizabeth in Bioshock Infinite is NOT sexist.

Of course she needs the help of Booker! She may be a walking McGuffin with reality bending powers, but she's still an underage teenager who has lived most of her life sheltered in a safe (though restrictive) environment. She's even horrified when she sees Booker killing hordes of racists with the ease and carelessness only a psychopath (or a videogame player) can muster.

She's portrayed realistically. She can fend for herself very well, as long as it doesn't involve taking a life.

 

[Suncatcher]

I agree with the central point, that a large part of the video game industry is sexist and terrible. I disagree with many if not most of their specific examples and arguments.

One that sticks out to me is calling the new Tomb Raider game sexist, because Laura cries a couple times. For reference purposes, this was immediately after she was stranded alone on an island full of psychopaths with no survival equipment while she was a teenager with no skills outside theoretical archeology. That doesn't make her some defenseless weepy damsel, it makes her a fucking human. And after she dries those tears is she saved by some ultramasculine stoic father/boyfriend figure? No. She takes her makeshift bow and her climbing axe and she starts systematically exterminating every threat to her and those she cares about. There is one time in the game when a man tries to protect her, impress her, and be a big tough hero-man; spoiler alert he gets himself caught and the teenage girl has to tear through hundreds of thugs to try to save him, then he even manages to fuck up his own rescue by being so bloody macho he gets himself killed. And then she cries a little (not because she's lost without her big strong man, because he used to be a friend and then he got himself killed for nothing by being a fucking idiot) and goes on to exterminate the people who did that to him so they can't hurt anybody else.

If managing to make the protagonist a badass without making them emotionless and inhuman is your definition of sexism, you're doing it wrong.

Yes, a lot of games are sexist. A lot of games are stupid. Basically 90% of everything, from video games to books to TV to humans, are shit. I would very much like games to be less sexist, and less stupid, but until that happens I'll keep playing the ones that aren't instead of calling the whole industry evil.

 

[Suncatcher]

I have played neither The Last of Us nor Other M. I have no intention of playing Other M (waiting for price to go down on TLoU). Tomb Raider I've covered.
Zelda? She's the hero in the majority of the games, basically all the ones where she isn't turned to stone in the first five minutes; she makes the plans, she sets up the pieces, she uses the Wisdom she's known for far and wide to maneuver Link like a rather versatile chess piece and take down the evil which invades HER nation. Just because she isn't the one out swinging a pointy stick around and losing pints of blood for the cause doesn't mean she's an object, especially since Link has been demonstrated to be useless without the guidance of his (mostly female) guides.
In KotOR and Mass Effect we have a protagonist of whatever gender you feel like, female party members being almost universally interesting and badass, and a large fraction of male npcs being whiny and useless.
In the Monkey Island games you play as what looks like a swashbuckling male hero, only to find out pretty much every time that Elaine has already solved the problem in a much more intelligent manner and you almost screwed it with your bumbling "heroics".
Fallout? Elder Scrolls? I don't see the sexism.
What else have I been playing... Fallen Enchantress? No sexism there.
Mount and Blade: Warband? Yeah, okay, the top female units outclass every male unit in the game but get paid a fraction of the amount, and if you play as a woman nobody will accept you as a general, so your only option is to take your band of sword sisters and conquer the fucking world until they take you seriously.
Portal? Nope.
XCOM? no.
Hate Plus? Okay, we're done here.

The industry isn't sexist. Several writers and devs are sexist, but you can usually solve that problem by not talking about their games and taking away all the free rage-publicity they sustain themselves on.