Critical Miss: Riotous Anger

[Amethyst Wind]

there is a way to protest and this is not it. My fellow brits i must ask you:
[HEADING=1]WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING!! HAVE YOU NO PRIDE OR HONOR FOR YOUR FELLOW COUNTRYMEN[/HEADING]
been gone for a year and you let the economy go to pot and act like bloody savages!

Honour. There's a U in there in your 'fellow' British English.

Hopefully implied geographical standpoint questioned, moving on. Can you rewrite your post with some content rather than simply spouting ridiculously outdated buzzwords and propaganda slogans?

I don't agree with what the rioters and looters are doing, simply because it brings to mind the unrest of the 80s, both in England with the miner's strikes/Maggie Thatcher (possible candidate for a truly evil person, if true evil exists) and in Northern Ireland. Both of these things had long reaching effects on the country, some of which are still being felt today.

I haven't yet made up my mind what I think about all this, as every time I do think about it I bring up more things to consider. Hopefully I'll have some form of opinion in about a decade or so.

Off-topic: I like the continuity in the comic of Erin's stammer, which has been present since the accident at the start of the last arc.

 

[twaddle]

snip

ok but the biggots are completely undermining what you have been protesting for. I probably would have protested to if i was there, but it's good to know you continued the good fight without me but the these twits that are looting and hurting others are obscuring the original meaning of the original protest. Though I get most of my news second hand and american news tends to push more toward the bad propaganda than across than back at home.

 

[twaddle]

there is a way to protest and this is not it. My fellow brits i must ask you:
[HEADING=1]WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING!! HAVE YOU NO PRIDE OR HONOR FOR YOUR FELLOW COUNTRYMEN[/HEADING]
been gone for a year and you let the economy go to pot and act like bloody savages!

Honour. There's a U in there in your 'fellow' British English.

Hopefully implied geographical standpoint questioned, moving on. Can you rewrite your post with some content rather than simply spouting ridiculously outdated buzzwords and propaganda slogans?

I don't agree with what the rioters and looters are doing, simply because it brings to mind the unrest of the 80s, both in England with the miner's strikes/Maggie Thatcher (possible candidate for a truly evil person, if true evil exists) and in Northern Ireland. Both of these things had long reaching effects on the country, some of which are still being felt today.

I haven't yet made up my mind what I think about all this, as every time I do think about it I bring up more things to consider. Hopefully I'll have some form of opinion in about a decade or so.

Off-topic: I like the continuity in the comic of Erin's stammer, which has been present since the accident at the start of the last arc.

Sorry about the typo. Basically aside from I'm speaking more towards the looters undermining the original meaning of the protest.

 

[Gigano]

I know right? "The arguments of both the left and the right are too over simplified, so I'm just gonna blame the rioters and nobody else."

It's like they took a half day or something. Or worse, just used the BBC as their sole source of news on this.

And yet saddeningly it seems to the general consensus of opinion, people seem incapable of being rational on the subject

...but he just needs a hug. And an intensive 5,000 £ a week pedagogic and psychological evaluation and encouragement program, to see whether it isn't some unresolved issues with his father that can utterly absolve him of personal responsibility, because it's all society's fault that it just didn't give the father enough hugs to pass onto his son.

Or you could throw the worthless criminal scum in jail.

Case in point- this reads like the bad copy of a right wing pundits rant.

Well, I'd think throwing looters in jail is a - sorry, the - rational response in regard to them looting. If you[footnote]i.e. "Adult of legal age and mental maturity".[/footnote] alone choose to commit a crime, then you alone are to blame for that crime; whatever the chain of causality that lead you to make that choice.

Not to say the social policies of Britain couldn't use adjustments in favour of increased redistribution (...maybe deal with that humongous deficit first though), but that has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that people are 100 % responsible for their own choices, and that no one else can be blamed merely because they inadvertedly caused the choice; do you blame the existence of his child for the crimes of a thief committed to provide for it? The child was a causal factor, wasn't it?

Thankfully, we generally make the distinction between causality and culpability. Their poor social situation might have provided one of the initial sparks, but that doesn't mean the social system is liable for blame over these crimes.

 

[Spygon]

I could not have put it better myself and fully agree.

 

[Therumancer]

To be entirely honest there are several ways to resolve this.

In general I do not think the situation comes down to any one cause, to be honest the shooting a lot of people think was a Catalyst apparently has very little to do with it, I've read more than a few things about it, and how that seems to have been used mostly by observers and claimed as a rallying point after the fact by people wanting to look to try and justify their actions. The fact that by most accounts it was a good shoot (and I say "most" because there are people claiming things like how he was on the ground in handcuffs, but that mostly seems to be anti-police rhetoric and wasn't tossed out until way after the innocents and even the original non-violent protest over it didn't seem to be claiming that).

In the end people need to be made to fear the repercussions of their actions, as I've said in many riots in the past, humane solutions to rioters just encourage people to riot because they figure it's all possible gains, and no real risk. A simple "looters and vandals will be shot in sight without warning" policy pretty much deals with the issue. Even if we saw a massive massacre of tens or hundreds of thousands of people at the hands of police and military MORE people in future generations would benefit from the fear and precedent set. In reality though I doubt any body count would go beyond more than a few dozen (given hoe spread out things are) once people get wind of the simple fact that guys are getting gunned down by the police they are going to go home and not want to risk being shot. Overall truncheons, hoses, and/or saying "stop, or I'll say stop again" doesn't work in cases like this.

The OTHER solution is of course for the goverment to consider the riots a revolution and effectively cede authority. This is difficult to do as there really isn't a movement or a leader. Still, given the social concerns which are fueling this even if they aren't the cause, surrender might be a valid option if it's believed this is going to go further and not end. Have all the politicians in elected positions simply step down en-masse and hold new elections, consider it a massive impeachment/lack of faith vote. Of course I don't see this happening because the guys in power want to remain in power, and probably figure they would rather see the country go down (and grab as much wealth as they can on their way to elsewhere) than face that.

Overall though I think the former solution is a bit more likely, because as I said there really isn't a unified purpose here. Bullets will probably work, but I don't see the makings og a new social order here. Besides it seems like the damage being done is mostly to the civil infrastructure, I've seen very little about attacks on goverment buildings. If we started seeing people driving industrial machinery through the civic infrastructure, or lynching judges and such there might be more grounds to say this is a socially motivated uprising.... but really, we're not seeing that kind of focus.

At the same time though I'll also say that after years of hearing how "Chavs" are the lowest form of life on the planet from people in the UK, it's always possible that this is them pushing back. I can only speak from what I've been hearing, I really don't know that much about that paticular subculture or how it relates to the rest of the UK. How good that information is, is debatable.

 

[cjbos81]

You know the dystopic, totalitarian, Britain of the future we see in all the movies, books, TV shows, and videogames?


This is how it happens.

 

[Nieroshai]

I'm kinda with you on the left side of things, as you put it. Government tripling uni prices while slashing benefits for poorer students (which, if you don't know, was £30 a week and was used by most people I knew who got it for food). People are understandably pissed off.

Good comic though, everyone is pointing blame at the wrong place. The people you need to blame is the absolute bastards rioting.

...despite this being an example of government ruining things, while the whole point of leftism is more reliance on government. And the rioters are destroying capitalist business owners to lash out at "the government" here. But this nitpick is neither here nor there since the entire issue comes down to:
No matter the stimuli here, what could posssibly justify harming innocents? Nothing. The rioters should take every ounce of blame. The government screwing you over? Go after the government, not your neighbor.

 

[Dutch 924]

Y'know. I think I will. It's especially their fault when they're the reason the morgues are slightly less empty.

 

[Togs]

Well, I'd think throwing looters in jail is a - sorry, the - rational response in regard to them looting. If you alone choose to commit a crime, then you alone are to blame for that crime; whatever the chain of causality that lead you to make that choice.

Not to say the social policies of Britain couldn't use adjustments in favour of increased redistribution (...maybe deal with that humongous deficit first though), but that has no bearing whatsoever on the fact that people are 100 % responsible for their own choices, and that no one else can be blamed merely because they caused the choice; do you blame the child of a thief if he stole to provide for it? The child was the cause, wasn't it?

Never said it wasnt, and your line of thinking is a rather black and white view of things, one with a point Id normally agree with but understanding what makes someone make a choice like that further arms in you in stopping people making that choice in the future- punishment only goes so far.

Again Im not condoning the actions of the rioters, but the blame cannot fall solely on their shoulders- they are reacting to dire circumstances in what is not the ideal way but is probably the only way they thought open to them.

And as far your last point Im borderline speechless that someone who obviously has some degree of intelligence can come out with something so asinine, go back over it and try and work out how the analogy is fitting as quite frankly I cant begin to fathom your logic there.

 

[The Philistine]

Does the drinking has anything to do with your argument? I'm just curious as to why you had your character drink beer through the comic.

Because the best way to wade into a sober discussion of real world events is over a pint.

Beyond the initial protests, when people started getting burglarized and vandalized, you just have a bunch of opportunistic #%&@wits jumping at an occasion for a quick smash and grab. The sad part is, any real political meaning has been drowned out by those #%&@wits.

 

[Gigano]

...
Never said it wasnt, and your line of thinking is a rather black and white view of things, one with a point Id normally agree with but understanding what makes someone make a choice like that further arms in you in stopping people making that choice in the future- punishment only goes so far.

Well, "understanding why they do it" and "others are (also) directly responsible for their actions" isn't really the same thing. You wished to assign "blame" for these crimes to others, not to simply point out a possible causality.

Again Im not condoning the actions of the rioters, but the blame cannot fall solely on their shoulders- they are reacting to dire circumstances in what is not the ideal way but is probably the only way they thought open to them.

Well, that doesn't make these "dire circumstances" any more relevant to discuss, since crime should never be acknowledged as a way of ; once you become a criminal, that's all you should ever be in the eyes of society.

I'm pretty surprised you'd bring up their social problems while there's a negative focus on them; wouldn't it be a better approach to bring it up in a situation where everyone didn't hate them? Putting focus on on whether/how people should be helped out while they're looting the city is pretty poor timing.

And as far your last point Im borderline speechless that someone who obviously has some degree of intelligence can come out with something so asinine, go back over it and try and work out how the analogy is fitting as quite frankly I cant begin to fathom your logic there.

Yeah, that one was a bit too hastily put together.

The point it was meant to illustrate - that causality doesn't equal culpability - stands though.

 

[Delsana]

Rant rant rant, rage rage rage, yell yell yell, flame flame flame.

I remember when everyone was upset about the Oil Spill and then the Japanese Reactor overflow, and then that other thing, oh and that thing before it... now it's this.

 

[hipster666]

Personally I think the whol thing sparked from an increasing unwillingness by the police to be upfront about their actions. Very few confirmed facts have come out about the initial shooting other than the fact that the guy was a known criminal, was carrying a gun and was shot in a taxi. Don't know where someone on this thread heard he was shot while IN HANDCUFFS, but that's literally the first time I've heard that conspiracy theory.

In the abscence of facts people make up their own horror stories and from what I've seen, with no new information being forthcoming, people have, and continue to, do just that. I saw a placard being held a member of his family saying he wasn't a gangster he was a family man. Yeah right, because a family man carries an illegal handgun...

The rest of it does seem to have stemmed from a deep-seated resentment towards society felt by the young which I wasn't even aware of until now. I'm of the generation that got initially screwed out of a Uni education by cuts and took part in all the protest, much good they did. However the situation has only gotten worse with education standards decreasing, job prospects getting worse and all after a couple of decades of unprecedented opulence. It's no wonder kids think they have it hard when they've gone from champagne to Tizer in their own lifetime, but there still needs to be a recognition that this is not all down to the government or the police. We need more acts like the clean up crews and neighbourhood patrols, people getting involved with their own boroughs and neighbourhoods as well as support from government and local council. There are no easy solutions but it involves EVERYONE, not just a small subset, making changes.

 

[Delsana]

Rant rant rant, rage rage rage, yell yell yell, flame flame flame.

I remember when everyone was upset about the Oil Spill and then the Japanese Reactor overflow, and then that other thing, oh and that thing before it... now it's this.

Huh, history is a string of events happening one after the other in chronological order.

How insightful.

Point is all the rage really matters... in no degree.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

Good call guys, good call.

 

[fieryshadowcard]

Im gonna do what I can to keep this post even tempered, but Im raging quite substantially at that comic.
I still cannot get my head around this notion that people have that riots start out of nowhere, the areas that riots started in are the poorest areas of the country, areas made poorer by the actions and policies of Mr David Cameron- these people where pushed and pushed ot the very edge where they snapped.
So yeah blame the rioters and looters for acting like animals, but dont for one fucking second make out that the blame lands solely with them.

I know right? "The arguments of both the left and the right are too over simplified, so I'm just gonna blame the rioters and nobody else."

It's like they took a half day or something. Or worse, just used the BBC as their sole source of news on this.

I think you guys are taking the comic and the post beneath it too literally. At no point was it said that there's no blame to be assigned elsewhere. The point is, "Yeah, while you guys are sitting there trying to assign blame to my aunt's overly gaming nephews or your strange compulsion to destroy beneficial laws and systems for the less fortunate, there's a guy outside my house who CHOSE to douse all the houses on my street with gasoline and is now preparing to light a match. Do something about him and the others, stop the riot quickly, take preventative measures for future cases, and THEN maybe if you have some time in retrospective, play your game of arbitrary finger-pointing."

Yes, the rioters have been driven to a point where their frustration has turned to anger and their anger to outward acts of aggression. That makes their actions understandable, NOT justifiable. The riot, with the casualties and the property damage and the paranoia, fear, anger and hostility from all sides certainly is not going to make things BETTER for anyone. The rioting is still ongoing, and there are people who a) are still enraged and expressing it in an unproductive way as well as b) people who are merely capitalizing on the chaos because it's convenient.

Desperation brings out the worst in all of us. But how it manifests is a CHOICE. And if it manifests in a detrimental way, there is accountability to be held there. It wouldn't fly if I went and brutally assaulted every last person who made my life miserable, and it certainly isn't going to fly when instead of assaulting those people I opt to destroy the homes of my neighbors and fellow community, a lot of whom are probably experiencing the same thing.

 

[Plucky]

In my opinion, i think the media is overhyping the Riots by showing certain things, like that exchange student who was learning in England who was practically mugged whilst others were distracting him by pretending to care about his jaw....i think theyre using specific examples to make the riot look more distressful, it does sort of make us look bad as a country, i just hope they don't make restrictive laws, or stretching the budget even thinner.

Chances are if the person they mugged was an English citizen, they would've latched onto something else, like a cat being stolen from a paraplegic person who's schizophrenic or something, to make the riot look more evil or something.

Erin's an adorable drunk (is she drunk?). nice dress and Mega Man choker too.

 

[Outright Villainy]

Im gonna do what I can to keep this post even tempered, but Im raging quite substantially at that comic.
I still cannot get my head around this notion that people have that riots start out of nowhere, the areas that riots started in are the poorest areas of the country, areas made poorer by the actions and policies of Mr David Cameron- these people where pushed and pushed ot the very edge where they snapped.
So yeah blame the rioters and looters for acting like animals, but dont for one fucking second make out that the blame lands solely with them.

I know right? "The arguments of both the left and the right are too over simplified, so I'm just gonna blame the rioters and nobody else."

It's like they took a half day or something. Or worse, just used the BBC as their sole source of news on this.

I think you guys are taking the comic and the post beneath it too literally. At no point was it said that there's no blame to be assigned elsewhere. The point is, "Yeah, while you guys are sitting there trying to assign blame to my aunt's overly gaming nephews or your strange compulsion to destroy beneficial laws and systems for the less fortunate, there's a guy outside my house who CHOSE to douse all the houses on my street with gasoline and is now preparing to light a match. Do something about him and the others, stop the riot quickly, take preventative measures for future cases, and THEN maybe if you have some time in retrospective, play your game of arbitrary finger-pointing."

Yes, the rioters have been driven to a point where their frustration has turned to anger and their anger to outward acts of aggression. That makes their actions understandable, NOT justifiable. The riot, with the casualties and the property damage and the paranoia, fear, anger and hostility from all sides certainly is not going to make things BETTER for anyone. The rioting is still ongoing, and there are people who a) are still enraged and expressing it in an unproductive way as well as b) people who are merely capitalizing on the chaos because it's convenient.

Desperation brings out the worst in all of us. But how it manifests is a CHOICE. And if it manifests in a detrimental way, there is accountability to be held there. It wouldn't fly if I went and brutally assaulted every last person who made my life miserable, and it certainly isn't going to fly when instead of assaulting those people I opt to destroy the homes of my neighbors and fellow community, a lot of whom are probably experiencing the same thing.

Well, you've saved me a lot of typing anyway.

That makes their actions understandable, NOT justifiable.

This in particular would be the main point here. The rioters have a right to be angry. But what they've done makes them fuckheads, pure and simple.

 

[Unesh52]

That Mega-man chocker is baller as shit.

...

Oh, and the riots are bad... n' stuff.