Critical Miss: Space Marine

[Aardvaarkman]

Well, Rose-tinted refers to how they look at the past, like it was some golden era of game design. I suppose it does kind of clash with the rest of the metaphor. Fuck it, they're rose-tinted bifocals.

Yeah, I kind of get that, but I still think it's a little off the mark. I don't think that type of character is feeling particularly warm and fuzzy about the past, more that they just hate anything new and different. I think it goes better with the "we had to walk to school in the snow both ways" attitude. They aren't fondly remembering the past, they'e upset that kids today don't have to suffer like they did.

 

[Mouse One]

Laughed hard. I'll say this-- the demo prepared me completely for this game. The combat is repetitive, and you have to play on hard to get anything remotely resembling a challenge. But dang, maybe I'm just a hopeless Warhammer fanboy, but it's a fun romp. Smash smash smash, FOR THE EMPEROR!!!!!!

Hey, afterwards I'll go play Retribution multiplayer, just to apologize to my underutilized brain cells.

 

[dickywebster]

I blame the die hard gws fans for that approach, plus the space marines came before the games industry became obssessed
Probably why i like the game myself actually :3

 

[Jachwe]

I normally like this strip but it failed this week.

Turning a turn based TABLETOP game (can you even HAVE real time tabletop games? ~.~) into a FPS, and turning a widely popular COMPUTER turn based game into an FPS are very, very different.

Well to answer your question... yes you can have a real time tabletop game. The only requirement for such a game is, that it is supposed to be played on the top of a table and has no turn based game mechanic but gameplay unfolds in real time.
To comment on your statement: No, turning a turn based (tabletop) game into a first person shooter does not differ from turning a turn based (computer) game into a first person shooter. How can it be? You just state that it is so but do not answer your own imlicit question why it should be so. If you did you would recognize that it is not obvious why it should be so and that it is not so.
The games being tabletop or computer games are just superficial facts that can be transcended by our concisnious. That is simply put they are just games. They have certain rules which determine the game's mechanic.
So from that viewpoint we recognize that a game cannot be turned into another game. We expect games of a franchise to bear game mechanics and rules similar or identical to the predecessor of said franchise. But we have to admit they are two different games in the narrow sense even if the are similar respecting their rules and mechanics. If the successor game's rules and mechanics are vastly different from its predecessor of one franchise they have not turned one game into another but created a new game of the same franchise.
It does not matter that one game is a tabletop and the other is a computer game when there is a new game that is created.

 

[duchaked]

I try not to get too worked up about things pertaining to this topic. Especially since I really love Gears of War and people always try to pin it on the series.
Okay so Gears of War 2 was more enjoyable than the first, which I've been trying to get into again before the third game comes out. It does drain me a bit to play through the first.

 

[Cropsy91]

Judging from the demo, Space Marine is rather fun and doesn't play much like GoW at all. It's more of a merger of hack-and-slash and third-person shooter. Nevertheless, it is rather funny how people will make exceptions when it caters to their interests.

Also, I got a kick out of the trenchcoat guy wearing a Panty and Stocking t-shirt.

 

[Booze Zombie]

I do believe Duke Nukem's "see, it's funny because I ruined the dramatic tension" line (I may have misremebered the exact quote) would work out pretty decently on a T-shirt.

As for hating on games or what have you... well, I find it's better to play each game yourself and give it as fair a look as you can. Of course, you get games where the tutorial level just sucks your soul out through your thumbs, but that can't be helped sometimes.

 

[acosn]

Space Marine is in every sense of the word, "average."

Unfortunately that's rather unbecoming of Relic, and the multiplayer is fairly embarrassing. Balance goes out the window when you can use a weapon like the Plasma cannon and one-shot people at long range without having to do the whole "aiming" thing.

And p2p servers.

As much as I'd like for Relic to just stick with RTSs the market just isn't that big, and they do kind of work for a corporation.

 

[rapidoud]

I normally like this strip but it failed this week.

Turning a turn based TABLETOP game (can you even HAVE real time tabletop games? ~.~) into a FPS, and turning a widely popular COMPUTER turn based game into an FPS are very, very different.

Well to answer your question... yes you can have a real time tabletop game. The only requirement for such a game is, that it is supposed to be played on the top of a table and has no turn based game mechanic but gameplay unfolds in real time.
To comment on your statement: No, turning a turn based (tabletop) game into a first person shooter does not differ from turning a turn based (computer) game into a first person shooter. How can it be? You just state that it is so but do not answer your own imlicit question why it should be so. If you did you would recognize that it is not obvious why it should be so and that it is not so.
The games being tabletop or computer games are just superficial facts that can be transcended by our concisnious. That is simply put they are just games. They have certain rules which determine the game's mechanic.
So from that viewpoint we recognize that a game cannot be turned into another game. We expect games of a franchise to bear game mechanics and rules similar or identical to the predecessor of said franchise. But we have to admit they are two different games in the narrow sense even if the are similar respecting their rules and mechanics. If the successor game's rules and mechanics are vastly different from its predecessor of one franchise they have not turned one game into another but created a new game of the same franchise.
It does not matter that one game is a tabletop and the other is a computer game when there is a new game that is created.

Because a turnbased tabletop game has simplistic rules that don't oversimulate in an attempt to make it (relatively) short whilst still being an enjoyable.

Whereas a computer turn based game throws that out the window in making it as simulated as possible without being too tedious (lest you get grand strategy which typically uses stop-start gameplay) which means that not much of the variables have to be extrapolated, whereas a tabletop game you have to guess a lot of things like gunshot sounds, how the gameplay would really be like, how fast everything moves to balance it (as everything is the same speed in W40k for infantry pretty much, whereas a computer turn based game could have them slightly differing).

 

[Smokej]

The big difference between this and the Xcom game, aside from the fact that Xcom kept literally nothing from the earlier entries, is the fact that Space Marine isn't being billed as an entry in the game series; it's a videogame based on the fluff attached to a table top game. Think about the Mechwarrior series. The Mechwarrior tabletop game was a pencil and paper RPG (the strategy game was actually called Battletech, for those who don't know.) The Mechwarrior PC games, rather than attempting to do a single player computer version of a multiplayer pencil and paper game, looked at the setting and fluff connected to the series, and made a game that fit into the universe, but did things you couldn't do with a pencil and paper. Space Marine is a spinoff in that vein, rather than a direct entry into some main series.

Yep i can agree to that. The Mechwarrior Series (especially 2 and Merc.) was one of the best examples of how to do a tabletop justice without the need of an one-to-one copy. But i have to add that with the Crescent Hawk games there already were some faithfull Battletech RPGs (for their time). Unfortunately Battletech (like SR and several other good systems) were going down the drain together with FASA. There is no real progress in MW5 unfortunately as well... Trailer look really promising...

BTW, the world still needs a Warhammer RPG videogame based on the Fantasy-Flight material and rules...

(can you even HAVE real time tabletop games? ~.~)

To give you a good example within the GW universe take a look at Warhammer Dark Omen and Shadow of the Horned Rat. Of course they used the Tabletop rules for a lot of the gameplay mechanics and calculations. They are far superior to the Mark of Chaos crap of recent times and there is still a small community supporting these games.

Nevertheless turn-based will always be the Champions League of strategy-gaming

 

[MorphingDragon]

I would like a sexism and/or racism shirt. Would be BOSS.

 

[ThunderCavalier]

Personally, I want this latest comic on a T-Shirt. Very funny. Made my Sunday.

 

[Smooth Operator]

It's funny cuz it's true, the only reason I like Space Marine over X random modern brown shooter is the theme.

But hey it's the little things that really matter

 

[Fatal-X]

No...Space Marine is NOT based on a strategy game. Fool. The game is based on Warhammer 40k universe.

The Gears of War comparison is stupid, there's no cover system in Space Marine and Gears are famous for their cover system. Plus SM has a lot of melee combat, Gears don't.
So stop making that damn comparison!

You may wonder why this game is so popular when it's nothing special...it's a first good game in Warhammer 40k universe that has a focus on slashing and shooting and not on the tactical aspect. That's why fans of the universe are happy with it.

 

[The_Emperor]

Combat could of done with more strategy, space marines aren't half as invincible as they are in this game either, a cover system would of been nice actually, marines get a 3+ armour save but cover save is needed against weapons like plasma cannons, which aren't half as fast as they are portrayed to be in the game either, they weren't even as fast in Dawn of War

I bring issue to this statement. You're hardly invincible, especially not on Hard, and you are a Captain. Last I checked in the rules, they have considerably more perks than your average marine (as, for example, your marine in MP will die to a single shot of a plasma cannon, and it takes all of five shots to kill someone with a plasma gun, considerably more with more with a Bolter unless every shot is to the head. In single player, Titus will die to two or three rocket direct hits on Hard, in the Lab. The plasma cannon will kill you if it hits dead on. The Heavy Bolter will rip you to shreds in a matter of seconds. You will die in one or two hits to the Chaos Champions depending on a Glancing Blow vs. Direct Hit (and this is with the Iron Halo upgrade). A Nob will kill you in two hits. 'Ard Guys can kill you in four hits.). And the game has a cover system, its just not "Press B to stick to wall!", the levels are all designed (aside from the fight atop the Invictus) with an abundance of cover for you to use... and you will use it on Hard.

The last fight, even if it is a QTE, was some what holed into being something like it. There is no way for Titus to win that fight, not if he had ten marines assist him, not if he had Terminator armor, if they fought on the ground in a fair fight. And, to be honest, after using up all of my ammunition on the crazy waves and two champions prior to the final boss, I sort of enjoyed the QTE.

Yes, Relic took liberties with some parts of the background, but was that necessarily for the worse? I doubt the things they put in weren't approved by GW, considering how tight they are with their Lore and what they allowed to be even remotely considered cannon. Not to mention that Titus as Captain of the Second is a contradiction on the real Second Unit of the Ultramarines.

not even a sticky wall system just being able to duck would of been nice. A plasma cannon would kill 3 marines if they were standing together, its 1 dice and AP2 in 40k, but that things all like pew pew, like a plasma rifle.

I've got it on hard and I find it a bit easy, not trying to sound good or anything that's just the truth. Captains are traditionally lesser characters, have 2/3 wounds and unless they are wearing terminator armour or artificer armour have a save of 3+. I think he dies quick enough but its him vs 320910928301 orks and he just wades through em, with the help of 2 other marines. To me it seems he should of felt more threat from ork boyz and stuff, or even just had more marines from the onset, not hot dropping in groups of 3 :/


I understand it has to be a fun game but a little more attention to the source material and a bit less action movie rambo flavour cheese would of been nice, could of been a bit grittier.

IMO they should of dropped in a squad of 5 minimum, 2 could of died from the outset, they should of fought tooth and nail through the horde rather than "hey this your ship? lol i kilt it, lol that an army of orcs? chainsaw sword lulz all dead" A group of 5 vs 1 captain in the tabletop game is like if he wins its heroic cos thats 10 dice or 15 if they charge and he has like 2 or 3 attacks. In the videogame it just feels like the orks are no threat, theres no tension. It's as if titus is Marneus Calgar chapter master, or the Nightbringer or something.

I still like it though, it's still a decent laugh, I just think it's just a bit sloppy overall. I see what you're saying I think they missed the grit out though!

 

[The Diabolical Biz]

Combat could of done with more strategy, space marines aren't half as invincible as they are in this game either, a cover system would of been nice actually, marines get a 3+ armour save but cover save is needed against weapons like plasma cannons, which aren't half as fast as they are portrayed to be in the game either, they weren't even as fast in Dawn of War

I bring issue to this statement. You're hardly invincible, especially not on Hard, and you are a Captain. Last I checked in the rules, they have considerably more perks than your average marine (as, for example, your marine in MP will die to a single shot of a plasma cannon, and it takes all of five shots to kill someone with a plasma gun, considerably more with more with a Bolter unless every shot is to the head. In single player, Titus will die to two or three rocket direct hits on Hard, in the Lab. The plasma cannon will kill you if it hits dead on. The Heavy Bolter will rip you to shreds in a matter of seconds. You will die in one or two hits to the Chaos Champions depending on a Glancing Blow vs. Direct Hit (and this is with the Iron Halo upgrade). A Nob will kill you in two hits. 'Ard Guys can kill you in four hits.). And the game has a cover system, its just not "Press B to stick to wall!", the levels are all designed (aside from the fight atop the Invictus) with an abundance of cover for you to use... and you will use it on Hard.

The last fight, even if it is a QTE, was some what holed into being something like it. There is no way for Titus to win that fight, not if he had ten marines assist him, not if he had Terminator armor, if they fought on the ground in a fair fight. And, to be honest, after using up all of my ammunition on the crazy waves and two champions prior to the final boss, I sort of enjoyed the QTE.

Yes, Relic took liberties with some parts of the background, but was that necessarily for the worse? I doubt the things they put in weren't approved by GW, considering how tight they are with their Lore and what they allowed to be even remotely considered cannon. Not to mention that Titus as Captain of the Second is a contradiction on the real Second Unit of the Ultramarines.

not even a sticky wall system just being able to duck would of been nice. A plasma cannon would kill 3 marines if they were standing together, its 1 dice and AP2 in 40k, but that things all like pew pew, like a plasma rifle.

I've got it on hard and I find it a bit easy, not trying to sound good or anything that's just the truth. Captains are traditionally lesser characters, have 2/3 wounds and unless they are wearing terminator armour or artificer armour have a save of 3+. I think he dies quick enough but its him vs 320910928301 orks and he just wades through em, with the help of 2 other marines. To me it seems he should of felt more threat from ork boyz and stuff, or even just had more marines from the onset, not hot dropping in groups of 3 :/


I understand it has to be a fun game but a little more attention to the source material and a bit less action movie rambo flavour cheese would of been nice, could of been a bit grittier.

IMO they should of dropped in a squad of 5 minimum, 2 could of died from the outset, they should of fought tooth and nail through the horde rather than "hey this your ship? lol i kilt it, lol that an army of orcs? chainsaw sword lulz all dead" A group of 5 vs 1 captain in the tabletop game is like if he wins its heroic cos thats 10 dice or 15 if they charge and he has like 2 or 3 attacks. In the videogame it just feels like the orks are no threat, theres no tension. It's as if titus is Marneus Calgar chapter master, or the Nightbringer or something.

I still like it though, it's still a decent laugh, I just think it's just a bit sloppy overall. I see what you're saying I think they missed the grit out though!

I think part of the point is that it's not rule marines, it's fluff marines. In the fluff, god damn it they're ridiculous. There's a fluff marines list floating around somewhere on the web, and a squad of marines and a rhino is >1000 points!

Anyway, once you start looking at it like that it makes a lot more sense.

 

[Venats]

not even a sticky wall system just being able to duck would of been nice. A plasma cannon would kill 3 marines if they were standing together, its 1 dice and AP2 in 40k, but that things all like pew pew, like a plasma rifle.

You don't really need to duck when all the cover is built to cover you, standing or not. It would have just required different level design if you added ducking. As for the Plasma Cannon, and having been playing a lot of the MP recently (as I actually find it fun), the weapon is too powerful right now. It shoots too quickly for what can easily kill three marines with one hit, or knock them down to 1/8th of their health.

I've got it on hard and I find it a bit easy, not trying to sound good or anything that's just the truth. Captains are traditionally lesser characters, have 2/3 wounds and unless they are wearing terminator armour or artificer armour have a save of 3+. I think he dies quick enough but its him vs 320910928301 orks and he just wades through em, with the help of 2 other marines. To me it seems he should of felt more threat from ork boyz and stuff, or even just had more marines from the onset, not hot dropping in groups of 3 :/

The game is decently easy/straight forward on hard until the end, imo. I'd be hard pressed to hear that you found fighting the Chaos Champions (or the plasma spamming marines on earlier levels) on the last level easy. That or I played horribly in that moment because I was out of every drop of ammo save my pistol, and had to kill them with Fury. All that aside, yes they did make the Orcs (at least the normal boyz) a bit easy. They die in two-three hits from your melee, but to some degree I think that that was for the better. You can't really add all of the table top rules to the game because in real time, if Titus were real, he'd probably be carving the crap out of the normal boyz as he does in the game, or shooting them in the head pretty frequently. I think they did a good job in translating from table top to a more 'real time' environment. (I mean, how can a man of metal find a bunch of green men with axes all that threatening? Especially when he has exploding bullets and a power axe, when they have no armor at all?)

 

[The_Emperor]

snip

yeah I still think it missed out on the feel you get from the tabletop, against all odds, tooth and nail, clawing your way through the lines etc.

especially fighting the orks, there are just so many of them.

I think it would of been a little better if it were more dawn of war 2 style but hella close up, so the map was a little more open, more destructive enviroment, giving commands with D pad ala Star Wars Republic Commando, rather than Dynasty Warriors Space Marine.

I dunno I still think they could of done a lot better with out a considerable amount more effort.

They missed the essence of 40k world basically imo

I am looking forward to an Imperial Guard FPS lol.

 

[Artemis923]

I love 40k, and the ability to lay into hordes of Orks and Traitor Marines was nothing short of fucking awesome.

I hope Relic does well enough to make another game...there's so much untapped potential for bad ass in the 40k universe.

 

[PBMcNair]

I am looking forward to an Imperial Guard FPS lol.

I've always liked the idea, but the problem with doing anything with Guard is that they're pretty much one-shotted by every races signiture weaponry, especially in fluff.

The answer I came up with was to do a game about some thing like a vindicare assasin, an elite unit that has skills and tech that allow it to be far better than a standard human, without hitting the walking tank level of space marines.

Still I'm fairly certain its all moot, since I assume Fire Warrior killed the warhammer FPS for a while.