Wrong. The battle is unwinnable because enemies keep respawning.draythefingerless said:you can attack the base if you want. the game is just being real to the scene, because if you attack the base, your odds are near impossible. but you can try and attack it if you want. then you die, and its mission over. and if yo uwant, you can consider that end of the game.
Crossing Spec Ops: The Line
- Thread starter Yahtzee Croshaw
- Start date
so you wanted a winning option?Cosmitzian said:Wrong. The battle is unwinnable because enemies keep respawning.draythefingerless said:you can attack the base if you want. the game is just being real to the scene, because if you attack the base, your odds are near impossible. but you can try and attack it if you want. then you die, and its mission over. and if yo uwant, you can consider that end of the game.
3 guys vs entire base, complete with snipers, explosives, and armored vehicles. yeah no, youre not rambo.
furthermore, it would debunk the whole white phospherous thing, by giving it a polar opposite. basically you would only use the phospherous if youre an evil bastard, and youre a white knight if you attack the base. whats the fucking point then? it becomes a jedi vs sith situation.
Nope, i wanted actually be proven wrong and shown via gameplay that assaulting the base is insane and that there is no other option. I would have liked to get killed to have that point proven to me.draythefingerless said:
well you eventually die i guess. if i had a complaint on that whole part of the game, is they should have overwhelmed the player with massive force, instead of regular attack waves. like 30 enemies just tossing nades n shooting at you. impossible to get away from.Cosmitzian said:
then again this game was for consoles...so i dont know if the hardware would of sustain that level of events at the same time.Cosmitzian said:
once again, technology stalling us.
I honestly think you're right. Even though i enjoyed the scene, it was fairly easy to see it coming. Anyone who considers that moment anything but railroaded is terribly confused.
However, i don't find linear storytelling that bad of a thing. It worked for me because i single-mindedly fired at everything that moved, and by the time i realized there was no way those white dots were soldiers i had already let loose the round.
For me at least, it wasn't about a choice (besides dying there wasn't much of a choice) as it was about immediate regret.
Then again it worked because i hadn't reached my suspension of disbelief, so i guess that moment only if believe the game's tone until that moment.
That said, i completely agree it wasn't one's choice.
However, i don't find linear storytelling that bad of a thing. It worked for me because i single-mindedly fired at everything that moved, and by the time i realized there was no way those white dots were soldiers i had already let loose the round.
For me at least, it wasn't about a choice (besides dying there wasn't much of a choice) as it was about immediate regret.
Then again it worked because i hadn't reached my suspension of disbelief, so i guess that moment only if believe the game's tone until that moment.
That said, i completely agree it wasn't one's choice.
From an interview with the designers"
?During the ?White Phosphorus? scene, Walker buries his guilt and casts blame on Konrad and the 33rd, all in an attempt to keep going. Our hope was that the player would do the same?cast the blame on us, the designers?
Whelp, judging by this thread, slam dunk, fellas.
inb4 'it's just an excuse for bad design'
?During the ?White Phosphorus? scene, Walker buries his guilt and casts blame on Konrad and the 33rd, all in an attempt to keep going. Our hope was that the player would do the same?cast the blame on us, the designers?
Whelp, judging by this thread, slam dunk, fellas.
inb4 'it's just an excuse for bad design'
Getting people like you so butthurt that you post furiously about how other people should "Stop liking what I don't like!" while most others who've played the game got something out of it?SpiderJerusalem said:
I'd say that counts for excellent design.
Damn straight i wanted a winning option.draythefingerless said:
Because Walker *is* Rambo. You go through the game killing bases worth of troops before that scene, and bases worth of troops after that scene. What makes that particular base so special that it pulls the infinite respawn, you cant win trick? Even if it was hard as hell to win it conventionally I would still make it satisfying to do it.
I died 4 times that scene. Three from the infinite respawning snipers. Once from that last humvee because i realized there was that bunch of civilians nearby and wasted time trying to splash the humvee to death without hitting the civies. On the 5th time i sighed, and hit the humvee square in the center, watching the phosphorous round explode in a radius at least twice as large as all the ones before it.
There were too many changes of the rules for that scene to have the effect of making me feel guilty.
The one decision i made i somewhat regretted later was playing along with "Konrad" and shooting one of the prisoners(I chose the murderous soldier). I thought refusing would lead to another unwinnable situation like the phosphorous scene.
Why is everyone so fixated on the white phosphorus scene? Pretty much the entire game consists of nothing but Walker doing the opposite of what I would do in any given situation. Why is it so terrible that he does it there?SpiderJerusalem said:
I felt no personal guilt for what happened, but that doesn't mean I can't understand and identify with Walker's guilt, and I think that scene and really the entire game work quite well that way. Maybe it helps that this is the first modern-day shooter I've ever played, since I find the general concept quite distasteful, but yeah, this game really, really got to me.
I think it is important to make the distinction between player and protagonist agency, especially in games like Spec Ops. I never felt as if I was making the choice to fire the white phosphorous, but I rather considered it a decision on the part of the protagonist. Then I fired away with it gleefully (even though I did catch on once I saw the huge blob unarmed, unmoving people by the end of the bombing run) and accepted the resulting slow walk of guilt scene as something that was affecting the protagonist, not me as the player. Meanwhile, I also thought it had a second layer of "meaning" as a deconstruction of similar scenes in other military FPS-games where the resulting horror is rarely, if ever, shown and the whole use of WP/AC-130/Artillery/Whatever is meant to make the player go "wow, this is awesome".
To me it would seem as if most of the critique against Spec Ops in this thread stems from a confusion of player and protagonist agency. For this sort of game to work, one need to keep them very distinct and I honestly think that Spec Ops did make it clear that it was Walker's fault that the civilians got slaughtered, not the players. After all the main plot of the game is about Walker's descent into madness due to his own guilt, while the subtext is a deconstruction of modern FPS-games and their gung-ho approach to war. I think the game handles both quite well.
To me it would seem as if most of the critique against Spec Ops in this thread stems from a confusion of player and protagonist agency. For this sort of game to work, one need to keep them very distinct and I honestly think that Spec Ops did make it clear that it was Walker's fault that the civilians got slaughtered, not the players. After all the main plot of the game is about Walker's descent into madness due to his own guilt, while the subtext is a deconstruction of modern FPS-games and their gung-ho approach to war. I think the game handles both quite well.
You are wrong.RapeisGenocide said:
If you take your hands off the trigger finger for a second you realize that large group of people, which are the civilians, are just wandering aimlessly about and NOT moving in anywhere near the same frantic, aggressive fashion that the troops you are attacking are. Their movement(or lack of) gave them away as non-combatants.