Crossing Spec Ops: The Line

[matrix3509]

But in a game, attempting to try and pull the "war makes villains of us all" angle and then try and spin that with the whole "you, the player, are responsible" when no choice is ever given - even if there's a clear distinct possibility for it - is disingenuous.

I am about to get a concussion from head-desking on account of how hard you are missing the point. Do you know what a videogame is?

I thought game designers made this point clear decades ago: You as a player, by the mere fact that you are playing the game, are, on account of the nature of videogames being interactive, complicit in any activities taking place in said game.

To then ***** about how the game didn't give you a choice, when indeed, that is the ENTIRE DRIVING FORCE behide the protagonist's decisions, is just ludicrous.

 

[zumbledum]

btw in the WP scene you can attack the gate normally without using it just go to the far left area. not sure the fights winnable but its good fun.

good game nice story glad it was made and i played it, but it lost any emotional power for me to , its the whole immersion breaking problem of you cant be sat there dumbfounded asking your own character WTF are you doing? are you just being full retard for giggles? and then feel any guilt or even culpability for his actions.

i do feel a little sorry for the devs/writers. i mean they were so caerful to make it a humanitarian mission into a natural disaster NOT a war, and everyone missed it.

 

[Blackout62]

So possibly useless tidbit in the grander scheme of things: There is a Humvee, in the white phosphorous scene, while you're bombarding the zone it is driving back towards the largest mass of white blobs. Sure when you're bombarding you think its part of a mounting defensive line, then you realize later that it had positioned itself next to the civilians, while everyone else was panicking those soldiers made a conscious effort to take their big gun and armored vehicle to go defend the civilians. It's a nice touch.

 

[Cosmitzian]

One thing i don't see mentioned about the game, but felt was lacking, is the fact that the spiral of delusion didn't exactly 'hit' the conclusion needed to give the player real reason to doubt Walker's perception.

Everything, including the last final battle, was still grounded very much in reality. This didn't set up the delusional ending as good as it could because the switch from 'real' to 'delusion' was too fast. All that separated the 'reality' was that little cutscene of us going up the road and greeting, the what i then thought to be real, remnants of the battalion. Given the last 5 minutes of the game, we had no reason, prior to the ending 'cutscene' to doubt Walker's perception of reality.

If after the final battle/bunker explosion, we would have had a short gameplay moment, with Walker reaching the tip of his madness, i think that would have settled in the feeling a lot better. Let me walk you through it.

Imagine just watching the sequence after the bunker, you reach that bridge and realise that there's a final wave of enemies which you have to go through. The character then picks up two LMG's or one of the stationary Gatling sentries in the game, something ridiculous, and then advances on the enemies. The player can only reasonably go forward, the screen gets red as it usually does when you are near death, but you don't die.. hundreds of soldiers falling to your left and to your right as you wade through them effortlessly, trucks exploding for the pure visceral pleasure of carnage. You are a god amongst men, a god of war.

What would that sequence achieve? Make you question what you're seeing, set up the realisation that Walker really fell down the deep end.

 

[bells]

So possibly useless tidbit in the grander scheme of things: There is a Humvee, in the white phosphorous scene, while you're bombarding the zone it is driving back towards the largest mass of white blobs. Sure when you're bombarding you think its part of a mounting defensive line, then you realize later that it had positioned itself next to the civilians, while everyone else was panicking those soldiers made a conscious effort to take their big gun and armored vehicle to go defend the civilians. It's a nice touch.

Also, every time an explosion goes off Walkers face gets reflected in the laptop scree for a second... another very nice touch that mirrors exactly what yahtzee said about how these sections turn the player and the targets into senseless tiny little blobs.

 

[Thorenus]

(deleted)

 

[Guy from the 80's]

I saw a friend post a picture from the game on facebook and thought the artwork looked really nice. And the setting, ghosttown Dubai? Too good to be true. My friend also recomended it. So I had a few beers and thought this is going to be good!

I've only played it for maybe 20 minutes. I wasnt charmed by it at all. My first impression of the game was poor. A pointless helicopter/minigun unlimited ammo scence that was incredible boring. Walked around in the desert for a while and then quit in order to go back to Crusader Kings 2. Havent played it since (more than a month ago)

 

[Thorenus]

(deleted)

 

[In Search of Username]

Completely agree. That scene with the phosphorus was just so good. And the part where you replay that helicopter scene and begin to get deja vu - such a great way of revealing just how far from reality Walker has got to be. I love this game. And I love how from the title, trailers, hell, even from playing through all of the demo, you'd think it was the most generic thing in the world. Means the target audience for CoD and Battlefield might get something to actually make them think for once.

Oh, and those loading screens. Gradually changing from just giving you tutorials and backstory, to giving you philosophical quotes like 'Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you.' and then going on to simply openly ask what the hell you're doing. Such a brilliant touch.

 

[Angry_squirrel]

Wank wank wank wank wank.

That's all I'm hearing. "Oh, you don't like these choices? Stop playing the game you bought. Yeah, we totally made a product that costs 60 euros so we could tell you to stop playing it."

Bullshit.

Do you read a book, or watch a film, and complain that you're not being given a choice as to the protagonist's actions?

It's a linear game that is telling a story.

Don't complain because you're not given the choice to avoid something fundamental to the whole story of the game.

OT: I thought the story was brilliant, but the gameplay was about as bog standard as you could get. I've completed it once, and I don't expect to do so again.
The environments were great too

 

[draythefingerless]

But in a game, attempting to try and pull the "war makes villains of us all" angle and then try and spin that with the whole "you, the player, are responsible" when no choice is ever given - even if there's a clear distinct possibility for it - is disingenuous.

I am about to get a concussion from head-desking on account of how hard you are missing the point. Do you know what a videogame is?

I thought game designers made this point clear decades ago: You as a player, by the mere fact that you are playing the game, are, on account of the nature of videogames being interactive, complicit in any activities taking place in said game.

To then ***** about how the game didn't give you a choice, when indeed, that is the ENTIRE DRIVING FORCE behide the protagonist's decisions, is just ludicrous.

I think all the head banging is making you spectacularly miss the point.

Just because you are pressing forward on the controller doesn't make it you who is making the choices. Especially if there are none. You might as well claim that film is an interactive medium then, because you as a viewer decided to sit down and watch it.

But when the game forces your hand at doing something, and then pretends to be able to turn it around and say "AHA! This was your choice!" it is nothing but a poor manipulation and lousy game design.

I posted earlier that had the developers truly wanted to take this path and keep the message intact, they would have allowed the player options to play as they saw fit and calculated that towards the ending. But no, instead you are forced to take the cheapest, most obvious possible choice and then sit through meandering and poorly handled melodrama when the game tries to rub it in your face that you - well, did what it forced you to do.

That's not interactivity.

you can attack the base if you want. the game is just being real to the scene, because if you attack the base, your odds are near impossible. but you can try and attack it if you want. then you die, and its mission over. and if yo uwant, you can consider that end of the game.

 

[Cosmitzian]

you can attack the base if you want. the game is just being real to the scene, because if you attack the base, your odds are near impossible. but you can try and attack it if you want. then you die, and its mission over. and if yo uwant, you can consider that end of the game.

Wrong. The battle is unwinnable because enemies keep respawning.

 

[draythefingerless]

you can attack the base if you want. the game is just being real to the scene, because if you attack the base, your odds are near impossible. but you can try and attack it if you want. then you die, and its mission over. and if yo uwant, you can consider that end of the game.

Wrong. The battle is unwinnable because enemies keep respawning.

so you wanted a winning option?

3 guys vs entire base, complete with snipers, explosives, and armored vehicles. yeah no, youre not rambo.

furthermore, it would debunk the whole white phospherous thing, by giving it a polar opposite. basically you would only use the phospherous if youre an evil bastard, and youre a white knight if you attack the base. whats the fucking point then? it becomes a jedi vs sith situation.

 

[Cosmitzian]

3 guys vs entire base, complete with snipers, explosives, and armored vehicles. yeah no, youre not rambo.

furthermore, it would debunk the whole white phospherous thing, by giving it a polar opposite. basically you would only use the phospherous if youre an evil bastard, and youre a white knight if you attack the base. whats the fucking point then? it becomes a jedi vs sith situation.

Nope, i wanted actually be proven wrong and shown via gameplay that assaulting the base is insane and that there is no other option. I would have liked to get killed to have that point proven to me.

 

[draythefingerless]

3 guys vs entire base, complete with snipers, explosives, and armored vehicles. yeah no, youre not rambo.

furthermore, it would debunk the whole white phospherous thing, by giving it a polar opposite. basically you would only use the phospherous if youre an evil bastard, and youre a white knight if you attack the base. whats the fucking point then? it becomes a jedi vs sith situation.

Nope, i wanted actually be proven wrong and shown via gameplay that assaulting the base is insane and that there is no other option. I would have liked to get killed to have that point proven to me.

well you eventually die i guess. if i had a complaint on that whole part of the game, is they should have overwhelmed the player with massive force, instead of regular attack waves. like 30 enemies just tossing nades n shooting at you. impossible to get away from.

 

[Cosmitzian]

well you eventually die i guess. if i had a complaint on that whole part of the game, is they should have overwhelmed the player with massive force, instead of regular attack waves. like 30 enemies just tossing nades n shooting at you. impossible to get away from.

Agreed.

 

[draythefingerless]

well you eventually die i guess. if i had a complaint on that whole part of the game, is they should have overwhelmed the player with massive force, instead of regular attack waves. like 30 enemies just tossing nades n shooting at you. impossible to get away from.

Agreed.

then again this game was for consoles...so i dont know if the hardware would of sustain that level of events at the same time.

once again, technology stalling us.

 

[kasperbbs]

I saw a friend post a picture from the game on facebook and thought the artwork looked really nice. And the setting, ghosttown Dubai? Too good to be true. My friend also recomended it. So I had a few beers and thought this is going to be good!

I've only played it for maybe 20 minutes. I wasnt charmed by it at all. My first impression of the game was poor. A pointless helicopter/minigun unlimited ammo scence that was incredible boring. Walked around in the desert for a while and then quit in order to go back to Crusader Kings 2. Havent played it since (more than a month ago)

It gets a lot better after that, but whatever, no point in trying to convince someone who quits after 20 minutes.

 

[sebashepin]

I honestly think you're right. Even though i enjoyed the scene, it was fairly easy to see it coming. Anyone who considers that moment anything but railroaded is terribly confused.

However, i don't find linear storytelling that bad of a thing. It worked for me because i single-mindedly fired at everything that moved, and by the time i realized there was no way those white dots were soldiers i had already let loose the round.

For me at least, it wasn't about a choice (besides dying there wasn't much of a choice) as it was about immediate regret.

Then again it worked because i hadn't reached my suspension of disbelief, so i guess that moment only if believe the game's tone until that moment.

That said, i completely agree it wasn't one's choice.

 

[Dolfboy]

From an interview with the designers"
?During the ?White Phosphorus? scene, Walker buries his guilt and casts blame on Konrad and the 33rd, all in an attempt to keep going. Our hope was that the player would do the same?cast the blame on us, the designers?

Whelp, judging by this thread, slam dunk, fellas.

inb4 'it's just an excuse for bad design'