Current Developer Attitudes - Developers vs Gamers?

[InsanityRequiem]

Funny thing is, some people seem to act like this doesn't happen in any of the other mediums. Movie makers, book writers, tv show creators, etc. all act the same depending on who's who. The only problem is that gaming is one of the more expensive mediums, a game costing $60+, while a book costs roughly $10, movies ranging between $10-$30(depending on if you buy snacks), and all that.

So of course we have some small groups of gamers that feel harsh to the maker side, and then a small group of makers attack back at the gamers.

Sadly, it's the flow of money that makes all these bad attitudes.

 

[mjc0961]

People who aren't professional being selected as the face of their company for some unfathomable reason? See also: David Jaffe.

David Jaffe? He's one of the most professional game developers I've ever seen. How many other developers out there have the balls to stand up and say "We fucked up and you have every right to be mad and trade the game in" and give regular updates on the progress of the fixes? I don't have an exact number, but I know it's damn few. I'll much rather have developers be like David Jaffe than like useless shitheads such as Warren Spector [http://www.joystiq.com/2010/12/08/warren-spector-says-reviewers-misunderstood-epic-mickey-camera/] who write off all criticism as players not understanding their game (bullshit). It's the latter that's unprofessional; just man up and admit you made a shitty camera. Don't sit there and tell lies about how no other game has had a good camera and then be a pretentious asshole saying that nobody understands the game.

I don't really care if Warren Spector helped make Deus Ex all those years ago. Statements like that cause me to have more respect for the gum stuck to the bottom of my shoe than I do for him. And back to Jaffe, I again say that more developers should be like him. Admit you fucked up and keep us in the loop about the fixes. No "Oh, you just don't understand our game and nobody has made an online component with great connections" bullshit from Jaffe, because he's a professional.

 

[-Samurai-]

Contrary to popular belief, developers have never cared about what their customers want. Ever. Where people got that stupid idea, I don't know.

And the attitude of gamers comes from them being whiny little bitches that think that developers owe them for buying their product. You're not doing them a favor, and they didn't ask you to buy anything. You made the purchase on your own. They owe you nothing.

The companies haven't changed, but the mindset of the everyday consumer has, and not for the better.

And I swear to god the first person to quote me saying "so we should just take it in the ass from big developers/publishers?" is getting an ice pick to the throat.

 

[lord Claincy Ffnord]

For most of the actual developers who have been in the game industry for a while it really isn't that much about the money. There is a distinction here, for the company its a lot about the money but for the devs themselves, most of them just want enough to get by and the true reason they are in games development is because they want to make something for everyone to enjoy. And Nobody is happy if you tell them that what they just put the last couple of years of their life into is complete rubbish.

Tasteful criticism is helpful, thats not the problem, its the group of people (yes I'm not saying they're the majority in any way.) that are responsible for all the nerd rage, the only thing it does is raise tempers on both sides and when the devs start getting told that they are greedy assholes who don't give a shit about the gamer community (this being the people they were making the game for/why they were making games......anyway) they understandably get a bit riled up. As said earlier the devs, while their companies may be rivals (at least generally) don't hold hard feelings toward each-other and many know each-other and hearing friends get shit piled on them from the community is going to make them angry too.

When the devs do lash out verbally against the gaming community it just stirs up more hate from the community and makes things worse. The most important thing is that it is only a small group of gamers that are really doing this and very few of the devs that have responded badly like that.

 

[lord Claincy Ffnord]

Ok. The main reason many if not most devs are in games development is because they want to create something for everyone, something special something awesome, and if they weren't passionate about it they would probably have washed out of the industry already. Some devs may not care but I guarantee you that most devs, when the chips are down are there to create something for everyone.

And no of course this doesn't mean they are going to do what the customers want a lot of the time, a good lot of the time they have a good idea of what is better and/or more feasible than the often unreasonable demands that the customers make. If all the devs just listened to what the more vocal gamers said and acted following that then innovation would practically dissapear from the industry.

Finally yes, they do want to make THEIR game, not your game, their game. But they want to make it for you.

 

[Slayer_2]

within the last few months in the gaming world Ive noticed a current trend among some developers that have reacted to criticism by (as I see it) attacking the general market, usually with insults, belittlement and just telling them that really their opinion doesn't matter (we make it and if you don't like it, your the one with the problem).
I first noticed it with developer Vector Cell responding to criticism about their game AMY, then with EA/Biowere/ME3 debacle and finally with Phil Fish, maker of FEZ (although that was more of a tantrum I think but I think it relates)

what I'm wondering is where did this whole attitude of what I see as Developers vs Gamers stem from? did it happen just suddenly and if so where? or was it gradual with changing upper management culture or whatever

also those are some examples that Ive noticed, if there are more examples that prove or disprove my statements let me know

Question, have you ever made a game or mod and released it to the general public?

 

[Thoric485]

It's not pleasant, but I much prefer it to putting up a PR wall and communicating through press releases or some snappy marketing guy who hasn't seen the inside of a dev studio.

 

[TehCookie]

I think part of it is that developing games takes a lot more time, money and effort than older games and the consumers don't want to pay more. The publishers/developers need that money if they want to continue making games so they pry it out of consumer hands by ways we hate (DRM, DLC etc).

Not to mention gamers today are a lot more picky and will yell and scream if they aren't satisfied. Compare Pokemon to L4D, different place, different people, different weapons/pokemon, same core mechanics. One is perfectly fine rehashing the same thing while the other was hated before it was even released. Not to mention that devs/pubs know that gamers will buy it like a crack addict, but I think they would be more worried that the addicts complaining will affect the casual browser so they want to shut them up. With more expensive games they need more sales, and even if they have the gamer sales they still need the extras from casuals. Things like paid reviews won't fool anyone in the gaming culture, but it will fool people who aren't and they depend on those undecided consumers.

 

[Phlakes]

Are you serious? Look at all the shit gamers put devs through, you can't for a second make them out to be victims here. Developers create and try to protect content and gamers pirate it, zero-bomb it, threaten to boycott the developer for whatever reason, send hate mail, etc.

If they're getting defensive, they have every right to.

 

[Antari]

within the last few months in the gaming world Ive noticed a current trend among some developers that have reacted to criticism by (as I see it) attacking the general market, usually with insults, belittlement and just telling them that really their opinion doesn't matter (we make it and if you don't like it, your the one with the problem).
I first noticed it with developer Vector Cell responding to criticism about their game AMY, then with EA/Biowere/ME3 debacle and finally with Phil Fish, maker of FEZ (although that was more of a tantrum I think but I think it relates)

what I'm wondering is where did this whole attitude of what I see as Developers vs Gamers stem from? did it happen just suddenly and if so where? or was it gradual with changing upper management culture or whatever

also those are some examples that Ive noticed, if there are more examples that prove or disprove my statements let me know

Mostly the backlash stems from the fact that technically the person you are reaching isn't the person who was calling the shots on the deadline. Most games don't get finished or polished to anything approaching a finished product because of accountants. If you draw a line all the way back to the primary cause of nearly all the problems in the industry. The accountants hold the most blame. They have been given WAY too much power over the creative process.

They destroy a game by forcing it to be released too soon, with too many money grabs. The consumers backlash, usually at the programmers. And the programmers freak because they didn't have much of any control over things in that department. It was just an accountant. Saying, "We need our money by this day. To hell if the game is finished or not."

 

[Epona]

Are you serious? Look at all the shit gamers put devs through, you can't for a second make them out to be victims here. Developers create and try to protect content and gamers pirate it, zero-bomb it, threaten to boycott the developer for whatever reason, send hate mail, etc.

If they're getting defensive, they have every right to.

Funny how you don't mention that gamers BUY it. If gamers weren't buying the games and were instead pirating them, it wouldn't long take before that developer couldn't afford to make more games for people to ***** about. Honestly, do you really believe that most of the people bitching about ME3 or the PS3 version of Skyrim, pirated those games?

Moral is: If people are bitching about your game, the earned that right when they bought it.

 

[Heinrich843]

I dunno, I think it's because people keep buying recycled games at full price, and then paying for the day one DLC, and all sorts of other fun things.

Not all devs/publishers make statements that anger fans and cause a "US vs THEM" atmosphere, but it's not hard to see why this occurs.

Say a dev or a publisher makes a really outlandish statement that angers the fans. All I can think is, "Well, I guess they can really say anything, people will still buy hundreds of thousands of copies- if not millions".

Would you respect people that behaved as the consumers of video games do? Those who would pay for a product, complain heavily about it (perhaps justifiably)- but then go back and buy another product from that same person.

(Yes, a corporate entity is a natural entity. NOOO, SUBWAYYYYY)

They don't have to respect gamers, because gamers seem to forget about their bad experiences upon sight of a new shiny toy.

Of course, not everyone behaves as such- but enough do.

 

[ThriKreen]

It's also a case of "Squeaky Wheel Getting the Oil/Grease" (or whatever the proverb is).

I was reading a snippet about forum communities and a lot boils down to the 90-10-1 % division (although it should really be 89-10-1 but anyway). The breakdown is that for a given community, forums, games, what have you, an average split is 90% would be passive (just reads posts, plays games), 10% would be active in posting a couple a day, and 1% would be posting more than 5-20 times the previous group's.

Same thing for complaining, people who have a bone to pick with a given feature would be complaining, yet chances are, the vast majority would be OK with it, or they aren't aware of it, since it doesn't impact their game. Or they like it and are too busy having fun with said feature to post about it. So you end up with a game's forum community where 90% are complaining, but they comprise less than 10% of your actual gamer population.

Who should the devs listen to? If you say "We hear you, complainers, but the larger player group says they're ok/not ok with the feature, opposite what you want", the complainers would just, well, complain more. If you cater to the complainers, you potentially ruin the game for everyone else.

And of course, someone earlier mentioned, there's a ton of decisions that gets made behind the curtains, that, if you were aware of them, would make you realize why some features are the way they are. But a lot of players just don't care, and behave as if the developers are out to kill the gamer's first-born. Or worse yet, and this occurs far too often, they misinterpret the decision and end up shooting from the hip on their complaining.

A common occurrence is the "This game is not what I think it should be, therefore it sucks, 1/10!" behaviour that has been going around. A good rule of thumb is when reading about a game, TEMPER YOUR EXPECTATIONS. Remember, you are often reading what the PR/Marketing department is giving out, of course they want the game to SOUND good! And when the game is released, rate it for what it is, not what you think it should be!

 

[xDarc]

Developers have no obligation to consumers? Developers do not like being told their efforts are shit? Developers have a right to defend themselves?

Well la dee fucking da- what makes developers so god damn special?

In the real world, I work for a bank- I won't say which bank- but suffice to say that people do NOTHING but ***** and moan about the service all day long, the product, threaten to boycott, write complaints in which they completely make things up on the spot, etc.

Could you IMAGINE if Bank of America told all those people they foreclosed on to go fuck themselves? They'd say, we didn't force you to buy a home.

Rivers of blood would flow through the streets.

The attitude that developers owe consumers nothing is juvenile and bad for business. Developers need to get over themselves and understand that their job does not put them above the bullshit that rest of the working world has to deal with.

 

[Krantos]

When a bunch of gamers start complaining about stuff they don't have the full story or grasp of, then of course we're going to bump heads.

The problem is, developers don't have that luxury.

At the end of the day, gamers are still your customers. It doesn't matter how wrong they are. It doesn't matter how obnoxious they get. It doesn't matter how much crap they send your way.

You. Do. Not. Get. To. Argue. With. Your. Customers.

You don't have to agree with them, and you don't need to take their suggestions/preferences to heart. You do not get to talk back, though.

This is true in ANY industry. If you're working at a restaurant and a customer demands a free desert because his water wasn't cold enough. You give him a free dessert. You don't sit there and argue with him about it. And you certainly don't insult him or demean him. It doesn't matter that it was a stupid complaint. You don't do it.

Spitting matches with customers will NEVER end well for you. EVER. Even if you manage to shout them down (extremely unlikely), you will lose them as a customer. AND you'll lose about half the people they tell the story to. That's a lot of revenue lost just so you can vent your spleen.

The worst part is, dealing with upset gamers should be easy. Just ignore them! You never see them face to face. You never have them complaining to you directly. You just see them on forums. Just ignore it!

I worked for 6 years as a McDonald's Manager in high school and undergrad. I dealt with the absolute worst customers you can imagine. And these weren't distant anonymous avatars, these were red-faced, shouting, angry, in-my-face people. And for six years, I never lost my composure. I never once raised my voice, or argued with a single customer. The result was a 96% customer recovery rate, significantly higher than any other manager in the store. I may not know game development, but I know customer service.

If I can do that in what is one of the worst jobs in the country, game developers should at least be able to ignore complaints.

You will never gain anything by arguing with customers. So don't do it. It's not fair. But it's the truth.

 

[zellosoli]

Funny thing is, some people seem to act like this doesn't happen in any of the other mediums. Movie makers, book writers, tv show creators, etc. all act the same depending on who's who. The only problem is that gaming is one of the more expensive mediums, a game costing $60+, while a book costs roughly $10, movies ranging between $10-$30(depending on if you buy snacks), and all that.

So of course we have some small groups of gamers that feel harsh to the maker side, and then a small group of makers attack back at the gamers.

Sadly, it's the flow of money that makes all these bad attitudes.

the cost would be a very strong factor to be sure,but for things like comic books and movies which don't cost that much, there seems to be almost a never ending supply of vocal friction between viewer and creator, and so far it seems to be seen as "part of the territory" associated with the fandom. so wouldn't the cost of participation be just part of the attitudes we see now?

within the last few months in the gaming world Ive noticed a current trend among some developers that have reacted to criticism by (as I see it) attacking the general market, usually with insults, belittlement and just telling them that really their opinion doesn't matter (we make it and if you don't like it, your the one with the problem).
I first noticed it with developer Vector Cell responding to criticism about their game AMY, then with EA/Biowere/ME3 debacle and finally with Phil Fish, maker of FEZ (although that was more of a tantrum I think but I think it relates)

what I'm wondering is where did this whole attitude of what I see as Developers vs Gamers stem from? did it happen just suddenly and if so where? or was it gradual with changing upper management culture or whatever

also those are some examples that Ive noticed, if there are more examples that prove or disprove my statements let me know

Question, have you ever made a game or mod and released it to the general public?

Personally, no. I am an acquaintance with a few people who want to get into the industry but myself, I have not, I'm actually trying to get into the Illustration biz

 

[Slayer_2]

Personally, no. I am an acquaintance with a few people who want to get into the industry but myself, I have not, I'm actually trying to get into the Illustration biz

Ahhh, well, it's like arguing with a woman, you can't win either way. Seriously, though, there is ALWAYS some crowd unhappy. Make it more realistic? The hardcore fans might like it, but noobs will complain. Balance an overpowered item? Users of said item complain, others are happy. It's really lose/lose for the developers most of the time, which is why it's good for them to take fan "criticism" with a few kilos of salt.

 

[Kingjackl]

I get the feeling that the Us vs Them mentality regarding gamers and developers is rather one-sided. While it's easy to find evidence of gamers adopting this view (look no further than than the absolute paddling Bioware's recieved of late), I haven't seen much to suggest that devs have any kind of disrespect for their community.

Publishers yes, but that's more in a business-like way than anything else. To pretty much all game publishers, gamers are just a subset of consumers, and consumers are just their source of revenue. This is not un-ideal: EA/Activision/Ubisoft etc. don't hate gamers, they just see them as a market to provide a service to in exchange for money, no different from any other company or corporation.

It's slightly more ambiguous with developers, but I imagine most of them are good sports. It's safe to say even the most jaded developer is at least trying to create a quality product and does care about how it is percieved. Just don't be surprised if they come out in endorsement of their publishers ideals, since ultimately, their loyalty is to their pay-check.

 

[Awexsome]

Basically the gamer side has become quite the whiny

Are you serious? Look at all the shit gamers put devs through, you can't for a second make them out to be victims here. Developers create and try to protect content and gamers pirate it, zero-bomb it, threaten to boycott the developer for whatever reason, send hate mail, etc.

If they're getting defensive, they have every right to.

Funny how you don't mention that gamers BUY it. If gamers weren't buying the games and were instead pirating them, it wouldn't long take before that developer couldn't afford to make more games for people to ***** about. Honestly, do you really believe that most of the people bitching about ME3 or the PS3 version of Skyrim, pirated those games?

Moral is: If people are bitching about your game, the earned that right when they bought it.

"The customer is always right" is a lie. Sometimes the customer is a fucking idiot and should be told off since they deserve it.

And the gamers (customers) are not a very rational crowd to please. Piracy is one of the many factors put into it. The ME3 overreaction is one of the latest worst culprits. Bioware makes an objectively very good game, technically sound, years in the making, 10 minutes make it the worst thing off all time.

Death threats, hate mail, forum raging, metabombing away.

It's still a minority (although I'm not inclined to believe that the retake movement was just a minority of those types) that acts that way but it's still a large enough portion to have enough voice to be heard and forced to be acknowledged.

 

[zellosoli]

Personally, no. I am an acquaintance with a few people who want to get into the industry but myself, I have not, I'm actually trying to get into the Illustration biz

Ahhh, well, it's like arguing with a woman, you can't win either way. Seriously, though, there is ALWAYS some crowd unhappy. Make it more realistic? The hardcore fans might like it, but noobs will complain. Balance an overpowered item? Users of said item complain, others are happy. It's really lose/lose for the developers most of the time, which is why it's good for them to take fan "criticism" with a few kilos of salt.

oh that I understand, Its like that with any industry with customers. It just looks like some of the dev teams seem to be losing their cool in the face of criticism for their or other dev's games. whats stirred my curiosity is that it seems to have become a lot more outspoken in recently in a tide of news and what not, so what changed? what was the trigger if this was always a present notion?