Cyberpunk 2077 is delayed till November

Casual Shinji

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Yeah, when people start going on about how deep MGS is, I pull out the following example of how Kojima works.

Metal Gear Solid 2: Arguably a brilliant deconstruction of sequels and meta-narrative with some very pointed thoughts on how information shapes culture. Also has Raiden shimming through a stream of piss, running around naked with his hands over his junk and one of the bosses is a fat man on roller skates.
Is it briliant when it pretty much flat-out says 'this sequel is worse than the original'?

That's the problem with Kojima post-MGS1; he puts a ludicrous amount of effort into making statements that are superfluous. 'Look at me, I'm making a sequel to MGS1 that's all about commenting on how it's impossible to follow up on the succes and impact of that game. Pretty damn cool, right?' I mean, yeah sure, in theory, but it's still a game about being a deliberately not very good game, so... good for you Kojima?
 

Bob_McMillan

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Hummm I dunno. CDproject are ultimately a small company that suddenly see themselves with an opportunity to play in the same ring as Bethesda. I think what happened is that the hype they got for witcher 3 was far above what they expected so they're pushing for a more ambitious game that they original were expecting. If things go well, people will quickly forget the delay/crunch and it'll cement CDproject as a major gaming company which they can use to grow substantially. The future will say if it was worth it, but I wouldn't just assume they're screwing up. And I'm saying that as someone who doesn't really care for cynberpunk and though TW3 was average.
I think treating your employees like crap is enough for me to call the development as a screw up. Regardless of the quality or reception of the final project.

I mean, damn, the game went gold. And now their employees are working 100 hour work weeks for a supposedly finished game.
 
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Dalisclock

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Is it briliant when it pretty much flat-out says 'this sequel is worse than the original'?

That's the problem with Kojima post-MGS1; he puts a ludicrous amount of effort into making statements that are superfluous. 'Look at me, I'm making a sequel to MGS1 that's all about commenting on how it's impossible to follow up on the succes and impact of that game. Pretty damn cool, right?' I mean, yeah sure, in theory, but it's still a game about being a deliberately not very good game, so... good for you Kojima?
I was referring more that he essentially turned the "This is essentially the same setup as the last game" into part of the plot and ran with it. Which considering the man more or less keeps remaking the same game over and over again(with some rare exceptions) is probably the most interesting way he could have done it.

Don't me wrong here. I think MGS2 being a profound statement of metanarrative is overstated, but I'm gonna give the man credit of at least trying and making an intriguing game that is an improvement in many ways(mostly QoL and mechanically) over the previous one. I still think 3 and 1 are more satisfying to actually play through and I'm more than happy to criticize the series being one step forward and at least one step back in many cases.
 
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Gethsemani

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Hummm I dunno. CDproject are ultimately a small company that suddenly see themselves with an opportunity to play in the same ring as Bethesda. I think what happened is that the hype they got for witcher 3 was far above what they expected so they're pushing for a more ambitious game that they original were expecting. If things go well, people will quickly forget the delay/crunch and it'll cement CDproject as a major gaming company which they can use to grow substantially. The future will say if it was worth it, but I wouldn't just assume they're screwing up. And I'm saying that as someone who doesn't really care for cynberpunk and though TW3 was average.
CDPR is one of the biggest gaming companies in the world and the largest one in Europe as of six months ago when it surpassed Ubisoft. They've been a major European player the last half decade, since the run-up to release of the Witcher 3 and has been making a ton of money off of GOG. They like to make themselves out as the small underdog that has more passion then resources and is somehow contending with the major players, but the truth is that they are the major player and they've got a ton of money and a massive staff.

Their games are good and GOG has been a relatively fair game store, but people need to stop cutting CDPR some slack. They are valued at almost 9 billion USD and their track record of mistreating employees is really stacking up. They need to be held to the same standard we would any other game developer/publisher instead of gamers offering excuses for why the largest game company in Europe is somehow different.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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Yeah, when people start going on about how deep MGS is, I pull out the following example of how Kojima works.

Metal Gear Solid 2: Arguably a brilliant deconstruction of sequels and meta-narrative with some very pointed thoughts on how information shapes culture. Also has Raiden shimming through a stream of piss, running around naked with his hands over his junk and one of the bosses is a fat man on roller skates.
Making no distinction between high brow and low brow culture is one of the hallmarks of post-modernist fiction, which is definitely what most of Kojima's work can be considered. Take one of my favourite novels, for example. Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. It's a book about how the progress of technology and the increasing power of global industry inevitably not only lead to the industrialized genocide that was the Holocaust, but also the constant fear of total annihilation that came with the Cold War. It's also a book in which people have a pie fight between hot air balloons, a man dresses as a pig, and a paranormal government agencies chases a man around Europe because they believe his erections predict the impact of missiles. Actually, I'm pretty sure that novel was a pretty big influence on the Metal Gear series and its distinctive brand of what I've seen described as "Military Surrealism". I think the tonal dissonance in Kojima's games, between pertinent social commentary, in depth elaboration on various political and philosophical topics, witty meta commentary on video games, but also over the top action, storytelling that that one would expect from superhero comicbooks and what can sometimes be very juvenile comic relief is surely jarring, but it is also most definitely intentional and most definitely a defining part of his style as a director.

A friend of mine recently joked that Death Stranding "Feels like it's directed by Michael Bay, when it doesn't feel like it's directed by Stanley Kubrick." and I couldn't exactly disagree with him. It does. I just don't think it's a bad thing. It's a style of writing that's only really possible in video games. No movie studio would provide adequate funding for a movie with a story like that of Death Stranding. Because it's weird, tonally bipolar and yes, sometimes awkward. But we should consider ourselves lucky something like it exists. Late in the game you get to a bossfight that involves two immortal postmen having a fistfight over the continued survival of mankind on a metaphysical beach that connects life and afterlife with fighting game health bars hovering above them. And frankly, this is the kind of shit that I play video games for. Interestingly enough, Last of Us 2 has a final bossfight that plays out in a somewhat similar way. You have a beach, you have two characters who are kinda foils to each other and you have a fist fight, even though for vastly different reasons. Both of these scenes invoke the visual language of low brow 80s - 90s action movies. The kind Schwarzenegger and Stallone or, if it's one of the better ones, Willis might have starred in. The difference is, where Druckmann pays homage to movies like that in a very straightforward way, Kojima elevates their iconography through larger than life scales and cheeky postmodernist flourishes like the aforementioned fighting game health bars or the fact that, in an earlier phase of the fight, you can literally beat your opponent with suitcases constaining Playstation 4 consoles. I enjoyed recent games like Last of Us 2, Ghost of Tsushima or Red Dead Redemption a lot for what they are. But they are all built, almost entirely, from the tropes, if not to say clichés of their respective genres. Death Stranding isn't just another Post Apocalyptic Survivors Tale and the Metal Gear games aren't just random Spy Thrillers. They all expand upon these genres in ways that make them not only more compelling as stories, games, and in the end, works of audiovisual media


Is it briliant when it pretty much flat-out says 'this sequel is worse than the original'?

That's the problem with Kojima post-MGS1; he puts a ludicrous amount of effort into making statements that are superfluous. 'Look at me, I'm making a sequel to MGS1 that's all about commenting on how it's impossible to follow up on the succes and impact of that game. Pretty damn cool, right?' I mean, yeah sure, in theory, but it's still a game about being a deliberately not very good game, so... good for you Kojima?
No, I disagree. I think it terms of gameplay, MGS2 is an improvement on MGS1 in almost every way. It's not a bad game, neither intentionally or unintentionally.
 
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Casual Shinji

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No, I disagree. I think it terms of gameplay, MGS2 is an improvement on MGS1 in almost every way. It's not a bad game, neither intentionally or unintentionally.
I can immediately point to the stupid security nodes, which serve no purpose other than to point at Raiden and go 'hah ha, Raiden has to do this and Snake didn't'. Finding and activating them is not fun or tense, since the game gives you no other organic way to gauge enemy presence. They're there for the sole purpose of annoyance. Same with the character of Rose, because 'look Raiden has annoying relationship woes, but Snake didn't cuz he was cool'. The Boss fights are worse, with only Fatman being actually fun to fight. The rogues gallery is worse, the level lay-out is worse, and the codec calls are WAAAAAAY worse. And then there's the character of Fortune... Even if the game was brilliant I'd still dock 3 out of 10 points just for her.

The game explicitly comments on the disappointing nature of sequels by having the Shell ape Shadow Moses so blatantly. And then we have Ocelot literally say that this whole operation was supposed to be a perfect recreation of the Shadow Moses incident, but they failed. *wink wink nudge nudge*

The only good thing about MGS2 is the Tanker level, and not just because you get to play as Snake.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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I can immediately point to the stupid security nodes, which serve no purpose other than to point at Raiden and go 'hah ha, Raiden has to do this and Snake didn't'. Finding and activating them is not fun or tense, since the game gives you no other organic way to gauge enemy presence. They're there for the sole purpose of annoyance. Same with the character of Rose, because 'look Raiden has annoying relationship woes, but Snake didn't cuz he was cool'. The Boss fights are worse, with only Fatman being actually fun to fight. The rogues gallery is worse, the level lay-out is worse, and the codec calls are WAAAAAAY worse. And then there's the character of Fortune... Even if the game was brilliant I'd still dock 3 out of 10 points just for her.

The game explicitly comments on the disappointing nature of sequels by having the Shell ape Shadow Moses so blatantly. And then we have Ocelot literally say that this whole operation was supposed to be a perfect recreation of the Shadow Moses incident, but they failed. *wink wink nudge nudge*

The only good thing about MGS2 is the Tanker level, and not just because you get to play as Snake.
That’s an interesting way of looking at it. It’s always took MGS2 as a cultural critique, but I suppose it makes sense he was also using the same brush for the game itself. Even still though, when considering he’d pretty much have rather died than make anything beyond MGS3, it really says something when the amount of thought, effort, content and creativity he puts into even a game he hates working on still far outweighs the vast majority of his contemporaries.

I guess that’s why he has garnered such a rep as one of the industry’s most prominent auteurs.
 

meiam

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CDPR is one of the biggest gaming companies in the world and the largest one in Europe as of six months ago when it surpassed Ubisoft. They've been a major European player the last half decade, since the run-up to release of the Witcher 3 and has been making a ton of money off of GOG. They like to make themselves out as the small underdog that has more passion then resources and is somehow contending with the major players, but the truth is that they are the major player and they've got a ton of money and a massive staff.

Their games are good and GOG has been a relatively fair game store, but people need to stop cutting CDPR some slack. They are valued at almost 9 billion USD and their track record of mistreating employees is really stacking up. They need to be held to the same standard we would any other game developer/publisher instead of gamers offering excuses for why the largest game company in Europe is somehow different.
Their size is actually quite small as a gaming developer, GOG is making them seems bigger than they actually are and they only exceed ubisoft in market capitalization, which is not the same as company size, by asset they're much much smaller (also with the delay their valuation just took quite a downturn today, dunno what it is now). Their catalogue is paltry with only one original IP (maybe 2, TBH I'm not sure how much they even own of Gwent) and they release one game every 2 year. Also the european market is tiny, so being the biggest one there is not that big of an achievement. Simply put, if cyberpunk 2077 fail to deliver on it's sky high hype, they're going to take quite a big fall and they might not recover from that, this is their big chance and they really don't want to miss it.

Also crunch is really not that big a deal to finish of game just before release. There's plenty of cases where crunch does not help, but for the last few things that need to be done (bug finding and such) its not necessarily a bad move.
 

Baffle

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CDPR is one of the biggest gaming companies in the world and the largest one in Europe as of six months ago when it surpassed Ubisoft. They've been a major European player the last half decade, since the run-up to release of the Witcher 3 and has been making a ton of money off of GOG. They like to make themselves out as the small underdog that has more passion then resources and is somehow contending with the major players, but the truth is that they are the major player and they've got a ton of money and a massive staff.

Their games are good and GOG has been a relatively fair game store, but people need to stop cutting CDPR some slack. They are valued at almost 9 billion USD and their track record of mistreating employees is really stacking up. They need to be held to the same standard we would any other game developer/publisher instead of gamers offering excuses for why the largest game company in Europe is somehow different.
See also BrewDog.
 

Gethsemani

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Their size is actually quite small as a gaming developer, GOG is making them seems bigger than they actually are and they only exceed ubisoft in market capitalization, which is not the same as company size, by asset they're much much smaller (also with the delay their valuation just took quite a downturn today, dunno what it is now). Their catalogue is paltry with only one original IP (maybe 2, TBH I'm not sure how much they even own of Gwent) and they release one game every 2 year. Also the european market is tiny, so being the biggest one there is not that big of an achievement. Simply put, if cyberpunk 2077 fail to deliver on it's sky high hype, they're going to take quite a big fall and they might not recover from that, this is their big chance and they really don't want to miss it.
CDPR is a European company on an international market. Those 9 billion USD are international value, not confined specifically to Europe. CDPR also doesn't make or break with CP2077, as you yourself pointed out GOG is a significant portion of their revenue and thus their nominal value. CP2077 failing would be a serious blow, but just like Valve or Blizzard before them they are making banking from a second revenue source (Steam and WoW respectively) that means any individual game failing to live up to sales expectations isn't a make-or-break deal. It would hurt them, but it wouldn't tank them.

CDPR is a major player. As I pointed out earlier they are bigger in terms of share value then Ubisoft and no one would pretend that Ubisoft isn't a big deal. They might not be on Valve, MS or EA levels of big, but they are in the big leagues and have been for several years. Having 1,100 employees makes them a big company even if they aren't quite on the level of Epic (2,200) or ZeniMax (2,300) who are both considered big players in their own rights.

Also crunch is really not that big a deal to finish of game just before release. There's plenty of cases where crunch does not help, but for the last few things that need to be done (bug finding and such) its not necessarily a bad move.
I would really appreciate if people who want to use this defense for CDPR actually read Schreier's articles about CDPR before joining the discussion. He has several sources who confirm 'voluntary' crunch (as in, you are simply given more work then you can feasibly do in 40 hours a week and then get to make the individual decision to do overtime to cope with the workload) has been ongoing for over a year in the CP2077 team and several of them have been doing regular 100 hour weeks prior to the crunch announcement e-mail. CDPR isn't just doing the necessary final polish, they have been grinding their employees to the bone for years.

See also BrewDog.
But dude, they are a punk brewery. Surely they are all cool and small scale and independent and stuff!
 

Dalisclock

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Making no distinction between high brow and low brow culture is one of the hallmarks of post-modernist fiction, which is definitely what most of Kojima's work can be considered. Take one of my favourite novels, for example. Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. It's a book about how the progress of technology and the increasing power of global industry inevitably not only lead to the industrialized genocide that was the Holocaust, but also the constant fear of total annihilation that came with the Cold War. It's also a book in which people have a pie fight between hot air balloons, a man dresses as a pig, and a paranormal government agencies chases a man around Europe because they believe his erections predict the impact of missiles. Actually, I'm pretty sure that novel was a pretty big influence on the Metal Gear series and its distinctive brand of what I've seen described as "Military Surrealism". I think the tonal dissonance in Kojima's games, between pertinent social commentary, in depth elaboration on various political and philosophical topics, witty meta commentary on video games, but also over the top action, storytelling that that one would expect from superhero comicbooks and what can sometimes be very juvenile comic relief is surely jarring, but it is also most definitely intentional and most definitely a defining part of his style as a director.
Not to take away from anything else you've said, but I never thought about Gravity's Rainbow being an inspiration for Metal Gear and now that you've said that I can't unhear it. Oh my god, does that feel appropriate.

Also, you're like one of the first people I've met who has also read that book, though I'll admit I don't remember much of it other then some of the more surreal bits(including the entire part 4, which is where the whole thing went off the rails and off plot). I like to explain to people "I'm not exactly sure what it was about or what happened in Gravity's Rainbow, I just remember that it was interesting and it's stuck in my head despite my lack of comprehending much of it".
 

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Because I guess some people have nothing better to do in the meantime besides threaten to kill the folks making them wait a bit longer for thur enturtaynmunts.
"CD Projekt Red is the best development studio ever! Cyberpunk 2077 is gonna be awesome!"
(game is delayed)
"I KEEL YOU!"
 
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hanselthecaretaker

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"CD Projekt Red is the best development studio ever! Cyberpunk 2077 is gonna be awesome!"
(game is delayed)
"I KEEL YOU!"
Or, they could’ve really just them sent a pic of your avatar with a teardrop photoshopped in to more effectively reflect how they felt about another delay. They’d feel horrible enough knowing they made a wolf cry.
 

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Making no distinction between high brow and low brow culture is one of the hallmarks of post-modernist fiction, which is definitely what most of Kojima's work can be considered. Take one of my favourite novels, for example. Thomas Pynchon's Gravity's Rainbow. It's a book about how the progress of technology and the increasing power of global industry inevitably not only lead to the industrialized genocide that was the Holocaust, but also the constant fear of total annihilation that came with the Cold War. It's also a book in which people have a pie fight between hot air balloons, a man dresses as a pig, and a paranormal government agencies chases a man around Europe because they believe his erections predict the impact of missiles. Actually, I'm pretty sure that novel was a pretty big influence on the Metal Gear series and its distinctive brand of what I've seen described as "Military Surrealism". I think the tonal dissonance in Kojima's games, between pertinent social commentary, in depth elaboration on various political and philosophical topics, witty meta commentary on video games, but also over the top action, storytelling that that one would expect from superhero comicbooks and what can sometimes be very juvenile comic relief is surely jarring, but it is also most definitely intentional and most definitely a defining part of his style as a director.

A friend of mine recently joked that Death Stranding "Feels like it's directed by Michael Bay, when it doesn't feel like it's directed by Stanley Kubrick." and I couldn't exactly disagree with him. It does. I just don't think it's a bad thing. It's a style of writing that's only really possible in video games. No movie studio would provide adequate funding for a movie with a story like that of Death Stranding. Because it's weird, tonally bipolar and yes, sometimes awkward. But we should consider ourselves lucky something like it exists. Late in the game you get to a bossfight that involves two immortal postmen having a fistfight over the continued survival of mankind on a metaphysical beach that connects life and afterlife with fighting game health bars hovering above them. And frankly, this is the kind of shit that I play video games for. Interestingly enough, Last of Us 2 has a final bossfight that plays out in a somewhat similar way. You have a beach, you have two characters who are kinda foils to each other and you have a fist fight, even though for vastly different reasons. Both of these scenes invoke the visual language of low brow 80s - 90s action movies. The kind Schwarzenegger and Stallone or, if it's one of the better ones, Willis might have starred in. The difference is, where Druckmann pays homage to movies like that in a very straightforward way, Kojima elevates their iconography through larger than life scales and cheeky postmodernist flourishes like the aforementioned fighting game health bars or the fact that, in an earlier phase of the fight, you can literally beat your opponent with suitcases constaining Playstation 4 consoles. I enjoyed recent games like Last of Us 2, Ghost of Tsushima or Red Dead Redemption a lot for what they are. But they are all built, almost entirely, from the tropes, if not to say clichés of their respective genres. Death Stranding isn't just another Post Apocalyptic Survivors Tale and the Metal Gear games aren't just random Spy Thrillers. They all expand upon these genres in ways that make them not only more compelling as stories, games, and in the end, works of audiovisual media




No, I disagree. I think it terms of gameplay, MGS2 is an improvement on MGS1 in almost every way. It's not a bad game, neither intentionally or unintentionally.
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I never knew a book like that even existed.

Because I guess some people have nothing better to do in the meantime besides threaten to kill the folks making them wait a bit longer for thur enturtaynmunts.
Took the words right out of my mouth. Do these assholes not have other games to play while they wait? You got a cyberpunk game, albiet of a different gameplay style, that just launched for $30. Just play that for a while. You douche-bags.
 
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...........................................................................................................
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I never knew a book like that even existed.
Pynchon is a very.....interesting....author. Allegedly he doesn't even remember writing Gravity's Rainbow, because it was the 1970' s and apparently he was high as fuck a lot. Having read it I can believe it.

It's honestly hard to describe because of how fucking dense and trippy and weird it is. I'd say it's best just to read it, but honestly I'm not sure if that will make it any more understandable. I've resorted to the following summary "There are people who claim to understand Gravity's Rainbow. Those people are lying, because nobody understands Gravity's Rainbow".


Because I guess some people have nothing better to do in the meantime besides threaten to kill the folks making them wait a bit longer for thur enturtaynmunts.
Seriously, it can't be said enough. WTF is wrong with some people?

There is no game worth sending Death Threats over.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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Not to take away from anything else you've said, but I never thought about Gravity's Rainbow being an inspiration for Metal Gear and now that you've said that I can't unhear it. Oh my god, does that feel appropriate.

Also, you're like one of the first people I've met who has also read that book, though I'll admit I don't remember much of it other then some of the more surreal bits(including the entire part 4, which is where the whole thing went off the rails and off plot). I like to explain to people "I'm not exactly sure what it was about or what happened in Gravity's Rainbow, I just remember that it was interesting and it's stuck in my head despite my lack of comprehending much of it".
It's a difficult book. I was only really able to keep track of what's going on the second time I read it, too. And even then I can't tell you what most of the last act had to do with anything. It had a major impact on me. Genuinely shapes my political views.
 
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It's a difficult book. I was only really able to keep track of what's going on the second time I read it, too. And even then I can't tell you what most of the last act had to do with anything. It had a major impact on me. Genuinely shapes my political views.
I keep meaning to give it a 2nd read and see how it works now. I read a couple other of his books(The Crying of lot 49, Against the Day) and Against the Day surprised me how much easier it was to follow then Gravity's Rainbow. Not Significantly easier because it still has 4 main plots(each with its own style and genre) and a bunch of subplots over 1000+ pages and 30 years but more comprehensible.

Part 4 of Gravity's Rainbow feels like it's pretty much where Pynchon went peak Pynchon to the point narrative causality was more of less broken.....and then The 0000 Rocket gets fired and destroys the ending....I think.