Damn it, stop making me rich!

Beat14

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Jun 27, 2010
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Seems like a bit of a problem. Can you imagine if a game had an enemy, or mechanic where you could near enough lose everything, Not thinking of strategy games, the closest I comparison I can think of is something like demon/dark souls.

I played jagged alliance 2: Unfinished Business, I know it's a strategy game but I like the way you have to look after all your resources (humans come under that as well!). On a side note, is the remake worth playing, I got a refund off steam after the underwhelming reviews...
 

Dr Namgge

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Oct 21, 2009
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The problem is an economic one, one that not many games developers are qualified to solve. Unlike a real person, who has to eat, sleep, and be at a comfortable temperature (or at least not be freezing/burning) to survive, a videogame character can stand around for days at a time, and not do anything without suffering. Furthermore, videogame characters don't have desires. They don't have career goals beyond be the best at whatever the game is (Dragon slaying, Pokémon Master, or even more basic, get out of this Zombie infested hellhole ASAP), they don't have any urge to find love, settle down, raise a family, and so long as they don't willingly do stupid things, they don't have to worry about there health; that they're getting old, or might have a sudden and unexpected heart attack. Videogame characters are effectively immortal.

In the real world, human nature dictates that we always want more. Even if you have unlimited money, you will always find new things to buy. House(s), car(s) etc. you name it, you can have it. Even if you run into a shop, and buy everything you ever wanted, within a month there'll be something else you want. Videogame characters don't have this problem. At best, they already have a house, at worst, they don't even need one. There worlds are usually catered to only sell them useful stuff (sans the occasional novelty joke item, or decorative thing for those who want characters to look good), and there regular expenses only amount to ammo.

In the real world, you get a once a month pay cheque. This pays for food (which gets eaten, and will need to be re-bought), rent or mortgage, taxes and bills. By the end of it you may have enough to pay for things like insurance, fuel costs, pensions and other savings, and hopefully a bit left for spending on whatever you currently want, be it a new game, a few DVD's, or a night on the town. The actually, post expenses profit is minimal, and it takes so long to accrue, that most people won't save it all, as they don't want to live a life on basic noodles in shitty accommodation, as that's not really a desirable way to live.

But back in the game, your character goes into one fight, uses maybe two potions and five bullets, but gets enough money to buy three potions and twelve bullets. From one fight. And considering these are his only expenses every single fight is turning a profit. So while at first you start as a noob, and will have a lot more injuries, and a lot less skill, you will be more wasteful. But as you improve, your expenses go down, but your rewards don't, so your profit is higher.

However, there's no real economy. Nothing new is ever created. So, unlike the real world, where there's always new stuff to buy, in the game, you only have a finite number of items to choose from, and you can actually save up to buy them all. Because the game pays you too much, and yet only charges you for items you use. There are no other expenses, no other things to buy, and nothing else to worry about.

In real life, if you could live forever, and could work forever, it's also possible to have the same effect. But it takes far longer, as the profit margin for each pay cheque is much smaller. Likewise profiting is much harder, because there is never infinite resources. All games have an infinite money inside them, be it respawning enemies, being able to rob the same NPC's every time you re-enter a town, or through winning the same bet over an over against an NPC. The money is infinite, so you can amass the money without thinking. In real life, this doesn't happen. You cannot turn money from nothing, you have to do something for all money. To get a job requires there to be work, for there to be work, there has to be something you can do, that somebody else wants you to. You can't just run around randomly chopping down trees in the forest and waiting for the sky to give you money for it, you would have to actually find someone who wants to buy that wood from you, then get them to buy it, which means setting it at a resaonable price, then paying for upkeep of tools, and paying whoever owns the land. And even after all that, if you found someone willing to constantly buy wood, you would need to find a forest big enough to never run out of trees, or your business stops.

The problem is that real world mechanics aren't fun. Nobody wants to spend forty hours beating hundreds of enemies, to earn $100,000, only to have to lose some in tax and expenses, and then need to spend the rest buying food, rent, and being left with just enough to buy one more potion than you started with forty hours ago. videogames are escapism, and while being able to buy loads of stuff might make them too easy, the reverse would be boring again.

The only real workarounds are imposing tight money limits so you can't stockpile potions but allow you to carry as many as you can find, then restrict them to only findable in certain safe areas, only when you need them. Alternatively, create a fake economy in game, where items become more expensive based on how much money you actually have (in real economics, this is the same reason why we don't just print more paper money and give it out, it devalues a currency, and makes each new dollar printed worth slightly less in terms of what you can buy with it). The third option is to get rid of money altogether, and allow only bartering, whereby if you want an item, you have to give up one, or more, similarly valued items.

If you did scale up the money, I'd suggest doing it in terms of how much you've made, not how much you have. For instance, at the start, a potion costs 100, but then when you've earned 10,000, they go up to 500, and then up to 1,000 once you've earned 50,000, If the scale is slightly warped, each potion would cost you a larger percentage of the money you have on you, so that items actually cost more as the game gets harder, making these helpful items harder and harder to buy up until you beat the game (at which point they can go down, so you can enjoy the post game piss about).

The other option of course is to get rid of all money and trading, and make items available only as treasure found in dungeons, or dropped by enemies, setting a spawn rate on enemies that drop things like potions at such a rate that no (sane) person would want to grind for them.
 

BaronUberstein

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Odd, the only thing I dislike about Skyrim so far besides little aesthetic issues here and there, is how shopkeepers never have enough money to buy my loot. That and I want the ability to make a customizable estate somewhere and have a room filled with displays and mannequins. Oh! And how people don't seem to respect me any more when I'm the thane of several cities and own a mansion in the capital. I walk up to somebody and they treat me like I'm still some random mercenary. >_<

Mods are so much fun, though all I've used are some minor visual mods such as letting Argonian horns poke through hoods, and a mod that lets magic scale up in power the more you invest in it. Finally, my beginning spells aren't useless!
 

Guardian of Nekops

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May 25, 2011
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Thing is, there's always going to be an optimal way to play the game. For example, in Skyrim, the way to get the most money is to grab everything you can (even the worthless stuff that's worth only a gold or two) and then sell it back to shopkeepers. Spending a fair amount of your time waiting for them to get their money back. This very quickly becomes impractical, and it just as quickly becomes unnecessary.

Now, if you set the optimal way to play the game at the poverty line, meaning that you have to pick up every single bowl you see and hawk it to afford the equipment that you need to survive, the game becomes drudgery. Suddenly, the optimal way to play the game becomes the ONLY way to play the game, because nothing else gives you enough money. Each dungeon takes five trips and hours to clear, because you're carting back hundred of items each time to sell them all for fifty gold total so you can buy that one health potion... but the players who don't do that end up dead.

All in all, I'm just not seeing the incredible downgrade in difficulty that you're describing. Sure, you get more options later in games, but things are rarely reduced to trivial levels of challenge.

Interestingly, one of the best games I've played DID give you way too much power near the end if you played your cards right... Planescape Torment. By the end of that game I was a god, being able to bypass most challenges not one but FIVE different ways, but it all fit. My great power made sense in context, and made things so much more satisfying when it didn't... well. Good game. ^^
 

Pimppeter2

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Dec 31, 2008
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I recently ran out of gold in Skyrim.

I was absolutely shocked. But thats what you get for buying the world 3 times over
 

Emperor Nat

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Jun 15, 2011
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I had 1,000,000 gold pieces about 3/4 of the way through Kingdoms of Amalur.

I could buy anything in the game and bribe anyone at any time I wanted. xP
 

Starke

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Mar 6, 2008
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Honestly, replaying the original Crysis, I found the SCAR encourages this kind of gameplay through most of it. There's something like 1000 rounds of ammo for it in the entire game not counting the final map. It has an obscenely high rate of fire, so if you just spray and pray you'll be out of ammo before you get to the second map, and if you're insisting on holding onto it, that's one of your weapon slots chewed up right there. Combine that with refusing to dual wield the pistol (which makes it much harder to get ammo for it, because most ammo drops in fresh handguns), and you've set up an environment where the available ammo is incredibly scarce.
 

Sansha

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Nov 16, 2008
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I don't mind. I enjoy being rich, buying the biggest house in the game and building a museum display for my prizes and wearing an armor set that makes me look awesome... and wielding a weapon that'd make you not try to fuck with me.

I enjoy a challenge, and adjust the difficulty thusly, but I enjoy wallowing in the glory of my victories.
 

michael87cn

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Jan 12, 2011
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You have the intelligence to not utilize tools that are presented to you.

If the game provides too much money. The solution is simple - throw some away or don't use it. You can still fill your inventory with JUST enough to barely survive and get the same challenge.

It's better when games provide too much instead of too little. A game that's too hard isn't fun to anyone. A game that's just right provides options. Options are good.

Taking away options because you lack the creative ability to utilize the tools provided you, is not good.

Also, you're probably just not spending money on anything. There are a lot of things to buy in Skyrim. You're probably just lazy. :S
 

Zydrate

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Elmoth said:
The moment I chose to start training alchemy and blacksmith I was broke in a day. Spent like 30000 gold.

It's not that Skyrim gives you too much gold, there's little besides crafting/housing to spend it on.
30k on Blacksmithing?



I can get Smithing to 100 for around 5-8k. Depending on how early or late I do it, due to Speechcraft level.

I guess Alchemy is expensive? Haven't done much with it yet. Very little early-game payout, while I can get Dwarven smithing practically before 10.
 

loa

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Jan 28, 2012
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Elmoth said:
The moment I chose to start training alchemy and blacksmith I was broke in a day. Spent like 30000 gold.

It's not that Skyrim gives you too much gold, there's little besides crafting/housing to spend it on.
You can always get someone to teach you, then pickpocket the money spent on teaching you from them so you level pickpocket too. Yeah, that breaks the game by the by.
Gets you to the 50s of a skill you can find a teacher for easily before even fighting the first dragon.

It's funny how elder scrolls always seem to get completely broken by the most mundane skills ever like in morrowind, if you're a trader focusing on barter, you're a filthy rich indestructible god who maxes every skill there is out by buying it.
But that's kind of their appeal too. "Tricking the system".

As for broken economy in modern games, rpgs in general have a history of having f'ed up economies.
Just look at every final fantasy game ever.
 

Pebblig

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rhizhim said:
Zhukov said:
M-M-M-M-Monstersnip
mafia: city of lost heaven had you at one point loose all your money and clothing due to an assassination attempt by burning your house to the ground.

i think mafia 2 had one of this events, too.
.
Yes, Mafia 2 was repeatedly filled with "Life's alright at the moment", then suddenly "house is burned down". I have to say, I only played Mafia 2 recently (in October I think), it took me a couple of weeks, but only cost me £2.50 so I thought it was a fantastic game :)
 

CrystalShadow

don't upset the insane catgirl
Apr 11, 2009
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Games basically don't have an economy.

Which is where this problem comes from, (indirectly at least.)
While obviously part of this is a game design issue, (though how you would fix it is difficult to see without making the situation seem contrived.)

But what about economics itself?

The only reason an economy actually functions, is because there are resources everyone needs a constant supply of. (Food, water, air... to a lesser extent shelter)

And, all of these resources are in limited supply.

As a result there is always something someone is producing, and always consumers for at least some of this stuff.

But look at a game...

All that loot you collect has a value... This value is usually fixed, and shops will buy as much of it as you feel like selling them.

(Problem 1. Demand is infinite, and price is fixed. You get the same amount for the first arrow you sell, as the millionth. In a real economy, the market would be flooded and arrows would be almost worthless by that point.)

Further, where does this loot come from in the first place? Enemies have this stuff at random...
And there is an endless supply of enemies.

So... You can go on with collecting stuff forever, and again, what you can collect has no relation to what already exists. (more valuable stuff occurs less frequently, but is essentially still infinite)

(Problem 2. Supply is infinite.)

(The stuff you can buy in shops is even worse, since shops never tend to run out of stock.)

If you add problem 1 and 2 together you see that the only logical value for all that loot is pretty close to 0.
And since what you are getting paid for the loot you sell is a fixed amount which is almost always more than it would be worth if the game had a real economy...

The inevitable result must be that you will end up with more resources than you ever need.

Contrast this to one of the few games with a vaguely real economy (The space sim X3).
This too has some issues, because some things are bought for a fixed price (weapons are bought by a fixed number of supply stations. There's a limit to how much they will buy - their stock goes down over time, but since they always buy at a fixed price, and there are a fixed number of such stations, overall demand is completely fixed.)

Overall though this operates almost like a real economy. The number of factories fluctuates, and what is bought and sold has unpredictable prices.

It can take months to get yourself in a position where you can buy even the cheapest of capital ships...

But even here the problem is evident. Because... The more money you have, the easier it is to earn... more money.

(Oh, welcome to capitalism by the way. The easiest way to get rich is to already be rich. - well, the easiest way to get richer, anyway.)

Considering that real-world capitalism actually has exactly the same problem, I guess the inevitable conclusion may be that the reason this happens in games is that the only way it can be avoided requires the use of rules that most people would find quite disturbing.

(It would mean you have to get weaker the more effort you put in, ironically. Sure, you can hide this by making stronger enemies, but there's no escaping the fact that they have to be stronger to the extent that you are effectively weaker than when you started the game...)
 

Breywood

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Jun 22, 2011
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Denamic said:
Self-challenge.
Put a restriction on yourself and you can have the challenge back.
Like only fight using your fists, never drink potions, be a pacifist and never kill anything that you do not have to kill, etc.
Or play on hardest difficulty and install mods to make it even harder.
Deadly dragons + Master difficulty = death.
Problem solved.

Edit: Oh, right. PS3. Sucks to be you, I guess.
I have to quote this. If you find the game too easy, you can always impose restrictions on yourself and see how you fare.

Plenty of RPGs can give you an opportunity to do so. On the other hand, the more old school games told you to to rise to the occasion and take your flaying with some dignity.
 

SacremPyrobolum

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Dec 11, 2010
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I think the solution should not be to gimp the amount of resources you receive, but to gradually increase what you can do with them.

For example, in Annon you would need to start an Iron production chain pretty quickly to provide your town with tools and such.

However, even in the late game it is an important resource and higher quantities of it are needed.
 

PureIrony

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Aug 12, 2010
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Its kind of hard to ask developers to make all their games harder when not everyone is looking for a really tough experience. I'm not saying that games shouldn't be made a bit harder, or at least keep a challenge going for the entirety of their run, but...its just not something that would please everyone.

Why not just give yourself self-imposed challenges? If gold is too plentiful, try going through the game without speaking to any vendors. If the combat is too easy, try a no-kill(or at least, as close as one can get to a no-kill in Skyrim) run. Or hell, there are most definitely mods to the game that'll make it harder.
 

Paladin Anderson

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Nov 21, 2011
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Zhukov said:
iBagel said:
ESC > Settings > Difficulty > Master
Witty.

I tried that. If I were to edit my original post to reflect Skyrim's Master difficulty then the only change would be: "I could kill a dragon with eight of my 200+ arrows."
Do you have the game for the PC? There's plenty of Mods out there that make dragons, and enemies in general, FAR more difficult.
 

Starke

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Pebblig said:
rhizhim said:
Zhukov said:
M-M-M-M-Monstersnip
mafia: city of lost heaven had you at one point loose all your money and clothing due to an assassination attempt by burning your house to the ground.

i think mafia 2 had one of this events, too.
.
Yes, Mafia 2 was repeatedly filled with "Life's alright at the moment", then suddenly "house is burned down". I have to say, I only played Mafia 2 recently (in October I think), it took me a couple of weeks, but only cost me £2.50 so I thought it was a fantastic game :)
I remember having well over 20k in the free roam DLC at one point. Once you've gotten access to the chop shop making money hand over fist is stupidly easy. That said, Mafia 2 never really makes an issue out of how much money you have as a long term goal, it's always strictly tied to the story. And it doesn't really buy anything.