Dark Souls 2, PVP

[JohnReaper]

Okay first of all I know any souls game is about being hard, but also fair.

I also know that teh online Mechanic is core to the experince.

I say this now so my next statement has a tiny bit of context

In DKS2 you can be invaded at anytime. dead or alive. This concept while it looks good on paper, and with the devs wanting pvp to be more balanced (Giant MoM anyone?) than the last one I still think this is a horribly stupid idea.

I will be the first to admit, I'm a scrub when it comes to pvp. when I get invaded in DKS, the first thing I do is go full ham. using WOTG just to get it over with and done.

But here's where I see free reign to invade is a bad idea. Because I got stuck in Anor Londo. I couldn't get past the two royal servants to get to the boss. Not because I couldn't kill them, but because I needed help with the bosses forcing me into human form. and 9 times out of ten I would be invaded.

Yes I couldn't progress through the game because a player put it on him self to invade in anor londo.

Now imagine that, except now you have no control of when your gonna get invaded.

What do you think?

 

[ThePuzzldPirate]

Don't play online? Solaire is more than enough help to kill Snorlax and Pikachu. The online part of it is part of the Souls experience. You don't have to like it but that doesn't make it bad, hell, I'm looking forward to the new covenants where I get summoned to kill invaders. Don't want to get invaded? Don't play online. Asking help from people is that risk.

 

[JohnReaper]

Don't play online?

Snipped because you are right on all acounts, but it was my First play though But this stance on people who don't want to be invaded is what boggles my mind.

"Get good" VaatiVida
Thats a qoute from VaatiVida's video on the PVP. but here's the thing, I should miss out on all of the experince just because I don't want to deal with a brother hood of blood memeber who has a superiority complex that went around collecting gear and armor but not leveling up just so he can invade new characters/ players with the most epic gear he can find?

Yet apprently thats alright? but when a dark souls player hates the pvp because of how it was completely manipulated in the first game he gets smashed in the face with everyone yelling "Play offline." or "Don't get the game."

I admit I like pve, co=op over the random jerk invading with a +15 Chaos longsword, Chester's set. and still getting in on my level 20 knight character.

What give you the moral high ground to say "If you don't like pvp, play offline." do you understand what that entails? No saving, because you have to sign in to save.

I like coop, I like helping other players, I like getting something done as a team.

Now lets say it swung the other way.

Lets say Dark Souls 2 instead of focusing on pvp covents and pvp balance. had cut pvp back like they did summoned help? you would be complaining. and I would be there listening and asking why it couldn't be more pvp as well.

But no apprently Dark souls 2 is supposed to be a game that rewards the person wanting to min max a character. and ruin other players fun. over a player trying to survive dragleic.

ALSO to point at one flaw in your arguement,

"Being invaded is the result of wanting player help." Yes that was true for the first game, but now Summoned help is on a timer, Bloodletters are not. Bloodletter ruin the flow of the game just by invading because all that time it took you both to get there was ruined cause there's a red spirit sitting at the boss door and is doing the well what is it gesture ove and over.

Its no longer "Want help, then you might be invaded" its "You will be invaded, I hope you like speed runs or seeing the same dark cave over and over"

 

[JohnReaper]

Double post OP

 

[StriderShinryu]

I think lots of assumptions are being made without the game even being out (both of the positive and the negative) based on some information and a few beta tests.

We do know that invaders will be on a time limit along with helpers and we do know that there will be a covenant specifically designed with the intention of helping out those who are invaded. We know that invaders, at least currently, don't start with full HP. We also know that steps have been taken to balance combat even if we don't know the end result. Oh, and we also know that gear at least appears to have more requirements in place such that you're less likely to see people with high level gear being able to invade at lower levels. All of that stuff alone makes me less worried.

On top of all that, we don't really know what sort of rules there will be around invading once the game actually launches. Maybe the invasion window will be reduced to an even smaller level range. Maybe the covenants that are allowed to invade freely will have very strict or difficult limitations or requirements to enter. Maybe there will be a covenant and/or item that will actually stop being invaded all together at the cost of some sort of penalty (maybe half soul accumulation from enemy defeats or drastically reduced item drop %s for example).

In short, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to be concerned but it's very important to acknowledge that we don't really know all that much about the game's mechanics yet.

 

[JohnReaper]

I think lots of assumptions are being made without the game even being out (both of the positive and the negative) based on some information and a few beta tests.

We do know that invaders will be on a time limit along with helpers and we do know that there will be a covenant specifically designed with the intention of helping out those who are invaded. We know that invaders, at least currently, don't start with full HP. We also know that steps have been taken to balance combat even if we don't know the end result. Oh, and we also know that gear at least appears to have more requirements in place such that you're less likely to see people with high level gear being able to invade at lower levels. All of that stuff alone makes me less worried.

On top of all that, we don't really know what sort of rules there will be around invading once the game actually launches. Maybe the invasion window will be reduced to an even smaller level range. Maybe the covenants that are allowed to invade freely will have very strict or difficult limitations or requirements to enter. Maybe there will be a covenant and/or item that will actually stop being invaded all together at the cost of some sort of penalty (maybe half soul accumulation from enemy defeats or drastically reduced item drop %s for example).

In short, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to be concerned but it's very important to acknowledge that we don't really know all that much about the game's mechanics yet.

thank you for this. but another thing that bothers me is everyones attitude towards the whole pvp vs pve. I get alot of messages saying that Co-op is less pure than pvp and alot of people wouldn't be upset to see it leave the game all together.

 

[default]

In regards to the minmaxing, perhaps the gear you are using and what level it is will factor into the level range you can invade as well?

I'm really looking forward to DS2 and am excited about these new changes. Souls PvP is my jam and it sounds like a far more stable and interesting experience.

 

[StriderShinryu]

I think lots of assumptions are being made without the game even being out (both of the positive and the negative) based on some information and a few beta tests.

We do know that invaders will be on a time limit along with helpers and we do know that there will be a covenant specifically designed with the intention of helping out those who are invaded. We know that invaders, at least currently, don't start with full HP. We also know that steps have been taken to balance combat even if we don't know the end result. Oh, and we also know that gear at least appears to have more requirements in place such that you're less likely to see people with high level gear being able to invade at lower levels. All of that stuff alone makes me less worried.

On top of all that, we don't really know what sort of rules there will be around invading once the game actually launches. Maybe the invasion window will be reduced to an even smaller level range. Maybe the covenants that are allowed to invade freely will have very strict or difficult limitations or requirements to enter. Maybe there will be a covenant and/or item that will actually stop being invaded all together at the cost of some sort of penalty (maybe half soul accumulation from enemy defeats or drastically reduced item drop %s for example).

In short, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to be concerned but it's very important to acknowledge that we don't really know all that much about the game's mechanics yet.

thank you for this. but another thing that bothers me is everyones attitude towards the whole pvp vs pve. I get alot of messages saying that Co-op is less pure than pvp and alot of people wouldn't be upset to see it leave the game all together.

Well, to be frank, the game is designed with invasions in mind. Most steps put in place around invasions are built to curb what you could say (and what the developers likely would say) is the natural state of the game. PvP, though not the organized and mediated duel type of it, is meant to be an intrinsic part of the experience. Co-Op, on the other hand, is specifically designed to be difficult. It's supposed to be catch as catch can, and you're not really meant to be able to just easily get together with a friend or two and duo/trio your way through content. I can understand that a lot of people enjoy that Co-Op experience, and given the difficulty of the game at a base level I can see why someone would want Co-Op. It's not, however, how the game is designed and it seems DS2 is taking steps to make Co-Op even less reliable as a helping method.

If someone is pointing that out to you, then they're really not wrong. If they're being dicks about it, then they're just dicks.. but they may not be wrong in their message even if the delivery is poor.

 

[ThePuzzldPirate]

Don't play online?

Snipped because you are right on all acounts, but it was my First play though But this stance on people who don't want to be invaded is what boggles my mind.

"Get good" VaatiVida
Thats a qoute from VaatiVida's video on the PVP. but here's the thing, I should miss out on all of the experince just because I don't want to deal with a brother hood of blood memeber who has a superiority complex that went around collecting gear and armor but not leveling up just so he can invade new characters/ players with the most epic gear he can find?

When you don't want to opt in to an optional thing than yes your going to miss out on part of the experience. We aren't telling you to play offline cause of a complex, we are telling you because these are your options. These are the facts, you aren't being misinformed on the experience. This is the experience. Again, you don't have to like it.

Do you understand what that entails? No saving, because you have to sign in to save.

Completely False, I take it you are talking about PC but it saves both locally and cloud base but for some reason they aren't synced. You can take that up with GFWL for that weird system.
EDIT: I stand corrected, I have a mod installed which allows local saves, forgive me.

Lets say Dark Souls 2 instead of focusing on pvp covents and pvp balance. had cut pvp back like they did summoned help? you would be complaining. and I would be there listening and asking why it couldn't be more pvp as well.

Your making the assumption on how I react because I like something which you shouldn't do.

But no apprently Dark souls 2 is supposed to be a game that rewards the person wanting to min max a character. and ruin other players fun. over a player trying to survive dragleic.

If he isn't playing online, this isn't a problem? Not online, doesn't have to deal with mechanics of the game you dislike. Again I don't see where the issue is, cause your losing the ability of PVE? Risk reward is the basis of all conflicts.

"Being invaded is the result of wanting player help." Yes that was true for the first game, but now Summoned help is on a timer, Bloodletters are not. Bloodletter ruin the flow of the game just by invading because all that time it took you both to get there was ruined cause there's a red spirit sitting at the boss door and is doing the well what is it gesture ove and over.

Its no longer "Want help, then you might be invaded" its "You will be invaded, I hope you like speed runs or seeing the same dark cave over and over"

Yes, they are on a timer but it also the invader is in a 3 vs 1 even when they do, even worse is the fact that you don't have to stop summoning people when they dissapper. That also doesn't stop that there are two covenants that are solely for countering invaders which will join the game without your consent with the sole goal of killing him.

Your making huge assumptions on a game that isn't even out yet. Short of beta gameplay, we have nothing to go off of. We will have to wait and see when the game comes out and analyze the mechanics to find out if they are bad or not. We don't know if it will work objectively yet, so I'm giving you a objective answer which is don't play online. I will give you a subjective one when I actually have it in my hands.

 

[JohnReaper]

I think lots of assumptions are being made without the game even being out (both of the positive and the negative) based on some information and a few beta tests.

We do know that invaders will be on a time limit along with helpers and we do know that there will be a covenant specifically designed with the intention of helping out those who are invaded. We know that invaders, at least currently, don't start with full HP. We also know that steps have been taken to balance combat even if we don't know the end result. Oh, and we also know that gear at least appears to have more requirements in place such that you're less likely to see people with high level gear being able to invade at lower levels. All of that stuff alone makes me less worried.

On top of all that, we don't really know what sort of rules there will be around invading once the game actually launches. Maybe the invasion window will be reduced to an even smaller level range. Maybe the covenants that are allowed to invade freely will have very strict or difficult limitations or requirements to enter. Maybe there will be a covenant and/or item that will actually stop being invaded all together at the cost of some sort of penalty (maybe half soul accumulation from enemy defeats or drastically reduced item drop %s for example).

In short, I don't think it's necessarily wrong to be concerned but it's very important to acknowledge that we don't really know all that much about the game's mechanics yet.

thank you for this. but another thing that bothers me is everyones attitude towards the whole pvp vs pve. I get alot of messages saying that Co-op is less pure than pvp and alot of people wouldn't be upset to see it leave the game all together.

Well, to be frank, the game is designed with invasions in mind. Most steps put in place around invasions are built to curb what you could say (and what the developers likely would say) is the natural state of the game. PvP, though not the organized and mediated duel type of it, is meant to be an intrinsic part of the experience. Co-Op, on the other hand, is specifically designed to be difficult. It's supposed to be catch as catch can, and you're not really meant to be able to just easily get together with a friend or two and duo/trio your way through content. I can understand that a lot of people enjoy that Co-Op experience, and given the difficulty of the game at a base level I can see why someone would want Co-Op. It's not, however, how the game is designed and it seems DS2 is taking steps to make Co-Op even less reliable as a helping method.

If someone is pointing that out to you, then they're really not wrong. If they're being dicks about it, then they're just dicks.. but they may not be wrong in their message even if the delivery is poor.

I guess my message is getting mixed up in the delivery. I don't Duo or Trio through content like so many others, to put it into prespective, I like to put down my summon sign at the bonfires I come across and as I work my way through it if I get summoned I get summoned, if I don't I don't. I rarely play with the same guy twice, and if I do its because they were looking for me Or something out of my control.

Whats bothering me, is players like me, who could care less about killing absoultely everyone to prove i'm better.

And yes I'll be the first to admit i'm assuming alot, but I'm drawing these assumptions because of how much information I have, No one is talking about PVE or Co-op except for the nerfs, or to take jabs at players that don't want to play pvp. All I have heard on repeat is "You can Invade everyone, even the players that don't want to be invaded."

With the new covents I feel its a double edge sword, because Unless the rewards are equal for killing the invader, as it is for invading, there is going to have a situation where you don't have enough Blue Team ((Lets face it its basicly RvB now)) to deal with all of the red invaders.

So players like me who don't like the pvp from the first game are being told with one hand, the way you like to play, is no longer thought of as equal with pvp. while the other is giving all of these benefits to invaders. I admit I was wrong about White phantoms only having the the timer. apperantly so do all phantoms. which eases it up but it still leaves the problem of invaders minmaxing right out of the gate just to stop other players from winning. if the pvp is completely balanced with anybuild beign able to beat any build then I take all of my gripes back.

 

[cthulhuspawn82]

Forced PvP is a stupid idea in a Souls game. These games, at lest until you learn them, are very hard and you have to fight for every inch you advance. If I managed to overcome a very difficult part of the game only to be ganked before reaching the next bonfire, that would be enough for me to quit. Souls games are hard enough as it is, you don't need someone ruining your progress the whole time as well.

I have also made my views clear on PvPers in the past. I don't care how great you think PvP is. Everyone thinks sex is great, but there are few people who we find more disgusting then those who want "non-consensual sex". I have the same level of respect for those who want "non-consensual" PvP.

That analogy is more terrifyingly apt than many people realize. Rapists don't do what they do because they cant get any legally and consequentially. They don't want consensual sex, they want to brutalize someone. Likewise, PvPers don't want to fight willing opponents, at least not all the time. They want to brutalize those who wish to be left alone. Killing a guy who logged on to fight is no fun. They want to kill the guy who is trying to pick flowers for a quest. Brutalizing him and ruining his day gives them satisfaction. There is no fun in a willing opponent.

 

[StriderShinryu]

So players like me who don't like the pvp from the first game are being told with one hand, the way you like to play, is no longer thought of as equal with pvp. while the other is giving all of these benefits to invaders. I admit I was wrong about White phantoms only having the the timer. apperantly so do all phantoms. which eases it up but it still leaves the problem of invaders minmaxing right out of the gate just to stop other players from winning. if the pvp is completely balanced with anybuild beign able to beat any build then I take all of my gripes back.

I would say that it's more like the developers are sort of trying to claw things back on both sides. They likely didn't want co-op to be quite as useful/powerful as it was, and they likely didn't want invaders to be quite as powerful as they ended up being either. From what we do know at this point it does feel like tweaks are being made all around to enable invading but give the invaded more tools to fight back in both mechanics and general balance. The natural state of the Souls games, however, is to allow and support invasions. If invasions were curtailed in Dark Souls, and if that's the sort of play that you preferred, that's fine. You were, however, preferring to playing the game as the developers didn't really intend it to be played which I believe is being shown by the changes they are making to DS2.

 

[Bebus]

I'd like to see the introduction of an item/spell that can be used as PVP denial: a ring that stops people invading, an item or spell that banishes invaders, and so on. I think if the developers are going to make PVP a more common occurrence then the game should also give players who don't want to PVP more options to avoid it other than "play offline". It would be a pretty neat solution, all things considered.

 

[Ishal]

Forced PvP is a stupid idea in a Souls game. These games, at lest until you learn them, are very hard and you have to fight for every inch you advance. If I managed to overcome a very difficult part of the game only to be ganked before reaching the next bonfire, that would be enough for me to quit. Souls games are hard enough as it is, you don't need someone ruining your progress the whole time as well.

I have also made my views clear on PvPers in the past. I don't care how great you think PvP is. Everyone thinks sex is great, but there are few people who we find more disgusting then those who want "non-consensual sex". I have the same level of respect for those who want "non-consensual" PvP.

That analogy is more terrifyingly apt than many people realize. Rapists don't do what they do because they cant get any legally and consequentially. They don't want consensual sex, they want to brutalize someone. Likewise, PvPers don't want to fight willing opponents, at least not all the time. They want to brutalize those who wish to be left alone. Killing a guy who logged on to fight is no fun. They want to kill the guy who is trying to pick flowers for a quest. Brutalizing him and ruining his day gives them satisfaction. There is no fun in a willing opponent.

This game, far as we know, is meant to be that way IF you are playing online. The entire world and everything is built around humans going hollow, and doing EVERYTHING in their power to stave off hollowing, including joining covenants like the Brotherhood of Blood to take souls, effigies, blood, or whatever they're after. Dems the breaks. It's not supposed to be "consensual" unless they're using a red soapstone, or whatever this game's equivalent is. It's called "invading" for a reason. There are tons of ways to deal with PvP'ers in DKS II, they invade on a timer just like every other phantom, plus are at 75% HP.

Don't like it? Play offline. You at least have that option, which people shouldn't turn their nose at.

 

[Denamic]

Not because I couldn't kill them, but because I needed help with the bosses forcing me into human form. and 9 times out of ten I would be invaded.

Well, the invasion timer is 10 minutes, so unless you're clearing out every enemy in the building very slowly, you should have time for 1 or 2 attempts at the boss without invasions even if you were invaded as frequently as physically possible without using the dried finger.

Also, Giants isn't actually OP. The set has the highest defense, sure, but the advantage that gives is not actually that great. You can be completely naked while wielding nothing but a target shield and bandit's knife and win, even at SL 150+. I spent a few days doing that in the gardens. That's with loads and loads of wasted points as I was a strength/endurance/faith/int character, too. Like everything BUT dex. And I didn't even use any sorceries. (Normally used Darkmoon catalyst, as I had higher faith than int, but used mainly sorceries. Also, it's lighter than most other catalysts)

Point is, min/maxing gives an advantage, but it's really not OP. People who win against you played better than you, except for low level twinks. In those cases, take solace in that though they most likely will kill you with superior equipment when you're at low level yourself, they also often invade high level players and get pulverized. So there's that.

 

[JagermanXcell]

You underestimate the power of a Souls game on release day.
Everyone is going in fresh, not to mention if some lucky hundred of us are going in invading right off the bat, it'll be with base gear.
And if someone does find a way to twink/hack (after playing the beta where they gave no information on how the smithing system works), they'll, a long with us who play fair, have to worry about the new Blue Sentinels covenant (that and From kind of sort of has a dedicated server now, so imagine all those modding scrubs in the book of the guilty from Dks1 getting the boot, yeah that's gonna happen!).

THE BLUE SENTINELS PEOPLE, the answer to all your problems. If you're alone and being invaded, they're there for you, they've got your back, they can't be harmed by enemies, and their soul purpose of being there is to kill off your invader so you can advance unscathed, and if your fellow blue is having trouble DO NO BE AFRAID TO GANK THE INVADER.

There is no honor code like people who are strict PVP says there is, you have every right to 2/3v1 an invade if you want to advance in the PVE. I as an invader needs to deal with that, and thats fine cause I love the idea of getting ganked! From balanced the game so that we all can have a fair PVE/PVP experience that everyone can be satisfied conquering.
This is a much better system then the "SUMMONING FAILED" and "FAILED TO INVADE" Dks1 had anyways.

Now enough of these petty complaint threads! My hype for this game can only take so much!!!!!

I'd like to see the introduction of an item/spell that can be used as PVP denial: a ring that stops people invading, an item or spell that banishes invaders, and so on. I think if the developers are going to make PVP a more common occurrence then the game should also give players who don't want to PVP more options to avoid it other than "play offline". It would be a pretty neat solution, all things considered.

I was thinking they add a ring that makes you immune from invaders. The cost being you lose a ring slot, which when you think about it is a PRETTY big deal.
So yeah I'm all for a risk/reward ring, that definitely fits with the game's challenge.

 

[demoman_chaos]

Why do people seem to forget the online is more than just players coming into your game? You get messages that can be quite useful or amusing. You get the white phantoms which can help reveal hidden enemies or traps. In Demon's Souls (I despise how often people forget about the grossly superior predecessor), you also had tendency events which were effected by the global servers (Halloween for example could set all worlds to pure black, which is like the Gravelord Servant's curse).

I despise invaders, so much so that I keep a homeward bone as the active item. As soon as it goes dark (can't use it when invaded, and it going dark is evidence you are being selected for invasion), I either quit game or go to a nearby bonfire (though I've been kicked out of a bonfire menu so someone could invade me before). I've been dicked over too much to give a fuck. I always join the Way of White/Sunlight Warriors to further minimize the risks.

 

[loa]

I like co-op but I hate the lagstabfest travesty that is dark souls pvp and making that asshole level 1 maxed pyromancy invader who camps undead burg literally all day long only avoidable by ripping the internet cable out of the console which of course means you can also no longer do all the other online things that are less shit is a complete abortion, even if they "balance the pvp" or something since people who don't want to pvp won't give a shit how "balanced" it is.

Leave pvp to people who actually want pvp.
Invaders don't like getting kicked by someone who disconnects and what is the point of fighting someone who doesn't want to fight you and doesn't have pvp equipment or anything and players who don't want to do pvp don't like getting invaded nonstop.
The only sort of people this directly benefits are trolls.

 

[King of Asgaard]

The problem I have with the PvP isn't that invaders come at you with uber-powered gear, though admittedly, it does cut down on my online time early on, but more on the shitty latency issues. I hate being hit with a spell that missed me by about 5 metres on my screen because 'lag lol'. As well as that, hackers and cheaters have run rampant online of late, dissuading me from even attempting to participate.

DkS 2 having you constantly at risk of being invaded is only an issue if the above problems aren't ironed out by launch. If there's some semblance of stability online, I'd be more than happy to invade/fend off some invaders, but until said stability is implemented, I'll just have to grit my teeth and bear it, because not playing online would be a disservice.

Also...

+15 Chaos longsword

Casul

 

[Denamic]

I like co-op but I hate the lagstabfest travesty that is dark souls pvp and making that asshole level 1 maxed pyromancy invader who camps undead burg literally all day long only avoidable by ripping the internet cable out of the console which of course means you can also no longer do all the other online things that are less shit is a complete abortion, even if they "balance the pvp" or something since people who don't want to pvp won't give a shit how "balanced" it is.

Pyromancy is pretty terrible in PvP though. Everything you can do with pyromancy is extremely easy to dodge, with the soul exception of combustion spells, which are only very easy to dodge. As a low level twink, you're better off just getting a +5 lightning weapon. More powerful, cheaper, and easier to use. Or just throw poison daggers.