Dark Souls: Initial Thoughts

[Xyphon]

I also hate this game because I'm stuck in the Undead Parish with no way to advance without being slaughtered by the Titanite Demon. I really don't like bosses that can 1-2 hit me while basically being invulnerable to my efforts and having obscene amounts of health to boot. That's not gameplay design; that's just fucked up.

Why not just, you know, run past him? Also, have you rung the first bell yet? If not, you're not exactly proceeding on the right path trying to get past the demon.

 

[QueenOliver]

Here are my thoughts after 16 hours of play so far.

I can't recall a game in recent memory where I have felt such a range of emotions while playing. At times I'm dreading the unknown around the next corner. At other times I feel like a bad ass while swatting down waves of enemies after I've mastered certain sections. I also can't describe the euphoric feeling you get from taking down a boss that felt borderline impossible and acquiring cool loot.

With that being said, I can't help but scratch my head in regards to some of the development decisions. At times I truly feel that the devs went overboard with this so called high "difficulty".

A perfect example of this is the placement of game breaking enemies that can "curse", without any nearby access to any of the cures to remove the negative status effects. In case someone doesn't know, the curse halves your health every time you are affected by the attack which can also stack. So if you get cursed once your health goes to 1/2 health, then 1/4 and 1/8 respectively. The game is difficult enough without having to deal with this problem, and having to back track hours to get back to the beginning of the game to find the "cure" is so difficult that many players are forced to restart the game as most enemies can simply 1 shot you with the reduced health.

Before anyone points out that it's easy to avoid being cursed, that's not the point. As many people have already pointed out, the enemy AI is far from perfect, and the enemies often see you across the map and end up in areas that are impossible to avoid- such as curse spewing Basilisks clumping up under the ladders in the Great Hollow.

In the game's defense, there are only a few sections in the game where you have to worry about this problem. However, in a game that's predicated on "trial and error", why wouldn't the devs put a cure near these areas? Why is the merchant literally hours away in unreachable areas?

In my opinion this game could have been a true masterpiece. I can honestly say that DS is one of the "better" games that I have played this year. However, with that being said, there are too many instances where I feel the game is too frustrating for it's own good.

There are so many things the game does right, but these types of design flaws ruin the experience. There is nothing wrong with the "trial-and-error" type design of the game where death awaits around every corner until you learn to deal with each section, however having basically permanent status affects that can't be removed takes things too far.

The merchant in the aqueduct that leads to Firelink Shrine sells the cure. You can't get to the Depths without getting access to her, and it requires very little backtracking to reach her.

There are indeed some examples of odd distribution of items though, most notably embers. In Demon's Souls there was only one item you needed in order to unlock all of the crafting options, and you could obtain it as early as your third boss encounter out of 16. In Dark Souls there are 9 embers to unlock crafting paths, they're distributed all over the game, you have to take them to different blacksmiths, and it will take quite a while to even access the first one. You still have access to basic upgrades, but it's annoying when you want to upgrade your character in one way but can't.

EDIT: Also, I don't think you can get to the Depths without ringing the first bell, though I could be wrong. I don't really remember how I got the basement key. But if I'm right, you'll have access to Oswald who sells the item.

 

[Dansen]

Here are my thoughts after 16 hours of play so far.

I can't recall a game in recent memory where I have felt such a range of emotions while playing. At times I'm dreading the unknown around the next corner. At other times I feel like a bad ass while swatting down waves of enemies after I've mastered certain sections. I also can't describe the euphoric feeling you get from taking down a boss that felt borderline impossible and acquiring cool loot.

With that being said, I can't help but scratch my head in regards to some of the development decisions. At times I truly feel that the devs went overboard with this so called high "difficulty".

A perfect example of this is the placement of game breaking enemies that can "curse", without any nearby access to any of the cures to remove the negative status effects. In case someone doesn't know, the curse halves your health every time you are affected by the attack which can also stack. So if you get cursed once your health goes to 1/2 health, then 1/4 and 1/8 respectively. The game is difficult enough without having to deal with this problem, and having to back track hours to get back to the beginning of the game to find the "cure" is so difficult that many players are forced to restart the game as most enemies can simply 1 shot you with the reduced health.

Before anyone points out that it's easy to avoid being cursed, that's not the point. As many people have already pointed out, the enemy AI is far from perfect, and the enemies often see you across the map and end up in areas that are impossible to avoid- such as curse spewing Basilisks clumping up under the ladders in the Great Hollow.

In the game's defense, there are only a few sections in the game where you have to worry about this problem. However, in a game that's predicated on "trial and error", why wouldn't the devs put a cure near these areas? Why is the merchant literally hours away in unreachable areas?

In my opinion this game could have been a true masterpiece. I can honestly say that DS is one of the "better" games that I have played this year. However, with that being said, there are too many instances where I feel the game is too frustrating for it's own good.

There are so many things the game does right, but these types of design flaws ruin the experience. There is nothing wrong with the "trial-and-error" type design of the game where death awaits around every corner until you learn to deal with each section, however having basically permanent status affects that can't be removed takes things too far.

You actually got cursed, wow, you are pretty bad, as soon as I saw the meter building as I entered the smoke I backed off. Status haven't been a terrible problem for me. The toxic dart guys got me once, but that has been it, and they don't re-spawn once you kill them apparently. I think status's are a good idea, it adds more urgency then just blocking attacks, now you need to make sure you attack eventually or gain some distance or else you will end up with an annoying status.

 

[QueenOliver]

You actually got cursed, wow, you are pretty bad, as soon as I saw the meter building as I entered the smoke I backed off. Status haven't been a terrible problem for me. The toxic dart guys got me once, but that has been it, and they don't re-spawn once you kill them apparently. I think status's are a good idea, it adds more urgency then just blocking attacks, now you need to make sure you attack eventually or gain some distance or else you will end up with an annoying status.

I like the cursed ailment too, but I wouldn't say he's a bad player for failing to avoid it. If you don't know it's coming, you might just register the meter as a similar ailment to poison or bleeding. However, if you've paid attention to the purpose of items on the course of your journey it's easy enough to take care of it, and Dark Souls is all about rewarding your attention. It's easy enough to avoid getting hit with curse a second time once you know about it.

 

[AlternatePFG]

I like the cursed ailment too, but I wouldn't say he's a bad player for failing to avoid it. If you don't know it's coming, you might just register the meter as a similar ailment to poison or bleeding. However, if you've paid attention to the purpose of items on the course of your journey it's easy enough to take care of it, and Dark Souls is all about rewarding your attention. It's easy enough to avoid getting hit with curse a second time once you know about it.

Well, your first encounter with the curse enemies is pretty tricky. You fall into the room, and the frog thing is right around the corner. You roll further down the hallway to avoid that, and run into like 2 more.

Curing curse is pretty easy though, you can get like 8 free cures if you find the cracked redstones near Firelink Shrine, and take them to the crow in the Asylum.

 

[QueenOliver]

I like the cursed ailment too, but I wouldn't say he's a bad player for failing to avoid it. If you don't know it's coming, you might just register the meter as a similar ailment to poison or bleeding. However, if you've paid attention to the purpose of items on the course of your journey it's easy enough to take care of it, and Dark Souls is all about rewarding your attention. It's easy enough to avoid getting hit with curse a second time once you know about it.

Well, your first encounter with the curse enemies is pretty tricky. You fall into the room, and the frog thing is right around the corner. You roll further down the hallway to avoid that, and run into like 2 more.

Curing curse is pretty easy though, you can get like 8 free cures if you find the cracked redstones near Firelink Shrine, and take them to the crow in the Asylum.

Yeah, but it can be a while before you figure out you can go back to the asylum, never mind the ability to trade. I think most people will know about the curse curing item from perusing Oswald's stock, and any player who hopes to succeed had better be perusing every merchant's stock.

 

[Dr.Panties]

snip.

Attack patterns vary enormously. Sometimes the zombie raising his sword will swing once, easy enough. Sometimes he'll swing in a massive stabbing frenzy or he will suddenly speed up his attack animation. Some moves track, others don't (actually most do, it's pretty cheap).
For the umpteenth time (as you peopl seem incapable of grasping simple english): it isn't that the enemies are tough that's the problem with the game.
A single arbitrary choice of difficulty is a meaningless design choice. It's self limiting and counter productive. One person's brutal difficulty is another person's easy game. What matters is how the game handles difficulty and how it penalises the player in terms of failure. IN this case, the player is forced into the most tedious mind numbing boring repetition for no reason. People that enjoy this need their heads tested.
Telling me that i'm 'whining' because you are too stupid to understand what i've written, in clear fucking english (a language you yanks need to learn) is taking the piss. Don't sit their and hide your insults behind niceties and pretend you have the moral high ground. You don't.
Most games reward your efforts more than Dark Souls. The only reward this game gives you is a slight change in scenery. THere is no depth to this experience, the layout of the 'open world', as was touted, is linear and the lack of tools for the player is a joke. I could punch myself in the face fifteen times and feel a sense of reward, less pain in my jaw for starters, just because I stopped punching myself in the face. This notion of reward is disingenuous at best. Sure you might punch the air having beatn THE GREAT MONSTER OF DOOM but if you've spent ten hours previously trying to do so then it's not much of a victory is it.
The fact this game is so badly made is just icing on the cake.

Oh hush, you petulant, pretentious tool. Tell us again how foolish we are to enjoy a game like this. I love that part. Just priceless. Hey, be sure to throw around some more entirely subjective terms pertaining to what constitutes "bad design". Bigot.

Then, you can project conveniently twisted notions of "moral high ground" upon those you have consistently baited and insulted throughout most of this thread. Troll.

Finally, you can fall back on "get a life", which is so deliciously ironic, given the amount of time you have devoted to a game that obviously does not cater to your own particular tastes, not to mention the time taken to berate those that happen to enjoy it. Nice life you got there, hypocrite.

Spin on, you cracked record of failure.

 

[krazykidd]

I'm also stuck at the new lando boss , i'm lvl 60 and can't for the life of me kill it .

Spoiler

I managed to do it easily with a heavy set of lightning resistant gear + a lightning weapon, and beating Smough first. I then just sat directly under his skinny buddy and was only ever hit by his lightning jump... which I only took about a vitality worth of damage from with my shield up (was using Havards stuff)Just make sure you have enough stamina to block it, and back up a bit when he does jump.

Oh i meant new londo , abyss ,four kings , i suceeded by rushing them with a 2 hand spear , and the inner flame pyromancy spell, manage to kill each before the next spawn , kinda a dps race was fun, except for the 4 hours i spent dying lol

. But the tip you gave me for ando londo was helpful, until second boss went all mega berserk when smoogh died . Decided to do the oposite ...left smough for last , since he has less hp ( or takes more damage ). Anyways , it took 10 flasks and 7 humanities ( which offered to my covenant afterwards ) but i got it done , that fight was a ***** , for me at least . I honestly think i suck as this game lol , but i keep pushing and keep getting further.

The Four Kings is destroying me. Do I really have to just run in recklessly and go berserk to beat them? That goes against everything that the game has taught me. And yes, the Orstein and Smough fight was a *****.

Well , me too lol , i think thats why it took me so long , i never rush bosses , but on this fight it seemed necessary , because the bosses spawn one at a time ( they also respawn ) fighting one is hard enough , but having all four atrackig you at once is almost instant game over . If you saved the pyromancy teacher in the depths, he will sell you the pyromancy hand . In blightown you find the power within spell , which boost your attack but drains you hp over time. Anyways what i did was use that spell right before boss , held my spear with both hands and ran up to the boss and started spaming heavy attack. And it worked . Each of the four kings spawns after a set amount of time , so you really want to try and kill each before the next one comes. Also if you are too far the boss will summon a lightning homing spell which does quit a bit of damage even if you are blocking , so you want to be close to him. Just watch for his tell for his grab attack and his AOE... when he does that run like hell. Like i said in the peevious post , i found it to be a dps race.

Hope that helps

 

[QueenOliver]

Attack patterns vary enormously. Sometimes the zombie raising his sword will swing once, easy enough. Sometimes he'll swing in a massive stabbing frenzy or he will suddenly speed up his attack animation. Some moves track, others don't (actually most do, it's pretty cheap).

I love the way you ignore everyone's counter-points only to skulk back here and repeat your already demolished arguments. You're hilarious. Like a clown.

In case you haven't noticed, enemy attacks are much slower than those you will find in, say, Ninja Gaiden. Somehow everyone except you has been able to pull off blocks and dodges in both games. And most people feel that unpredictable enemies is a GOOD thing. Not that I would call enemy attacks in Dark Souls particularly unpredictable. For all of the enemies in every environment I've reached so far, it hasn't taken me long to study their attack patterns enough to know how to defend and counter. Except for those fucking giant mosquitoes in Blighttown. Fuck them. And Ceaseless Discharge. He's an asshole.

For the umpteenth time (as you peopl seem incapable of grasping simple english): it isn't that the enemies are tough that's the problem with the game.

You are the one here who has failed to back up their argument. I and others have addressed your arguments and shown numerous examples of where your points are invalid, and all you do is ignore them and repeat your childish rhetoric. We are not the ones with questionable comprehension skills. You debate at the level of a middle school student.

A single arbitrary choice of difficulty is a meaningless design choice. It's self limiting and counter productive. One person's brutal difficulty is another person's easy game. What matters is how the game handles difficulty and how it penalises the player in terms of failure. IN this case, the player is forced into the most tedious mind numbing boring repetition for no reason.

Let me clue you in on something. Practically ALL games have repetition. The only games that don't are ones like Bioshock and Prince of Persia (2008), games that I don't really care for, but don't call people stupid for enjoying. When you die or fail in the vast majority of games, you return to your last checkpoint, and have to repeat the process until you reach the next checkpoint. Dark Souls is no different. The checkpoints are just not as frequent. Apart from the element of losing of souls upon death, Dark Souls' progression system is exactly like that of Metroid, one of the most beloved franchises in all of gaming. When you die, you return to your last save station with the enemies respawned. The horror! In fact, you lost less progress upon death in Dark Souls! You keep any items or upgrades you've acquired, certain enemies will not respawn, and there are frequent shortcuts to hasten your journey. Those of us who are enjoying Dark Souls like this approach. You are free to disagree and play something that is more to your liking.

People that enjoy this need their heads tested.

The only person here who needs his head tested is the one with the delusion of grandeur that he is the one true authority on what people should enjoy in a subjective entertainment medium. Where does this delusion come from, may I ask? Do the Potato People whisper in your ear that you are their all-knowing king and that you should slip into a red and white checkered gingham dress and army boots?

Telling me that i'm 'whining' because you are too stupid to understand what i've written, in clear fucking english (a language you yanks need to learn) is taking the piss. Don't sit their and hide your insults behind niceties and pretend you have the moral high ground. You don't.

Oh, you don't want niceties? Very well, I'll be direct: Go f-, er, wait a minute. Oh yeah, that's right. The only reason I've shown any restraint in my use of colorful language and insults thus far is that this is a forum with Miss Manners rules, where excessive insults are not looked looked upon kindly. Were this not the case, I would be more than happy to fulfill your request for a good verbal thrashing.

The "moral high ground" has nothing to do with anything. You are being challenged because of your flawed arguments and your trollish ad hominems and mud-slinging. From the beginning you have been trying to prove your case by fallaciously attacking the character of others, accusing them of only enjoying Dark Souls to look macho. Nearly all of your criticisms of Dark Souls have been things that most of us find to be false, or things that don't particularly bother us. Tastes in gaming are subjective. If we say we like games with bland color pallets, gimmicky motion controls and massive screen-tearing, there is nothing you can say to invalidate that. With the roll you're on, why not tell a bunch of movie fanatics that they're fucking morons for preferring subtitles to dubs on their foreign films? Or tell a pet owner that he's an imbecile because he prefers dogs to cats?

And while you are criticizing us "yanks" over our grasp of the English language, please take not that "I" and "English" are both capitalized, you semi-literate numskull.

Most games reward your efforts more than Dark Souls. The only reward this game gives you is a slight change in scenery.

False (not to mention you can say the same thing about Uncharted, or any number of other games). As you progress in Dark Souls you encounter new enemies and bosses, and gain access to new upgrades, weapons and abilities. Few games do more than this.

THere is no depth to this experience, the layout of the 'open world', as was touted, is linear and the lack of tools for the player is a joke.

The developers promised a more open-ended game world, which they delivered on. They never pretended that their game would be Elder Scrolls or GTA. There is an enormous array of tools at the disposal to the player that expands as you progress. Your failure to utilize them is not the game's fault. The game rewards experimenting with these tools to uncover each enemy's Achilles heel, and adapting to new challenges.

I could punch myself in the face fifteen times and feel a sense of reward, less pain in my jaw for starters, just because I stopped punching myself in the face. This notion of reward is disingenuous at best. Sure you might punch the air having beatn THE GREAT MONSTER OF DOOM but if you've spent ten hours previously trying to do so then it's not much of a victory is it.
The fact this game is so badly made is just icing on the cake.

Amazing! I've never encountered a telepath before, never mind one who can sense people's enjoyment or lack thereof in a video game from miles and miles away! You sir, have a gift! /sarcasm

I look forward to you once again ignoring all counterarguments and repeating your mindless rhetoric. It's an amusing spectacle. Like a clown show.

 

[Zeh Don]

I'm not facing the Hydra. I have to admit; I stood for a moment and was like 'I have to kill this? Like, straight up? No tricks?'
Haven't had a game present that kind of situation to me for a long, long time.

It's expertly designed, well paced, and thoroughly rewarding. I've noticed that most people who don't like the game are the ones failing the most. I guess it's not nice to have a game remind you that you suck every time you grab the controller. Takes some getting used to.
Some people are encouraged to succeed by defeat; others walk away and return to the games that require nothing to be successful. It's not bad or wrong, but it's why you don't like the game: you're not good at it without effort, and most gamers today don't put effort into something unless they're immediately made to believe they're good at the game - even if they're really not.

 

[Dr.Panties]

Honestly, get a fucking life.

Oh, yes. Right there. That's just perfect. So delicious.

 

[AlternatePFG]

The Gaping Dragon was so disappointingly easy, he does pretty much the same thing over and over again throughout the fight. Epic music though, I'll give it that. I managed to cut off his tail and get the axe, but the axe is way too heavy for me right now.

Edit: I've found it very easy to get souls by helping people as a white phantom, even though it takes awhile for it to activate for me.

 

[Corporal Yakob]

Bloody hell I want this game but have no money! >:I

But whats all this hummanity and zombiefied status I've read about in this thread?

Humanity affects item drop rate, can be used to kindle fires (Increases your flask capacity), or to revive yourself. Similar to in DeS if you die, you lose the ability to summon people into your game. I believe it has an effect on NPC dialogue as well. But when you're undead, you look like a zombie basically.

I just got the game today and despite what people may infer from what I was yelling at it, I am enjoying the game so far (despite its pretty piss-poor backstory, I hope more is revealed as I progress). So is there any benefit to being undead?

 

[Corporal Yakob]

Also: at the Undead burg at a bit where I have the choice of running across some battlements and being stomped flat by a goat demon or running downstairs and being bi-sected by a demon knight-am I on the right path or is there somewhere slightly easier I should have gone to?

 

[AlternatePFG]

Also: at the Undead burg at a bit where I have the choice of running across some battlements and being stomped flat by a goat demon or running downstairs and being bi-sected by a demon knight-am I on the right path or is there somewhere slightly easier I should have gone to?

Kill the Taurus Demon by climbing the tower and kill the skeletons that shoot at you as walk outside, before the boss appears. Trigger the boss fight, climb that ladder and do a falling attack on the demon. Rinse and repeat till he's dead.

The Demon Knight is something you want to fight later, and even then he's only defending a rare item, not the next area to go to.

 

[Corporal Yakob]

Also: at the Undead burg at a bit where I have the choice of running across some battlements and being stomped flat by a goat demon or running downstairs and being bi-sected by a demon knight-am I on the right path or is there somewhere slightly easier I should have gone to?

Kill the Taurus Demon by climbing the tower and kill the skeletons that shoot at you as walk outside, before the boss appears. Trigger the boss fight, climb that ladder and do a falling attack on the demon. Rinse and repeat till he's dead.

The Demon Knight is something you want to fight later, and even then he's only defending a rare item, not the next area to go to.

Is the way up the tower on the battlements, outside that misty door? Because I ran up several floors and the stair-case to the next one was broken causing me to go outside, flashback to that Dragon I saw, panic and run forwards into the goat-demon.

Is the item worth the fight? I nearly beat him with firebombs and gold resin enhanced swordsmanship. Nearly >_>

Oh and is it possible to lower the visor on a knightly helm so it hides your face?

 

[Runding]

Here are my thoughts after 16 hours of play so far.

I can't recall a game in recent memory where I have felt such a range of emotions while playing. At times I'm dreading the unknown around the next corner. At other times I feel like a bad ass while swatting down waves of enemies after I've mastered certain sections. I also can't describe the euphoric feeling you get from taking down a boss that felt borderline impossible and acquiring cool loot.

With that being said, I can't help but scratch my head in regards to some of the development decisions. At times I truly feel that the devs went overboard with this so called high "difficulty".

A perfect example of this is the placement of game breaking enemies that can "curse", without any nearby access to any of the cures to remove the negative status effects. In case someone doesn't know, the curse halves your health every time you are affected by the attack which can also stack. So if you get cursed once your health goes to 1/2 health, then 1/4 and 1/8 respectively. The game is difficult enough without having to deal with this problem, and having to back track hours to get back to the beginning of the game to find the "cure" is so difficult that many players are forced to restart the game as most enemies can simply 1 shot you with the reduced health.

Before anyone points out that it's easy to avoid being cursed, that's not the point. As many people have already pointed out, the enemy AI is far from perfect, and the enemies often see you across the map and end up in areas that are impossible to avoid- such as curse spewing Basilisks clumping up under the ladders in the Great Hollow.

In the game's defense, there are only a few sections in the game where you have to worry about this problem. However, in a game that's predicated on "trial and error", why wouldn't the devs put a cure near these areas? Why is the merchant literally hours away in unreachable areas?

In my opinion this game could have been a true masterpiece. I can honestly say that DS is one of the "better" games that I have played this year. However, with that being said, there are too many instances where I feel the game is too frustrating for it's own good.

There are so many things the game does right, but these types of design flaws ruin the experience. There is nothing wrong with the "trial-and-error" type design of the game where death awaits around every corner until you learn to deal with each section, however having basically permanent status affects that can't be removed takes things too far.

You actually got cursed, wow, you are pretty bad, as soon as I saw the meter building as I entered the smoke I backed off. Status haven't been a terrible problem for me. The toxic dart guys got me once, but that has been it, and they don't re-spawn once you kill them apparently. I think status's are a good idea, it adds more urgency then just blocking attacks, now you need to make sure you attack eventually or gain some distance or else you will end up with an annoying status.

I'll be the first to admit that I suck at this game. As AlternatePFG pointed out, I didn't understand the consequences of the curse ailment until it was too late as I had some how managed to avoid the Basilisks all together while travelling through the Depths.

I have literally died hundreds of times to reach the Great Hollow but none of the deaths ever felt "cheap". However, as I'm barely scraping by, going back through Blightown with half the health has proven to be a very difficult situation.

Don't get me wrong, I've really enjoyed the game and plan on pushing ahead. I don't mind the countless deaths while learning from my mistakes, but I feel completely stuck and helpless at this point in the game.

In the end I'm angry at the development decisions because I've enjoyed the game so much.

 

[AlternatePFG]

Is the way up the tower on the battlements, outside that misty door? Because I ran up several floors and the stair-case to the next one was broken causing me to go outside, flashback to that Dragon I saw, panic and run forwards into the goat-demon.

Is the item worth the fight? I nearly beat him with firebombs and gold resin enhanced swordsmanship. Nearly >_>

Oh and is it possible to lower the visor on a knightly helm so it hides your face?

Yeah, it's outside that door.

The item is a ring, I personally don't think it's that useful to be worth fighting him for, but it's really your decision.

Edit: You can suicide charge him, and try to get past and get the ring without killing him any way.

I don't believe you can close the visor on your knightly helm. I dunno, I didn't pick knight, I picked warrior.

 

[For.I.Am.Mad]

Again, I need to thank the people of redbox for saving me 58 greenbacks.

 

[QueenOliver]

I have a gift; it's my tolerance for the pathetic internet sarcasm that pervades this site. Honestly, get a fucking life.

Ta da! And he does it again! Addresses none of the counterpoints and responds with only insults! What a display ladies and gentlemen!