Dark Souls Lore

[Alma Mare]

Why do you think the Daugther of Chaos that attacks you at the Bed of Chaos' door is hollow? As for the Pigmy think, I agree it's fuzzy as fuck, but the Pigmy --> Dark Soul --> Humanity in humans link seems pretty solid. The hows and whens and whys, though...

Because the pattern all hollows follow is to attack you without saying a word, even as they die. The Crestfallen Warrior, Oscar of Astora, Laurentius, Rhea of Thorolund, her guards, even Gwyn all follow this pattern. The pyromancer who attacks you before the Bed of Chaos is the same.

I also think the Pygmy had the Dark Soul (it follows from life - death, light - dark as mentioned in the intro, Dark is the only Lord Soul missing) but I don't necessarily think humans are his progeny. There's a theory that he offered his soul to all of humanity in the way that Gwyn gave parts of his - shattered it and spread it and the pieces of it that remained are called humanity. Perhaps it also affected the Daughters of Izalith as well as all proto-humans at the time?

Yeah, I think there's a bit of confusion between the "hollowing" and simply going insane because they act the same, wether they were formerly gods or simply undeads. After all Gwin and the Crestfallen Warrior act exactly the same (interestingly enough, Solaire doesn't act like that).

 

[Dandark]

So there's basically 3 types of giants who are all giants but different sizes?
1. Small, man sized "giants" like the Witches of Izalith and Havel?
2. Medium giants but bigger than humans like Artorias, Ornstein and Gwyn?
3. Big giants like Smogh and the giant Blacksmith?

We are not sure.
I usually like to think of them as just coming in different shapes and sizes like humans. You have the average size for humans but you also have people who are taller, shorter, bigger, smaller and then you also have people who are very different in size like very small midgets or very tall people.

The lords especially have likely evolved more than other giants due to having lord souls, the giant blacksmith and other giants in Sens fortress are still the same race as Gwyn and all the knights.
All that really matters is that they are another race which you can call whatever you want giants, gods, demi-gods, big dudes, haxors that are a separate race from humanity. In Dark souls humans are defined by having humanity(you could also say they are defined by having a piece of the dark soul inside them) which the other humanoid race does not.

snipremained are called humanity. Perhaps it also affected the Daughters of Izalith as well as all proto-humans at the time?

Yeah, I think there's a bit of confusion between the "hollowing" and simply going insane because they act the same, wether they were formerly gods or simply undeads. After all Gwin and the Crestfallen Warrior act exactly the same (interestingly enough, Solaire doesn't act like that).

I think Solaire didn't hollow but went insane. As he was approaching the demon ruins and lost Izalith he was already really depressed that he couldn't find his sun and was begenning to think he was on a fools errand and the laughing stock of everyone he knew. When the sunlight maggot managed to attach itself to his head and start messing with him, it drove him completely insane.

Since he was driven insane my that rather than fully going insane himself is likely why he acts different than others.

 

[briankoontz]

And the complete ambiguity of good vs evil (Ie; who is good and who is evil) leaves everything up to interpretation...

Oh no, it's not that at all. In a sufficiently dead world (such as Dark Souls) it's impossible to be either good or evil.

Dark Souls is a world without life or meaning. Without life or meaning, there's no such thing as good or evil.

Good and evil require a world where such things have meaning. There's no "good and evil" on the surface of Jupiter, for example, because there's no context for it.

There's no possibility for the protagonist of Dark Souls to do either good or evil because the world is so dead that choices don't matter.

The creatures within Dark Souls understand that their choices no longer matter, but they have no conception of how to exist in this new world - the entire history of culture, of their own identity, of their own evolution, is with respect to a living world, not a dead one.

The primary tragedy of Dark Souls is not death, which is always a relief in such a world. The primary tragedy is that creatures who live to dominate and conquer, the gods and other powerful beings in the world, no longer have any reason to dominate others and are unable to change their nature to exist within the new world, a proper change in which could bring life back to the world.

The Dark Souls mythology is based on centuries of religious and economic warfare in Europe, with slaughter in the name of God or to attain certain rights or land. What happens to these kinds of people when there is nothing left to slaughter each other for? The old thought was - peace would happen. But that requires there to be something left to *not* slaughter each other for.

In the Dark Souls world, there's nothing left. So both war and peace become irrelevant, and even the main quest of the protagonist which drives the gameplay is a terrible conceit, with gamers striving to "beat the game" which has no narrative value within the game.

Just as there's no "good and evil" in Dark Souls, there's also no distinction in value between lies and truth. The primordial serpents are criticized for being "liars" but what does it matter if they told the truth instead, at least within the game world? It matters to the player because it helps them understand the world, but it shouldn't truly matter to the protagonist because he knows his quest, just like the quest of every other character in the game, is a conceit since it won't bring life back to the world, which is the only thing that matters.

Solaire is the game's only true believer. He believes that the gods create life and can do so again, if given enough power. The game clearly does not agree with him, so he's doomed to fail in his quest, certainly not for lack of effort.

The characters in the game have a very dark view of humanity. It ranges from "are you nothing but dark souls?" to a certainty that an age of humanity would be an "Age of Dark", implying that only gods can grant light, life, and meaning.

This terrible view of humans is what drives the world and it's desperate attempts to prolong the status quo. Noone in the game, from undead to demon to god, thinks well of humans.

The "age of humanity" spoken of in the game is not accurate - it would be an age dominated by the Furtive Pygmy who views humans as "his creatures". Only if all gods are deposed, including him, could an actual age of humanity commence.

 

[Qvar]

Let's see what can I do with the pieces of lore and epileptic trees theories I've been gathering.

When did the undead apocalypse start? Was it a few years ago or was it like a thousand years in the past? Does the undead apocalypse only affect Lordran or does it affect the other cultures eg. Balder, Vinheim etc.?

It's unclear if it was before Gwyn departed to link the fire, or after he did it. In any case, it's certain that both the curse and the departure are linked to the progressive fading of the flame.

It's stablished that the curse affects all the world, since we see a lot of people coming to Lordran being undead already, and from many different parts of the world. In fact, the undead asylum isn't inside Lordran. It's where the NON-Lordran undead go. IIRC there's no single npc in DS that isn't undead (unless it's a god, etc). This could mean that there haven't ever been real humans at Lordran, or that the curse is stronger the closer you get to Lordran.

Did the human nations rise after the age of Fire or were they present in the age of Dark? Do they all swear fealty to Anor Londo/Lordran and pay tribute or was Anor Londo/Lordran just a separate political entity?

Before the age of fire there were only dragons. Humanity was just a bunch of troglodytes. The age of fire hasn't ended yet, but is about to end very soon... Unless somebody stops it.
I think that Lordran is like mount Olympus in the greek mythos. A geographical territory, but also a place you can't reach and doesn't get involved in mortal matters as a regular nation would do.

Gwyn and his Silver./Black knights went hollow didn't they? So were they human or are they not human and some other humanoid entity instead? Were the Witches of Izalith human or were they also more than human but still humanoid?

They weren't human. There were different types of beings, along with the dragons. Humanity descends from the Pygmy (some say he later transformed into Manus when humanity started to decay with the curse, thus creating the Abyss), which wasn't the same race as the other being, albeit they all look similar.
Some theories to which I give credit say that, in fact, at the begining all humanity was Hollow. It was the Pygmy's Dark Soul which, when shattered in those little black frames, gave that bunch of hollows what later was taken for granted: Humanity.

As for the Black Knights and Gwyn: Gwyn's soul was consumed to fuel the Kiln f the first flame and restart the age of fire once. In that event, his inner self was burnt and he became "the lord of cinder". A shadow of his former self. An effect similar to hollowing, but not the same process. According to the lore, the silver knights Gwyn brought were "burnt" when he restarted the age of fire, thus becoming the black knights.

Who were the "good" side in the war against the Everlasting Dragons? Cos the Lords did help the rise of humanity but Seath and Nito seemed like pretty evil things to me so I'm not sure if the Dragons are the good side or not...

Nobody. Everybody fougth for themselves. Nito (the Soul of Death), Gwyn (Soul of Fire) and the Witch of Izalith (Soul of Life/Chaos) tried and took power from the dragons, killing them in the process, with Seath's help (which hadn't a lord soul at that point, until later Gwyn split his' between him and the 4 kings before departing for the Kiln of the first flame). The humanity, and the Pygmy, was barely surviving the conflict. But he found the dark soul, and that gave humanity strength. It began to grow in numbers, rapidly outnumbering the gods.

Some say that the gods began to fear humanity, and that's why they (alledgely), specifically Nito, created the curse: As a mean to force humans to burn their preciated humanity in the fires. According to this theory, Kathee would be collecting humanity as a mean to sabotage the gods plans of destroying it. Others say that the age of fire was actually ending, and that's how the curse apeared: A diminishing fire means less humanity, less humanity means people going hollow.

As you must have noticed, the humanities soul is the DARK soul. There's inherent evil in all the huamnity soul. You are indeed forced to do terrible things thougout the game, in the name of something we don't even know what it is. The dark side of the human soulsis a recurring theme during all the game, and the deeper you go into the lore, the more the humans seem the real monsters. Remember when Priscilla says that you've come to disturb the peace of her land? She wasn't that wrong.

 

[Qvar]

The humans worshipped the Lords (Giants empowered by the Lord Souls mentioned in the intro) as Gods. The Gods figured out that the Flame could be fed by Humanity (aka fragments of the Dark Soul aka the Lord Sould the Pigmy hoarded to himself before being promptly forgotten).

Ah, nice point. I'd never thought about the "gods" being the same as the giants.

So after their attempts to prevent the end of the flame failed (Witch Queen failure and Gwin's sacrifice merely being a bid for time) the Gods started shepperding the humans into the bonfire. It's not stated where the DarkSign came from, but it's pretty likely Nito. It prevents humans into dying (and death is his Domain) and instead tricks them into feeding humanity to the bonfires (and thus the First Flame, since they are meant to be linked like a network). The ability to do so (rite of Kindling) is known to have come from Nito, and the Paladins of the Way of White both search for that rite and protect Nito (like Paladin Leeroy). So Nito is not so much an evil-deathlord-personified but a Lord like the others who tries to protect the Age of Fire with the powers within his domain

WELL now you'll ahve to excuse me, but you can't take a (while consistent) theory as something already stablished. There are as many clues pointing in that direction as there are pointing in that, sure, NIto created the rite of kindling because it kindles the fires, and that's all he wanted. It all boils down to "Does humanity get permanently destroyed when it's burnt?", and no amount of youtube videos stating that will change that nobody has a solid idea about it.

If I had to choose, I would say no, it doesn't. Unlike pretty much any other item in the game, we get infinite supplies of humanity, most likely meaning that as soon as humanity is burnt or lost somewhere, it flows toward new containers.

In the Dark Souls world, there's nothing left. So both war and peace become irrelevant, and even the main quest of the protagonist which drives the gameplay is a terrible conceit, with gamers striving to "beat the game" which has no narrative value within the game.

I disagree. The fight aginst becoming hollow is the fight for a pourpose. Once you lose pourpose, you give away hope for change, for an objective, and then you "die". Like it happened to Oscar, the elite knight that frees you at the start of the game.

Thus, the objective of the main character is exactly the same as the player. To fullfill the profecy, whatever it takes doing so. To keep going forward is way more important for our character than the why is he doing it. That doesn't matter, it will be decided on the way there.

Just as there's no "good and evil" in Dark Souls, there's also no distinction in value between lies and truth. The primordial serpents are criticized for being "liars" but what does it matter if they told the truth instead, at least within the game world? It matters to the player because it helps them understand the world, but it shouldn't truly matter to the protagonist because he knows his quest, just like the quest of every other character in the game, is a conceit since it won't bring life back to the world, which is the only thing that matters.

You don't know that it won't bring life back to the world. In fact, Frampt and Gwyndolin does make you belive that it will, when you succed Gwyn as Da Boss. If you belive them, then it's a quest to bring life back to the world. But if they lied and you discover them, then it's a quest to bring down those obstructionists and let the Age of Dark begin. It ALL depends on them liying to you or not about the results of succeeding Gwyn.

Solaire is the game's only true believer. He believes that the gods create life and can do so again, if given enough power. The game clearly does not agree with him, so he's doomed to fail in his quest, certainly not for lack of effort.

Doomed? Assuming that you link the fire, the age of fire is restarted. It may not be perfect, but it lasted for thousands of years. And now you have the Soul of Fire, the Soul of Life, the Soul of Death and part of the Dark Soul to do so. According to the doom-sayers if you link the fire you get annihilated fueling the flame, which is something apparently everybody gives for granted because Totally-legit-Kathee told you so. Oh yeah let's give credit to the snake that kills people for humanity and probably was responsible for destroying Oolacile (and totally responsible for destroying New Londo).

Don't say that it doesn't matter if Kathee is lying based specifically in that what he said is the truth. That is, that the others want you to sacrifice yourself for nothing, and thus there's no hope. That's a fallacy.

 

[Qvar]

The pyromancer who attacks you before the Bed of Chaos is the same.

Yes, but Quelaana, Quelaag and the Fair Lady were the only daugthers to escape the conflagration that created the Bed of Chaos. That pyromancer is no mere hollow, she's a demon with human size. No demon tells you a word in this game either, do they?

I also think the Pygmy had the Dark Soul (it follows from life - death, light - dark as mentioned in the intro, Dark is the only Lord Soul missing) but I don't necessarily think humans are his progeny. There's a theory that he offered his soul to all of humanity in the way that Gwyn gave parts of his - shattered it and spread it and the pieces of it that remained are called humanity. Perhaps it also affected the Daughters of Izalith as well as all proto-humans at the time?

It could be, yet then Quelaana wouldn't call you a "mere human". She would be human too. And she's the same size as the other daugthers we see (including the dead one next to Ceaseless Discharge). Oh btw: They not only had the size of humans, they were highly beautiful for human standards, judging by Quelaag and the white witch (aside from... the spider body etc).

Cool answers and debate, thanks

What is he furtive pigmy exactly? I know it's in the intro cinematic but is it in game at any point?

In the DLC, it's hinted that he made himself some kind of... leader of his people. Maybe he started sharing his dark soul with a group of other small giants, creating a separated race for himself. Come to think: He was called the pygmy. Pigmean, for whom? Obviously, for giants. He evolved from being a pigmean in a race of giants, to creating his own race.

Also, the big bad of the DLC is a sort of... Darkness monkey. The ancestor of humanity. And some NPC tells you that rumors say that, when the flame and humanity started to fade, whatever remained of the pygmy also crashed down. I guess he went hollow, in a sense. Then, Manus the father of the Abyss was created. In a way, the Abyss would be the pygmy's own hollowed inside world, with the remainings of his humanity materializing in large shards of dark soul.

I don't think Ornstein is a giant, though Smough might be. I think the only real giants are the ones in Anor Londo, the ones atop Sen's Fortress, and the skeletons int the tomb of the giants.

The problem is defining "giant". If you look at the skeletons at Tomb of giants, those aren't "Anor Londo blacksmith" size of giant. At the DS world, there are different races. Most of them bigger than humanity. Most of them, looking quite similar to humanity. That's all we need to know.

By the way, Smough got his size from feeding on the corpses of those he executed. There's a theory around saying that, since a dead body would always resurrect... What if it's consumed? According to that (and to Smoughs own belief), it would increase the power of the "gourmet". Or his size, like in the case of Smough and the butchers. Ofc chances are that he was already big to begin with.