Dark Souls - More like Dark Trolls

[niknar266]

Enemies being able to strike through walls. It's not so noticeable on small enemies but when there's big enemies like a titanite demon for example a it swings it's weapon through a wall and hits me rather than recoiling like I do, I call bulls**t every time.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

You see it a lot because its always true. The thing about dark souls is that it is designed to never be cheap. It always gives you fair warning for every trap it is about to pull if you pay attention and the enemies all telegraph their moves from three miles away.

I'm sorry, but that's wishful thinking. Tell me, how did I see "telegraphed from three miles away" that wheel skeletons were going to defy the conservation of momentum and instead of bouncing off my shield, kill me.

Sure, I could dodge them, but I didn't see "telegraphed from three miles away" that blocking them would just get me killed if I decided to do that instead. What was there to "telegraph me from three miles away" that dodging them is the only reliable way to counter them, and blocking wasn't going to work? After all, I could reasonably go "Hmmm, they're rollin' against me, I put up my shield, laws of physics dictate that they bounce off it." Tell me where it was telegraphed that the laws of physics were going to get breached there.

Bone Wheels can be blocked, just like Giant Skeleton Dogs can be blocked. Get a halfway decent shield and pump more than 20 Endurance and they're entirely blockable. Either hope to get lucky and find a Black Knight Shield or alternatively upgrade a Spider Shield. Hell, I block them with Heater Shields. I'm sorry, but they aren't quite as difficult and OP as you're painting them.

 

[Headdrivehardscrew]

Which New Game Plus are you talking about? The first one?

Yeah, it takes some getting accustomed to. If you just zipped through the game the first time around, it will feel - and quite probably be - much harder. If you took your time to get good at handling (and upgrading) your favourite weapon and gear, memorizing distances and maybe even perfect the art of parry-riposte, it will be much, much easier.

The darkness is not that impenetrable. There are at least three proper solutions to that one problem, and then there's always fatalism. Just map the area by running in one direction. Resort to age-old maze/labyrinth/dungeon basics. Hug the wall. That's the thing that blocks you rather than inviting you to fall to your death. The first time around, everything is lethal and brutal and not quite fair. Once you've seen it all, it's all about memorizing... well, everything. That's why ploughing through ranks of enemies, dropping them all without getting so much as sneezed upon so very, very rewarding.

Besides, since dying is basically free and your status as the guy with the halo Darksign gives you infinite lives for as long as you don't hurl yourself out of the window, you're really just invited to figure things out. If one approach does not work, try another. If nothing works, start right back at the beginning again. Maybe there was something you missed. I think it's absolutely alright to start out dying a lot. As you progress through the game, though, perfection is pretty much your bestest friend.

in hundreds of hours of playthroughs, walkthroughs, strollthroughs and free walkabouts, I've only killed one NPC so far. Because, when it happened, it was an absolute accident. The reaction I got was so freaking disturbing it put me well off trying that again... ever. It's not nice going for a little shopping of basic resources and tools of the (killing) trade with a smile on your face only to end up getting cursed to bits in glorious surround sound, and then finding your friendly deadface lying on the floor, being gnawed on by rats. Shop's closed. Come back next life. That's bound to make one feel bad, methinks.

Yeah, even though Dark Souls somehow ended up being favoured by me, it has to be said that Demon's Souls is significantly more harsh... and it's got way more of that Ctulhu zinging factor, really making you wish you'd be a better, calmer, more intelligent and more patient person. If Dark Souls put you in your place in a manner you feel is demeaning, Demon's Souls is bound to see you getting institutionalized. I know I couldn't believe some of the more or less elegant solutions to problems that absolutely destroyed me, because I plain didn't get it or was unable to think outside the box when it really mattered. After Demon's Souls, Dark Souls felt like a dumbed down, merry-go-depressed sequel to Tomb Raider.

Oh, I just caught myself exaggerating a bit there. Just a bit, though.

 

[Anathrax]

I'm really not sure why everyone has an issue with Ornstein and Smough. It was an intense fight and all but I finished it in my 3rd or so try. No phantoms summoned, dex/str/end pure. Maybe I just got lucky.

 

[Broderick]

I'm really not sure why everyone has an issue with Ornstein and Smough. It was an intense fight and all but I finished it in my 3rd or so try. No phantoms summoned, dex/str/end pure. Maybe I just got lucky.

I think it might be a combination of not knowing the nuances of the game as a new player, and the stress of having two enemies capable of 2-3 shotting you coming at you at once. It took me about 10 times or so I think, but then again I went in blind and didn't upgrade enough stuff. Little things like upgrading weapons and weapon buffs make a huge difference for many boss fights. Heck, you can win a fight with the 4 kings at level one with just the bandits knife and charcoal pine resin.

 

[NeutralDrow]

* Enemy projectiles can CURVE in mid-air to home in on you

Even though you are using the SAME weapon as they are, their version of the spell/arrow has homing ability to correct their trajectory in mid-air and hit you. This becomes mostly evident against the Silver Arrow Knight c*cksuckers at Anor Londo spamming you with the Dragon Bow - the most powerful bow in the game. Not to even mention the Bloathead Scorcerers in Oocile that can deal insane ammounts of damage with their projectile spell. Oh, and fuck the crystal archers in Dukes Archive too

No they dont. Ive gone as far as new game+8 and Ive yet to see projectiles curve while in midair.

I have. I can't speak for the other things (my framerate wasn't good enough for me to tell whether melee attacks would track me, and I tended to cheese the catacomb dogs and Oscar & Hammerstein at range), but the curving arrows were something I also noticed which pissed me off. For me, it was specifically the archers in the Duke's Archives, their arrows will track you like a sorcerer's soul arrows, so I tended to get hit if I dodged early or just tried to sidestep.

I kind of assumed it was because their arrows are so slow that they'd never hit me otherwise, but it was still annoying.

I'm really not sure why everyone has an issue with Ornstein and Smough. It was an intense fight and all but I finished it in my 3rd or so try. No phantoms summoned, dex/str/end pure. Maybe I just got lucky.

I can see why other people might have had a problem that I didn't. I won on my second try, because I just took the tactic of peppering them with arrows. And I would have won on my first try if I hadn't dodged backwards into a column and taken a Super Smuff Lightning Hammer to the noggin.

 

[Souplex]

If you're getting one-shotted by anything you're probably playing wrong.
Get some heavy armor, get a good shield, get a spear.
That is how you play properly.
Dodging is for chumps.

 

[Anathrax]

If you're getting one-shotted by anything you're probably playing wrong.
Get some heavy armor, get a good shield, get a spear.
That is how you play properly.
Dodging is for chumps.

YOU'RE A CHUMP.
It's different playstyle, some like sitting around blocking with the shield and others like to dodge dragons with backflips. I chose the latter.

 

[Boris Goodenough]

I'm really not sure why everyone has an issue with Ornstein and Smough. It was an intense fight and all but I finished it in my 3rd or so try. No phantoms summoned, dex/str/end pure. Maybe I just got lucky.

O&S is "luck" dependent on the moves they do and in which order, I killed them in first go when I got to them with a +15 lightning claymore (yes yes I know pre-1.05 weapon). Even skilled players can fail against them if they are unlucky.
It took much longer on NG+, 4 tries or so, where I somehow managed to kill Knight Artorius in first go which is not something I saw myself doing.

 

[Vegosiux]

Bone Wheels can be blocked, just like Giant Skeleton Dogs can be blocked. Get a halfway decent shield and pump more than 20 Endurance and they're entirely blockable. Either hope to get lucky and find a Black Knight Shield or alternatively upgrade a Spider Shield. Hell, I block them with Heater Shields. I'm sorry, but they aren't quite as difficult and OP as you're painting them.

I didn't say they were difficult, I said they were cheap. And indeed, once I went "Well fuck it, I'll just dodge these things" they were pretty much dead-bones. But, as I said, I didn't see "from three miles away" that dodging is the more reliable course of action, so this "Oh but DS is fair" is just hogwash. And it doesn't have anything to do with difficulty in the first place, the game in general isn't exactly "difficult" once you get past the clunky controls (M&K, and don't tell me to "just play with a controller" because if I wanted to play with a controller, I'd get a console) and once you know what you're doing, it's not really "difficult".

 

[Joshimodo]

That is what I thought. I managed to defeat Ornstein/Smough Naked with Fists. They aren't that difficult of bosses once you learn their moves and avoid them. Hell, the first time I fought the Capra Demon, I got my ass handed to me. Today, I defeated him on my first try. Surprisingly I also died three times on the Gaping Dragon when every other time I managed to defeat the fucker on my first tries per game as well.

This is what it's all about, and why so many crybabies whine on about Dark Souls.

Progression. Not just numerical progression; PERSONAL progression. You can be running around in full Giants armour with a +5 Chaos weapon, but if YOU haven't gotten better you will still be minced by bosses and most enemies.

It encourages learning, thinking ahead and caution, rather than the apparent norm in RPGs these days to just waltz through unhindered for the entire journey. That's why I liked The Witcher 2 as well - It didn't dick around from the start, and I was forced to improve myself and think to even get out of the tutorial, which was great. The result? A feeling of self-improvement, and a more satisfying gameplay structure.

Dark Souls pulls the same sort of thing, with most fights being new experiences in some way and each area bringing new obstacles for YOU to overcome.

Plus, the numerical progression is pretty good too. The GT video at the start of this thread posits that those Skeletons at the graveyard are particularly troll-y. No, that's bull, and here's why:

The game world in Souls is harsh and unforgiving. You can't just wander into an area and succeed. It's designed to look easy and appealing as a path only for you to find out you can't handle it as you are. That may well be your first proper experience of the world - You are not a god. You are not free to wander aimlessly and be safe. There are dangers everywhere, and while this is obviously a path you will take, you are not ready. It doesn't pop up in some screen, some omnipotent NPC doesn't psychically message you, and no invisible wall pops up. It teaches you by handing your ass to you, which makes the drive to explore even stronger.

Sadly, the paradigm shift in gaming in recent years seems to have eroded that sense of future achievement and challenge away, so people cry out that "Oooh, skeleton path is trolling! Waaaah it was my first experience in DS, I'm not playing anymore! :'(" instead of thinking "I'm going to come back here later and cut you skinny bastards up". When you return to it later in the game with your earned skills and knowledge and shiny new gear, you feel a genuine sense of achievement and satisfaction when slaying them.

I still feel giddy when I fight through Blighttown, Crystal Palace or bosses like Ornstein/Smough with no trouble because I improved.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

I'm sorry, but that's wishful thinking. Tell me, how did I see "telegraphed from three miles away" that wheel skeletons were going to defy the conservation of momentum and instead of bouncing off my shield, kill me.

Sure, I could dodge them, but I didn't see "telegraphed from three miles away" that blocking them would just get me killed if I decided to do that instead. What was there to "telegraph me from three miles away" that dodging them is the only reliable way to counter them, and blocking wasn't going to work? After all, I could reasonably go "Hmmm, they're rollin' against me, I put up my shield, laws of physics dictate that they bounce off it." Tell me where it was telegraphed that the laws of physics were going to get breached there.

Well actually as long as your shield isnt complete shit you can block the wheel skeletons just fine.

I dont know why the hell you would expect the laws of physics to always apply in Dark Souls when you are constantly breaking it throughout the game.

The problem I found with the Wheel Skeletons was that they left my stamina really drained to actually attack, and there were usually a few of them on my ass at once.

 

[CyberAkuma]

Sorry to call you on your complete fucking bullshit but there is not a single boss in the entire game that can one shot you. Boss damage scales based on your max health so that can never happen.
You complaints mostly sound like you suck at dodging.

* Bed of Chaos is pretty much a death sentence once you get hit

* Serveral bosses can stun-lock on you every hit making the first hit pretty much an insta kill
This happened to me with Artorias, Bed of Chaos, Capra Demon etc.

* Both butt-slams on Ornstein and Smogh in enhanced formed are insta-kill

* Ceaseless Discharge tentacle attacks can instakill you. And on top of that he can breathe fire through walls so the moment you think you have time enough to re-heal, BAM! - you are dead.

* Kalameets flames are all insta kill if they stun lock you and his AoE can hit you serveral times killing you instantly if you are under him
Also, if you are affected by his de-buff spell, all his moves are insta-kill

* One of Manus spells is pretty much instakill unless you use the Silver Amulet.

I could go on and on but my point is very clear - they are serveral bosses as well as enemies that have insta-kill moves.
I am not making this up.

I experienced all these on New Game+ when I'm at level 122 with full heavy armor AND using the ring of steel and protection.

Oh - regarding the Skeleton Dogs.
On the Dark Souls wiki [http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Tomb+of+Giants] this is listed:

The main danger of these enemies lies in their forward flurry attack that has significant range and seems to ignore all armour other than shield (need confirmation, but regardless the damage is insane). It is sometimes possible to block all the damage from this attack (eating most of your stamina) by facing at the right angle with your shield up, but it seems that the attack can sometimes reach around the shield, dealing very heavy damage.

Even with heavy armor and the ring of Steel Protection their charge flurry move is instant death if it connects.
I have on many occations tried to block their attacks and the result is always the same, the attack is so powerful that it drains my stamina instantly, shield is dropped and I take the one-hit-kill instantly resulting in death. Their bites usually stunlocks me so if the first connects; all of the 4 ones will connect resulting in death.

I had huge problems with them in Normal Game as well in New Game+.
I tried using a Fire Murakumo +10 but regardless it takes 2 hits to kill them.
So I prefer using the Black Knight Halbard +5 that also kills them in 2 hits but gives me a slightly better range.

They are still the cheapest enemy in the game in my opinion and I hate them with a passion.

 

[verdant monkai]

I wouldn't say the game trolls you I'd say the scummy invader players do.


I hardly ever play DS online but when I do it's usually accidental. I never invade other players and I usually leave my summon sign near bosses I thought were difficult, so I believe these things justify my invasion policy. When I am invaded I qucikly gesture upwards, that usually causes them to bow/do that gesture that makes you look like a wanker. Whilst they are busy with that I sprint up and carve them up with the zweihander, which results in them dying and me continuing on my way unmolested. As I said I prefer to help and I never ask to be invaded so I feel fine about it.

Before I employed my underhanded tactic, the invaders used to be a lot more wily and would backstab me. Then they would do a load of rude gestures as I died, this is the real troll of Dark Souls invade someone, kill them, then act like a dick.

 

[notred360]

i hated the crystal caves, i kept slipping of the edge mid combat, but i didn't feel like the game was strait trolling me at all, except when i was first learning the ropes (tried to fight the first boss twice before i saw the door) or when i first tried the hellkite dragon, charged him so many times, always burning to death in the flames.

* Enemy autoaims/glitchy hitboxes
Some enemies/bosses can autotrack you, which means that even if you dodge their attack they can WHILE swinging the weapon; autoadjust its swing so that it hits you anyway. This is particulary true to the behavior of some Dark Knights such as Rock Havel but also other bosses. It means that unless you are doing pixel-perfect timing when doding you are going to take a hit.
* The Skeleton Dogs in Tombs of the Giants
They are the bane of my existence. These fuckers have a special attack that ignores both your shield and armor that one-hit kills you. Oh, and they use that special attack over and over and over again. The damage these fuckers output is larger than any boss in the game, oh and you are fighting SERVERAL of them... IN THE DARK WHERE YOU CAN'T SEE SHIT... AT ONCE... The troll is strong with this one

i never noticed any of the hit box problems you mentioned, i found dodging Havel the rock really easy, even in his gear, please elaborate on what you meant by autotrack. and with the Skeleton dogs i never had any trouble with them, though that might just be because by that point i had a max level fire gargoyle halberd that killed almost all enemy in one or two hits.

what kind of character did you use?

 

[IronMit]

Sorry to call you on your complete fucking bullshit but there is not a single boss in the entire game that can one shot you. Boss damage scales based on your max health so that can never happen.

Bosses scale with max health?
Anyone else confirm this?

I thought the point of dark souls difficulty is that it didn't scale...if an area or 'optional' boss was too difficult you could go level up and come back.

I remember being one shoted by the Hydra's water attack. One shoted by Havel and tossed off a cliff by the Iron Golem. On my second character I went to the 4 kings really early and got one shotted by some magic attack.

I think you 'shoudn't' get killed in one hit if you are at the right boss at the right time because the game is balanced for it. The enemies up to that point will provide you with the proportional amount of souls so you will be within a certain level range. Then it's down to where you spend the souls.

Therefore a fast roll build early game, without metagaming, exploring for good armor or upgrading, at the lower outlier of soul level range will probably get themselves one shotted a lot. But you would have to be some lazy rush gamer that is actually playing the game wrong.

 

[CyberAkuma]

i never noticed any of the hit box problems you mentioned, i found dodging Havel the rock really easy, even in his gear, please elaborate on what you meant by autotrack. and with the Skeleton dogs i never had any trouble with them, though that might just be because by that point i had a max level fire gargoyle halberd that killed almost all enemy in one or two hits.
what kind of character did you use?

What I mean by auto tracking is that the enemy will not hit where it was originally aiming at. Even if you circle strafe the enemy fast he will still turn around at the very last second and still hit you.

I brought Havel as an example - not that I have a lot of problems with him but serveral other examples is Knight Artorias, The chained prisoner [http://darksouls.wikidot.com/chained-prisoner].
Even though I dodge their attack, in the middle of their weapon swing they re-adjust their aim and land the hit to the side.

I dont remember the specific details of my character but I'm at level 122, 40 Dex, 30 Resistance, 30 Endurance and I think 20+ strength.

Weird hitboxes: check this [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zaw-UBQ34m4#t=01m21s] clip out.
The guy is obiously nowhere near the tentacle when he dodges it and still he takes a hit.
Happened to me all the time with that boss until I realized I have to roll 2-3 times in order to fully avoid his tentacle.

 

[Bug MuIdoon]

I didn't think DS was as tough as the hype made out. I had a few tricky, hair pulling, "Gnnnnffs#@£%tf!", controller nearly being hurled across the room moments, sure, but on the whole I didn't find it too bad and was a fairly quick Platinum trophy for me. I was expecting Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 difficulty

 

[IronMit]

i hated the crystal caves, i kept slipping of the edge mid combat, but i didn't feel like the game was strait trolling me at all, except when i was first learning the ropes (tried to fight the first boss twice before i saw the door) or when i first tried the hellkite dragon, charged him so many times, always burning to death in the flames.

* Enemy autoaims/glitchy hitboxes
Some enemies/bosses can autotrack you, which means that even if you dodge their attack they can WHILE swinging the weapon; autoadjust its swing so that it hits you anyway. This is particulary true to the behavior of some Dark Knights such as Rock Havel but also other bosses. It means that unless you are doing pixel-perfect timing when doding you are going to take a hit.
* The Skeleton Dogs in Tombs of the Giants
They are the bane of my existence. These fuckers have a special attack that ignores both your shield and armor that one-hit kills you. Oh, and they use that special attack over and over and over again. The damage these fuckers output is larger than any boss in the game, oh and you are fighting SERVERAL of them... IN THE DARK WHERE YOU CAN'T SEE SHIT... AT ONCE... The troll is strong with this one

i never noticed any of the hit box problems you mentioned, i found dodging Havel the rock really easy, even in his gear, please elaborate on what you meant by autotrack. and with the Skeleton dogs i never had any trouble with them, though that might just be because by that point i had a max level fire gargoyle halberd that killed almost all enemy in one or two hits.

what kind of character did you use?

There's 2 parts to any swing. draw back and then the strike. Basically when you parry they need to be in the second part of their attack animation-but you already know this.

If you roll before Havel enters the second portion he will reposition his swing. There is a lot a leeway. If he enters the attack animation whilst you are half way through your roll you may still evade him.

Basically OP rolls before the enemy even swings and is upset they account for it. lol

Havel can be a bit tricky if you have not figured it out though..sometimes he pauses with his dragon tooth up top begging you to roll early so he can end you.

OP also hasn't figured out shield stability, probably thinking his buckler shield should tank giant skeleton 2 handed hits
And that shields block certain percentages of magic, fire etc..so he prob tries to block magic attacks but only blocks 20% of it.

OP is playing the game like a typical hack and slasher

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Bone Wheels can be blocked, just like Giant Skeleton Dogs can be blocked. Get a halfway decent shield and pump more than 20 Endurance and they're entirely blockable. Either hope to get lucky and find a Black Knight Shield or alternatively upgrade a Spider Shield. Hell, I block them with Heater Shields. I'm sorry, but they aren't quite as difficult and OP as you're painting them.

I didn't say they were difficult, I said they were cheap. And indeed, once I went "Well fuck it, I'll just dodge these things" they were pretty much dead-bones. But, as I said, I didn't see "from three miles away" that dodging is the more reliable course of action, so this "Oh but DS is fair" is just hogwash. And it doesn't have anything to do with difficulty in the first place, the game in general isn't exactly "difficult" once you get past the clunky controls (M&K, and don't tell me to "just play with a controller" because if I wanted to play with a controller, I'd get a console) and once you know what you're doing, it's not really "difficult".

Bone Wheels are only cheap if you're caught by surprise. Of course you "didn't see from three miles away that dodging was the reliable course of action." Seeing an attack from three miles away =/= instantly being able to tell how to defend against it. Telegraphing an attack =/= showing you how to defend against said attack. When an opponent telegraphs their attack, you know they're about to attack you! So you didn't know that blocking wasn't a reliable way to defend against a Bone Wheel, for you. Well once you find out that doesn't work, you use another tactic. Dark Souls is harsh, not unfair. You're not going to know everything right off the bat but things get easier as you go.

And not everyone thinks the controls are clunky. Contrary to popular belief, I think they're tight, responsive and work very well. I'm not going to tell you to get a controller, either. If M&K works for you then by all means. I might be a minority, but Dark Souls wasn't particularly difficult when I didn't know what I was doing(which probably comes from several weeks worth of Demon's Souls experience, I dunno).