Dark Souls Six: Darkest Souls

[DocZombie]

Anyone else remember Yahtzee's Extra Punctuation article [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/columns/extra-punctuation/9276-Context-Challenge-and-Gratification] on how to categorise a game?

As far as I can see, the Souls games score extremely high on the Challenge and Gratification axes, but many players find it difficult to engage with the story (Context).

It's fair to say that, on first playthrough, it's pretty difficult to focus on anything other than "why is this demon thingy trying to eat my face, and I hope that merchant sells clean undies" aspect of the story, but revisiting the games allows you the chance to dig a bit deeper, since you now have the skillset to kill the demon thingy and take the time to run through the merchant's dialogue reel... These games are RPG's after all!

For those who don't want to bother with digging for information, there are some good Souls walkthroughs and "lore" videos on YouTube (from AGermanSpy [https://www.youtube.com/user/EpicNameBro] to name but two)


OT: Dark Souls VII : Eternal Darkness of the Spotless Soul will have full support for the Oculus Rift and Sony VR headsets - and will make them laser the shit out of your retinas during the tutorial...

 

[Stabby Joe]

I have yet to play Dark Souls II yet I completed both the first and Demon's Souls and loved them for they art style, atmosphere, strange mythology, soundtrack, pacing etc...

...oh wait no, IT IS THE HARD GAME THAT IS DIFFICULT!!!

 

[garjian]

Many fans of the game (me included) will tell you that it's not such a difficult game.
If there were nothing else going for it, why would they be fans?

Because they can brag by saying the game that only has the difficulty going for it is not such a difficult game.
They're SO PRO!!!

Yes, that's clearly why some people are literally fanatical about this franchise. Bragging rights. Of course.


I would say that DS2 has a minor issue with showing you where certain areas are. Almost half the game is behind a tiny, little pull-switch that I didn't see until a message pointed it out.
Beyond that though the game is fantastic so far and I'm getting very close to the end I'm sure. If you're struggling, my advice would be to try and manage your stamina better... never run yourself dry, so you can always dodge... oh and that, learn to dodge.

(These ad captchas are really starting to annoy me...)

 

[Casual Shinji]

If you already think it has no good graphics, no good story, no good characters, no good atmosphere, nothing at all, what's the point of anyone trying to argue any different?

I don't "think" it. I know it. Having played the actual game....

Or would you argue the game has good story, characters, etc.?

Again, if you are so sure of why the game totally sucks, why are you asking what makes it enjoyable? Unless the only reason for your post was to stick it to fans of the game.

 

[cliff excellent]

Hm, i've always wondered how hard is DS compared to Ninja Gaiden or the easier Binding of Isaac or Super Meat Boy?

I've always seen it as dark souls being slow, methodical and plodding, punishing you for rushing and not taking the time to completely take in your surroundings and possible hiding places for enemies. Whereas Ninja Gaiden is twitch reflexes to the max, both are difficult in different ways. I have much more trouble in Ninja Gaiden than dark souls just because of the sheer speed of everything coming at you all at once. Meat boys pretty much the same as Ninja Gaiden.

 

[Bindal]

I disagree. Saying that Dark Souls has a plot is like saying that Halo as a plot. Sure it does... outside of the actual game.

You're the kind of person, that needs a giant, black screen with white text stating "THIS IS THE STORY SO FAR" every 5 minutes, right? Otherwise, you would know that Dark Souls has a story and Halo has a story. All you need to do is actually pay a minimum amount of attention. As it "actually be awake"

 

[Clovus]

Claiming Dark Souls is not "hard" only makes sense when considering the game in a vacuum. Yes, you can definitely get really good at the game and easily defeat it. You don't actually need amazing reflexes either. I quickly figured out that I was terrible at the timing of the parry and riposte system. I'm not much better a hitting the invincibility frames of the roll. So, I switched to using gigantic halberds and swords. Now the game is just about watching attack patterns and figuring out when to drop the hammer.

Having said that though, this game is hard compared to almost anything else. You can definitely find harder games in terms of twitch like Super Meat Boy. But compared to, like, 95% of other games, Dark Souls is hard. Some people will argue that it is super-obvious you shouldn't go to a certain area because you're getting one-shotted. That kind of thing is hard. Most games simply don't allow it, because those games are specifically designed to make sure that most players can eventually finish the game with a handful of deaths. Dark Souls players die over 200 times per playthrough on average*. That's hard.

Although it doesn't have perma-death, you can lose a ton of progress (in souls) through death. That's hard. Normal difficulty in a modern game is to have almost a zero death penalty or to even avoid death altogether. You can savescumm in most games, especially on PC. At worst you just have to go from one short checkpoint to another. The "checkpoints" in Dark Souls are often far apart. They are even sometimes hard to find or outright hidden. That's hard.

Most games have a very clear explanation of how to build your character and get/make better loot. Dark Souls completely hides the methods for upgrading equipment. Can you figure this stuff out by paying close attention? Definitely! But simply requiring that makes the game hard. Most games now do not require anywhere near that much work to understand basic mechanics.

Just look at the magic system. If you don't start with it, picking up certain types of magic requires finding specific characters. Not many games will lock players out of magic schools like that. That's hard compared to most modern games.

Note: I'm not saying any of this stuff is "bad", I just think the game is definitely "hard" compared to the majority of modern games. Also, I don't care about the difficulty. I would have given up on the game at the Taurus Demon if not for how interesting the world is. I really love Dark Soul's story-telling techniques. I can't stand sitting through pages of fantasy-nonsense dialogue. Dark Souls has interesting lore, but, more importantly, tells everything about it's crazy cast of characters through images, gameplay, and small snippets of text. Great stuff!

*You can see some stats about the PC playthroughs of Dark Souls at this site: http://darksoulsdeaths.com/index.html

 

[Griffolion]

You didn't dodge the darts? Lol GTFO scrub.

Seriously though, Dark Souls is great.

 

[Ishal]

I just don't get it.

Yes, the game is difficult.
IT ALSO HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE GOING FOR IT.
No good graphics, no good story, no good characters, no good atmosphere, nothing at all. It's the blandest, most generic game I've ever seen.... but it's frustratingly difficult due to poorly implemented gameplay. So? What makes it so enjoyable?

If you already think it has no good graphics, no good story, no good characters, no good atmosphere, nothing at all, what's the point of anyone trying to argue any different?

I don't "think" it. I know it. Having played the actual game....

Or would you argue the game has good story, characters, etc.?

I would argue that, and I would argue that it does so better than most games because it is aware that it is, in fact, a game.

Shocking revelation I know, but it's important to be said when there are games out there with ~8.5hrs of cutscenes. Games that try so hard to be movies. Well, actually it's more like 3 or 4 movies with that ridiculous length. Looking at you MGS4.

I'm not going to try and convince you, your mind seems made up. I'll just expand on what Grey said below the comic. It treats players with respect by involving everything with the gameplay and mechanics. There are stories, quite a few of them, there are characters that have arcs. There is lore. But not much of it is fed to you, as a player you have to find it if you want to know what is going on. If you don't, then you don't have to. It's not going to force anything on you the way other games do. It also doesn't take control away from the player and break it's own rules. In FF when that chick dies, aeris or whatever, there is an item that can bring other ones back to life. Yet, it can't be used on her... why?

In DKS II there is mysterious sorceror that you can pass right by without even knowing he's there. If you free him depending on your state, hollow or human, he'll have different dialogue. Depending on that, he might even invade your world later and make an attempt on your life. You could pass through and not even experience it, and your game wouldn't be lesser or better because of it. It's these things that give the game depth.

Diagetic storytelling is something games do better than anything else. The Souls games excell at this type of storytelling by involving the player directly. It's not for everyone, I get that. Different Strokes for Different folks, but it's all there.

Grey is right. Difficulty is important to the Souls games, immensely so, but it's only part of the larger picture.

 

[NuclearKangaroo]

its "analog" not "analogue" you filthy casual!

 

[Fsyco]

I disagree. Saying that Dark Souls has a plot is like saying that Halo as a plot. Sure it does... outside of the actual game.

You're the kind of person, that needs a giant, black screen with white text stating "THIS IS THE STORY SO FAR" every 5 minutes, right? Otherwise, you would know that Dark Souls has a story and Halo has a story. All you need to do is actually pay a minimum amount of attention. As it "actually be awake"

The plot of Dark Souls is like the plot of Debbie Does Dallas: A flimsy formality used to string a series of things together that are the core of the experience. Also like Debbie Does Dallas, none of the characters are particularly interesting. I've gotten about halfway through the game, and I'm totally with Zira. I paid attention to all the stuff, I read the lore on the wiki, and yet it still doesn't feel very engaging. Mostly it's just boring. Sure, combat is pretty fun, but the 'go and fulfill the Prophecy by collecting the Foretold McGuffin' story is really, really uninteresting. The characters have no personality, and I don't really get any sense of story from the environment the way everyone else seems to. It all seems like generic ruined fantasy stuff. I totally get the 'the plot seems like it's happening outside of the game' feeling.
Maybe I'm just not the target audience, though. I don't really understand why people attempt to achieve states of loneliness and despair. When I got lost in Dark Souls, I didn't go "Gee Willikers, this sure is atmospheric!", I got frustrated and consulted a walk through and a map.

 

[softclocks]

Edit: Dark soul's difficult? I struggled way more with games like La-Mulana and Rogue's Legacy.

You're the kind of person, that needs a giant, black screen with white text stating "THIS IS THE STORY SO FAR" every 5 minutes, right? Otherwise, you would know that Dark Souls has a story and Halo has a story. All you need to do is actually pay a minimum amount of attention. As it "actually be awake"

Pretty much this.

I haven't gotten to play Dark Souls 2 yet, but as far as 1 goes there was definitely a plot, as well as an overall theme/motif.

There aren't a lot of characters in the game, but they all feel and sound unique. Crestfallen Knight was amaaaazing.

More than just good graphics, which it had, hands down some of the best stuff I saw on the PS3 or 360, the game had incredible atmosphere. I'm glad we were at the very least given ONE roleplaying-game that could do without forced narrative/constant exposition from every single character in the game.

 

[Robyrt]

The plot of Dark Souls is like the plot of Debbie Does Dallas: A flimsy formality used to string a series of things together that are the core of the experience. Also like Debbie Does Dallas, none of the characters are particularly interesting. I've gotten about halfway through the game, and I'm totally with Zira. I paid attention to all the stuff, I read the lore on the wiki, and yet it still doesn't feel very engaging. Mostly it's just boring. Sure, combat is pretty fun, but the 'go and fulfill the Prophecy by collecting the Foretold McGuffin' story is really, really uninteresting. The characters have no personality, and I don't really get any sense of story from the environment the way everyone else seems to. It all seems like generic ruined fantasy stuff. I totally get the 'the plot seems like it's happening outside of the game' feeling.
Maybe I'm just not the target audience, though. I don't really understand why people attempt to achieve states of loneliness and despair. When I got lost in Dark Souls, I didn't go "Gee Willikers, this sure is atmospheric!", I got frustrated and consulted a walk through and a map.

The most interesting plot bits in Dark Souls are locked away so far that you probably can't find them on your current playthrough. Without giving away too much, the 'go, Chosen Undead, and fulfill the Prophecy' storyline is something you are expected to roll your eyes at and reject, because it is largely a lie. By breaking the rules and rejecting the main quest line, you can draw the attention of certain other NPCs who stand to gain from your disobedience.

That being said, I agree that the obscure story is ultimately to the game's detriment. If you have a unique and cool idea that changes everything about the game, I should find out about it at the end of the game, not halfway into New Game Plus. Demon's Souls was even worse in this regard, with the single most important revelation buried inside an item description.

 

[Fsyco]

The plot of Dark Souls is like the plot of Debbie Does Dallas: A flimsy formality used to string a series of things together that are the core of the experience. Also like Debbie Does Dallas, none of the characters are particularly interesting. I've gotten about halfway through the game, and I'm totally with Zira. I paid attention to all the stuff, I read the lore on the wiki, and yet it still doesn't feel very engaging. Mostly it's just boring. Sure, combat is pretty fun, but the 'go and fulfill the Prophecy by collecting the Foretold McGuffin' story is really, really uninteresting. The characters have no personality, and I don't really get any sense of story from the environment the way everyone else seems to. It all seems like generic ruined fantasy stuff. I totally get the 'the plot seems like it's happening outside of the game' feeling.
Maybe I'm just not the target audience, though. I don't really understand why people attempt to achieve states of loneliness and despair. When I got lost in Dark Souls, I didn't go "Gee Willikers, this sure is atmospheric!", I got frustrated and consulted a walk through and a map.

The most interesting plot bits in Dark Souls are locked away so far that you probably can't find them on your current playthrough. Without giving away too much, the 'go, Chosen Undead, and fulfill the Prophecy' storyline is something you are expected to roll your eyes at and reject, because it is largely a lie. By breaking the rules and rejecting the main quest line, you can draw the attention of certain other NPCs who stand to gain from your disobedience.

That being said, I agree that the obscure story is ultimately to the game's detriment. If you have a unique and cool idea that changes everything about the game, I should find out about it at the end of the game, not halfway into New Game Plus. Demon's Souls was even worse in this regard, with the single most important revelation buried inside an item description.

You can go ahead and tell me, there's no way I'm doing a second playthrough. I know it has something to do with the cartoonish snake-thing being evil and something involving a fire.
Honestly, I vastly preferred Metal Gear Solid 4's 9 hours of cut scenes to the Dark Souls method. At least those cut scenes were interesting and had large amounts of plot happening. At least when the bosses told you their life stories in their death throes it gave you some backstory. Every time I fight a boss in Dark Souls I'm just like "well that looked interesting". Having the story told through item descriptions isn't quite the same.

 

[Branindain]

While I laughed at the comic, it's my experience that Souls games are actually getting slightly easier as they go along. DS2 seems easier if you don't partake of the self-flagellation options (Deprived class, Covenant of Champions, Bonfire Ascetics). And the ability to repair the ring that saves you from losing your souls when you die is going to make the late game way less terrifying.

Oh, and to Zira; good story? No. Good characters? I find them intriguing enough. Good graphics? Technically no, but the vistas are striking. But what it has in spades is exploration. Every area is a maze, and every time you turn a corner you find something interesting. Sometimes the interesting thing wants to rake your face, sometines it's a cool item like my beloved miracle-casting chime shield, sometimes it's something you just can't figure out. That's why I love the game, and since that isn't on your list at all clearly we just like different things. Possibly neither one of us has to be objectively wrong?

 

[Qvar]

It's not "the plot" by itself, it's the whole lore. Because you will never understand the plot in full if you're only playing it once. You will (probably) never meet Kathee, and thus you won't know how Frampt was (probably) lying to you the whole time about restarting the age of fire. You (probably) won't even know that Gwyndolin was behind all of it and Gwynevere was just a placeholder illusion.

Hell you may not even know what does the "bad" ending means, because you don't know who the pygmy was.