Dark Souls - without soul?

[Qvar]

What really irks me about that game is that I don't feel any atmosphere in it. No compelling character or story, and no particularly immersive atmosphere to get into.

That's what makes the game feel very boring to me: all I see in it is the high difficulty challenge... and nothing else.

Is there any reason why you feel the need to complain about Dark Souls in every single topic about the game, even if that means going off-topic?

OT: I can't think of any game right now where enemies have a wider set of moves (and it isn't an actual figthing game ofc).

Frankly, this bashing of Dark Souls is getting quite boring. It seems to me that people just selects a random element of the game, comes into de forums and writes two lines of "I don't like DS because X" in the hopes on baiting enough flame. The reasoning behind them is mediocre at best, as you can see examplified in this very thread.

So what if someone thinks the game lacks atmosphere? They're entitled to that opinion. It's not like it flies in the face of scientific fact - nothing that can only be measured subjectively has a "right" or a "wrong." And if someone thinks the mobs lack the type of AI they find enjoyable elsewhere, even if the AI they dislike wasn't revolutionary, then that's also their opinion. Why does said individual need to justify that to others who demand proof that their subjective opinion holds up to public scrutiny, especially to those who already hold a contrary opinion.

I don't get what do you want from the rest of us.
This is a forum. You either expect replies (which most likely will come from people who disagree), or you don't post anything.

Not only that, but if you don't expect to be asked about the reasons for opinions, then what are you doing, if not baiting for angry replies? Why do you care at all about expressing your opinion before other people, if you can't be questioned about it?

And to be honest, going into a forum and critizicing something you KNOW most people love, without even trying to make it look like a thoughtful opinion, it's eithe naive or plain trolling.

 

[NerAnima]

No way would I play this game series. Not in a million years. I have the fans to thank for that.

If you refuse to enjoy things because you find the fans distasteful, you'll miss out on a lot of good shit.
Starwars, ponies, and comics have horrible fan bases. But I enjoy those things quite a bit. I just dont associate with the particular communities I dont like.

In his opinion Dark Souls may not have much atmosphere

Yes and I've had conversation with people about how Del Toro movies have no plot, in their opinion. Or how rock isnt music, in their opinion. You can say something wrong and call it an opinion, that doesn't fool anyone but the foolish.

Much obliged, I do occasionally get tired of ranting at Souls neophytes about how they should just keep their damn shield up and look at environmental clues for traps and such. People who claim that rote memorisation is where Dark Souls' difficulty comes from are clearly playing the game wrong. I had maybe four areas that took me more than three tries (Drangleic castle, accidently kept pulling more ruin sentinels, stone soldiers. Shrine of Amana, a few more but memory fails) all because I'd been trained since Demon's Souls to look for those charred corpses on the bridge. Obviously Amaranth up there has a pretty bad understanding of the Souls series.

I was recently watching DSP play the souls games. I've lost a considerable amount of hope for our species.

Don't take this the wrong way, mostly because I don't have many posts to my name to begin with, but it almost seems like half of your posts have been on this forum alone. Granted, that's probably not saying much, but it's still interesting to someone like me.

On topic however, I think that the Souls games have done a decent job with programming the AI, and while it's not the best, it's certainly enough to make the game well worth it to me. The AI reacts well enough to at least make the bosses feel truly alive, and while some of the enemies feel truly lifeless, a fair number of them are Hollow, so it doesn't break my immersion too much.

EDIT: Sorry, forgot to touch on a few things while I was posting this.... -_-"

I can see what you mean when you say a person can't say something that's wrong and just say that it's their "opinion", but there are times when something just needs to be accepted as opinion.
The OP states that Dark Souls 1 has no atmosphere, that's fine, and to be fair, I thought the same thing when I started playing, just like I did when I started Dark Souls 2 a couple of weeks ago.

I can say that everyone who kills the Fair Lady without any reason is a dick. You may argue with that, you may not care and just want her Fire Keeper Soul, and that's fine, because we have a difference in opinion. In a game like Dark Souls, a lot of things are open to interpretation, so we have to accept that not everyone will agree on certain things.

.....Boy, I sound hopelessly optimistic talking about a game that's about the inevitability of decay and everything degrading until nothing is left.

 

[NerAnima]

What really irks me about that game is that I don't feel any atmosphere in it. No compelling character or story, and no particularly immersive atmosphere to get into.

That's what makes the game feel very boring to me: all I see in it is the high difficulty challenge... and nothing else.

I still think the story itself is very lacking, but it is there. Be prepared to have a lot of fans tell you that it's in the lore, which now that I know and understand, I must admit is pretty deep and interesting. It makes the game much more fun for me to play this second time around.

But does the game teach you the lore as you play it? If not, where on earth do the developers expect you to learn it from? I love the game, but it would be nice if you could find old documents or characters who slowly teach you things about the world as you progress. Maybe the game does have that, and I just haven't found any of it yet.

OP: I actually found the enemies more adaptive to my attacks. If I repeated an attack multiple times, a lot of enemies would surprise me, and I'd have to change my strategy. It also helps that most enemies have completely different fighting styles, forcing me to quickly adapt. After finishing Upper Undead Burg, with its large quantity of hulking, slow enemies, I was caught completely off guard by the faster dogs and thieves in Lower Undead Burg, who would actually use tactics to defeat me. When I saw three thieves fanning out in different directions, darting past cover, surrounding me, and throwing knives, I knew that the name of the game had changed completely.

There are actually a few characters who tell you bits and pieces about the world as you go along, for instance Big Hat Logan will tell you about Seath the Scaleless and what makes him immortal; Quelana will tell you about the Daughters of Chaos, and so on.

It's a problem that a number of people have with the game, as the lore is all buried in character dialogue and item descriptions, but it's also not all shot at you via exposition and painful cutscenes. Some people don't enjoy it, I found it an interesting change, and I love it, but it's no-one's fault if they aren't happy with it.

 

[Qvar]

It's a problem that a number of people have with the game, as the lore is all buried in character dialogue and item descriptions, but it's also not all shot at you via exposition and painful cutscenes. Some people don't enjoy it, I found it an interesting change, and I love it, but it's no-one's fault if they aren't happy with it.

Idd. It pains me that some people around here goes all "this game has no plot QQ" being totally unfair towards the magnificient work the creators did.

Sure, DS doesn't bash your face with the plot. It's actually quite hidden, bit by bit. In fact, you don't get to know the ACTUAL plot until you've met Kaathe, which most likely won't happen until NG+, if at all. So it's not your fault if you don't find the plot, but neither is the creators', because it IS there. It's nobody's fault that you don't like that kind of game, so if you stop bashing a game YOU don't like as if it were an universal defect, that would be much apreciated.

I hope it's obvious that I've been using an impersonal 2nd person there

 

[Sniper Team 4]

What really irks me about that game is that I don't feel any atmosphere in it. No compelling character or story, and no particularly immersive atmosphere to get into.

That's what makes the game feel very boring to me: all I see in it is the high difficulty challenge... and nothing else.

I still think the story itself is very lacking, but it is there. Be prepared to have a lot of fans tell you that it's in the lore, which now that I know and understand, I must admit is pretty deep and interesting. It makes the game much more fun for me to play this second time around.

But does the game teach you the lore as you play it? If not, where on earth do the developers expect you to learn it from? I love the game, but it would be nice if you could find old documents or characters who slowly teach you things about the world as you progress. Maybe the game does have that, and I just haven't found any of it yet.

It does, but not in the way you think, which is what threw me off the first time too. The characters that you meet give you little bits of info that, when you first hear them, sound useless or not important. However, each little piece begins to add up into something more. But where the real lore starts to come in is when you read the descriptions on items. Weapons, shields, spells, and especially Boss Souls that you'll start getting. These items all have history in them, and as you gather them and read them, you are able to put together a much bigger picture than the game gives you up front. You learn about Gwyn's Knights, wars that were fought, why the First Flame went out of control...but none of it is taught to you. Or at least, very little is. You have to look for it yourself and read.
Or you can do what a lot of people, myself included to some degree, did and just do reading on the internet or watch YouTube videos where the lore is already put together for you.

 

[NerAnima]

It's a problem that a number of people have with the game, as the lore is all buried in character dialogue and item descriptions, but it's also not all shot at you via exposition and painful cutscenes. Some people don't enjoy it, I found it an interesting change, and I love it, but it's no-one's fault if they aren't happy with it.

Idd. It pains me that some people around here goes all "this game has no plot QQ" being totally unfair towards the magnificent work the creators did.

Sure, DS doesn't bash your face with the plot. It's actually quite hidden, bit by bit. In fact, you don't get to know the ACTUAL plot until you've met Kaathe, which most likely won't happen until NG+, if at all. So it's not your fault if you don't find the plot, but neither is the creators', because it IS there. It's nobody's fault that you don't like that kind of game, so if you stop bashing a game YOU don't like as if it were an universal defect, that would be much apreciated.

I hope it's obvious that I've been using an impersonal 2nd person there

I had gotten confused on the last sentence, and I sort of figured you were, but it's nice that you cleared it up anyways.

In any case, I don't honestly care for Kaathe and the Dark-Stalkers, that Covenant has been nothing but a pain since I started. I'll decide if I want the fire to be lit or not, I'm not having my fate dictated by a snake with "joke teeth and mustache tumors." (I'll be amazed if anyone knows who I'm referencing.)

 

[WWmelb]

Hoooooo boy, okey dokie.

I'm a huge Dark Souls fan. 400+ hours in the first game and thoroughly enjoying the second, and I'm the first person to say that the games have flaws. LOTS of flaws. But I love them for those flaws, not despite them. The game feels rough and raw and gamey. I always say that Dark Souls is basically an NES game wrapped in a modern skin. It's not a super organic and dynamic shiny corridor to walk down like a lot of games try to be these days. It's both more and less than that at the same time.

It's slow and brutal and broody and methodic. You have a very limited, minimalist moveset to work with and adapt around. No +5 Cleave attack that bleeds enemies on a 2 second cooldown. Enemies and NPCs are raw and retro-feeling. They attack and move like hollow robots and if you're clever you can trick them into traps. You get lost and frustrated and often have no clue what the fuck to do or where to go. Your favourite weapons end up sucking in late-game because you didn't level up in the right way or you come across an area that counters your armour build. It forces you to stop and think and plan, not just bash your way through like nearly every other action game out there.

It's not meant to be for everyone, but you're totally entitled to your opinion man. But I don't want Dark Souls to be different. I don't want it to be like every other game. Dark Souls does what it does, and you either like it or don't. I fucking love it personally, but I'm never going to say that you have to as well. Oh sure, I might try and show you why I think it's great, if only because I want to share it. I probably went a bit overboard with this reply, but I really do love this series.

Now why can't others offer up a similar reply? Even a cursory glance around this thread will yield a number of veiled-insult posts. I mean, for fucks sake, someone actually used the term neophytes and lamented about how annoyed he was having to instruct them on the ins-and-outs of the game.

The level of elitism is staggering.

Other fans could learn a lot from your kind of temperament.

A lot of the problem with long time Souls fans is that there have been SOOOOO many threads/topics/rants etc from people who did not like the game, or found it too hard, or didn't like the way pvp/pve were intertwined were calling for from soft to change it.

It so often sounded like jealous rage towards people "How dare there be something that you like that i don't enjoy too?!! CHANGE THE GAME SO I CAN LIKE IT TOO!" rather than just stepping back and saying "well, this game isn't for me" and moving on. So many years of this in a row that caused fans to get a little kneejerky some times.

I've never heard any greater criticisms of the souls series than by the fans themselves, who go into great depth to not only discuss what they love about the games, but where the developers went wrong and what they could possibly do to fix them, rather than the people who hate the game or dislike it create threads "whats the big deal about souls? souls is shit" etc for so long.

I've been involved in a LOT of discussions about Demons', Dark and DS2 over the last 4 years and i've been very critical of them all in certain regards.

But i love all three games, all for different reasons.

Really, the reason a lot of Souls players come off as confrontational or aggressive is that the souls games are so unique and rare, that we find it hard to reconcile with people who can't accept that this series just isn't their cup of tea, and leave this last bastion of hope we have unsullied, but instead scream for it to be changed so they can like it too. And the possibility of that happening frightens us all who love the game.

TLR

You don't have to like Souls games as they are, but if you don't, just play something else, don't demand it to be changed to suit your desires.

 

[Qvar]

In any case, I don't honestly care for Kaathe and the Dark-Stalkers, that Covenant has been nothing but a pain since I started. I'll decide if I want the fire to be lit or not, I'm not having my fate dictated by a snake with "joke teeth and mustache tumors." (I'll be amazed if anyone knows who I'm referencing.)

Of course, it's up to you to decide what do you do in the end.

But the existence of Kaathe, and what he tells you if you do meet him, changes the plot of the game from:
"Meet Frampt, he tells you to reach big bad, kill him, save the world"

to

"Frampt told you to kill Gwyn, but he's (may be) a lying ************. He's on cahoots with Gwyndolyn, and they both want you to unknowinly but willingly sacrifice yourself to keep their own power a little longer. So you may go and kill that freak too, before you actually kill Gwyn anyway, but in this case you liberate humanity from the opression of gods. Whom by the way caused this whole "hollow" mess in order to force humanity to sacrifice their humanity, because that keeps their power going for a little longer, while they try to get some fool to immolate himself. Or not. Maybe it's just Kaathe lying to you. Good luck sucker".

snip

*tips hat*

 

[joest01]

How about you give some examples of games where the AI isn't "robotic" then, because honestly, your complaint covers just about every game enemy ever conceived. What enemy doesn't cycle through a predetermined amount of moves, which we as the player then try to exploit?

The soldiers in Crysis 1 have interesting AI - flanking moves etc.

A bit of adaptability in the AI in Dark Souls would be nice depending on what style of moves and weapons you use. Say you have heavy armour or a two handed weapon, vary the types of moves used.

At the moment the bosses and enemies just seem very devoid of personality in my opinion.

the enemies in DS2 even cancel moves mid-combo depending on what you're up to. And they will immediately react when you switch to a ranged weapon for example. Archers will try to hit you and switch to their sword if you hide behind a pillar. Turtles will flip and crush you under them if you circle strafe around them.

That doesn't mean they aren't limited to their move set. Like a real human is too btw. Watch an MMA fight an it's all about what moves you know, which you can defend against and it goes from there.

If you mean their crowd intelligence I agree they certainly could be smarter in how they come after you ...

 

[Vigormortis]

snip

But see, as a fan of things like Half-Life, Halo, etc, I've known this kind of long, drawn-out, and perpetual negative reaction - especially on this forum. I know exactly what it's like to log on every week and see yet another thread throwing into question my enjoyment of a specific series.

However, the kind of elitism that's seen within the Souls community became prevalent well before the long stretch of negative criticism. And much of the hostility as well.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate addressing and countering negative criticisms with your own critiques and opinions. I'll even laud the effort since; as has happened with me in the past; it can sometimes lead to a greater personal understanding and appreciation of a piece of media. Especially when analyzing the negative criticisms. That said though, much of the more vocal minority (which at times seems like the majority, given their zeal) of Souls fans go beyond countering negative criticisms and step right into the range of overreaction.

I understand where the fans are coming from. I've been there. But being so indignant and insulting towards anyone that criticizes the series or anyone that laments about one aspect or another not quite suiting their tastes (and wishing it be changed) serves no one and only makes things worse. It certainly paints a poor image of the community at large.

 

[WWmelb]

snip

But see, as a fan of things like Half-Life, Halo, etc, I've known this kind of long, drawn-out, and perpetual negative reaction - especially on this forum. I know exactly what it's like to log on every week and see yet another thread throwing into question my enjoyment of a specific series.

However, the kind of elitism that's seen within the Souls community became prevalent well before the long stretch of negative criticism. And much of the hostility as well.

Don't get me wrong. I appreciate addressing and countering negative criticisms with your own critiques and opinions. I'll even laud the effort since; as has happened with me in the past; it can sometimes lead to a greater personal understanding and appreciation of a piece of media. Especially when analyzing the negative criticisms. That said though, much of the more vocal minority (which at times seems like the majority, given their zeal) of Souls fans go beyond countering negative criticisms and step right into the range of overreaction.

I understand where the fans are coming from. I've been there. But being so indignant and insulting towards anyone that criticizes the series or anyone that laments about one aspect or another not quite suiting their tastes (and wishing it be changed) serves no one and only makes things worse. It certainly paints a poor image of the community at large.

I can certainly see that, and the Souls series fans do seem to have a negative reputation with the rest of the community, but i do think it all comes from a vicious cycle.

Overall though, regardless of the rep that us souls fans have, the souls community has always been to me unbelievably friendly, helpful and inclusive.

Yes there a FEW of the "git gud scrub" types, but they really are a vast minority just very very vocal.

But yes, i will defend this series as it is to people who level criticism for the sake of it with nothing to actually input, but people with something worthwhile to say will always be listened to.

Hell just read some of the threads i've made about DS2 and you will see that i certainly in no way think the game is perfect lol

captcha: down the rabbit hole

Nope, just got on here after coming Through the Looking Glass... god i'm an asshole sometimes lol. Poor guy, i almost feel bad when people are actually soloing the boss...

 

[TrevHead]

snip

I think it's important to note that with Dark Souls isn't like most games, even with Half Life most gamers in a thread are all on the same wavelength with each other. Souls however has it's roots in NES/Arcade challenge gaming, it's fans have a totally different perspective on games and game design tenants that most modern gamers go by. Dark Souls fans vs the mainstream gamer is more akin to an argument between a group of gamers who really loves Grinding and MT's and think EA's Dungeon Keeper mobile game is the best thing ever, while on the other hand other gamers who want to like the game say all the MT's should be removed, but that's the very reason why fans love it so, even a compromise such as putting in MT free modes (easy mode) would break the game for fans, why bother grinding or paying MT's when you can bypass it all? It's simply not possible to design the game to please both gamer types without watering down and ruining the experience for one or both.

 

[Vigormortis]

I can certainly see that, and the Souls series fans do seem to have a negative reputation with the rest of the community, but i do think it all comes from a vicious cycle.

Overall though, regardless of the rep that us souls fans have, the souls community has always been to me unbelievably friendly, helpful and inclusive.

Yes there a FEW of the "git gud scrub" types, but they really are a vast minority just very very vocal.

I don't disagree. I'm fully aware the more toxic side of the Souls fan-base stems from the vocal minority.

However, even if they're unaware of it, many Souls fans let a certain air of superiority slip through their filters while discussing the game with detractors. Not all, of course, but enough to make it noticeable.

At the same time, it would probably help if the more tempered and friendly portion of the community spoke up a bit more in opposition to the more vitriolic minority.

'Course, this is often the case with many fan-bases, so the Souls community certainly isn't alone in this.

But yes, i will defend this series as it is to people who level criticism for the sake of it with nothing to actually input, but people with something worthwhile to say will always be listened to.

Hell just read some of the threads i've made about DS2 and you will see that i certainly in no way think the game is perfect lol

No game is.

And honestly, being able to listen to and even offer your own criticisms; even harsh ones; about the things you enjoy can help you enjoy those things even more.

snip

But you see, this is exactly the kind of mentality that leads to the kind of toxic community the Souls series is infamous for; prevalent or not.

You make a point of differentiating gamers into two distinct groups - "Darks Souls fans vs mainstream gamers". This is the type of differentiation that leads to the kind of elitism we've been seeing.

It's fine to not want the series to be changed in such a way as to make it appealing to more people, but presenting that opinion in the way you've done gives a sense of elitism - whether intentional or not. I'm certainly not saying you think that way, of course, but you can see why many would see it this way, yes? This is where the generally negative view of the Souls community stems from.

Still, I do know where you're coming from. I appreciate the unease that comes with the thought of a series you enjoy suddenly changing into something that is less appealing. I've even shared that feeling with some of the series I've enjoyed. But having an "us versus them" mentality isn't constructive.

Again, not that I think you feel this way. I'm just saying this is where much of the negativity comes from.

 

[Drizzitdude]

I cannot tell if the op is just messing with us. Pretty much every rpg, no pretty much every game rather forces enemies to follow a predetermined set of moves for a variety of situations. Name an rpg where enemies literally have an unlimited skill/move set, it doesn't exist. Dragons will breath fire when your far away, enemies do sweeping attacks when you come at an angle or attempt to counter you when you swing, its all very common stuff so I don't see what the complaint is. What are you trying to compare the game to that makes this method seem "archaic"?

On the topic of enemies not patrolling that isn't really true. There are plenty of enemies that do have patrol paths but I will agree that they don't do anything aside from that. I can look past that though due to the fact it contributes to the high quality level design, also if you were a rotting corpse with no soul or memories and with nothing but other dead dudes around you what would you do? It isn't like you would hit the clubs or have a nice meal. You essentially a zombie, you would probably sit around and moan all day.

If we're looking at RPGs - take Dragons Age, Baldur's Gate, Icewind Dale - the enemies have AI that can react to what you're doing - they have the same skill set as you and will use those abilities reactively - for example to take out your weak mages first, so you have to counter and manage the agro for example, as well as engaging in spell battles etc. These enemies do feel like actual living beings and not very gamey.

But you find that those game are able to have those types of things because your actions are limited as well by the combat system. Sacrificing active combat for a turn and dice based mechanic is just simpler overall and enemies react in a similar way to the play because the players actions are also limited by a relatively small moveset.

I would also take dragon age off that list because you can very easily facetank your way through that game even on the harder difficulties. Enemies tend to "react" less in that game and very simply follow normal patterns like "focus high threat targets" that are extremely simple. The only thing I would consider gamey about dark souls is that the enemies do indeed just stand around waiting for you to come fight them, but it isn't like enemies in other games do much else (unless you count skyrim, where they sit on their ass, eat and then sleep while waiting for you to kill them)

 

[TrevHead]

snip

I certainly see the point you are making about boiling a discussion down into us vs them however I feel it's sad that so many ppl automatically see elitism when 9/10 it's only a matter of gaming preference over some that enjoy a new game genre (which Souls is IMO) and those who don't.

However you are right there is a lot of bad blood over this game, which really shouldn't be there, I'll reframe future arguments in Souls threads in a not so binary way.

 

[Vigormortis]

I certainly see the point you are making about boiling a discussion down into us vs them however I feel it's sad that so many ppl automatically see elitism when 9/10 it's only a matter of gaming preference over some that enjoy a new game genre (which Souls is IMO) and those who don't.

However you are right there is a lot of bad blood over this game, which really shouldn't be there, I'll reframe future arguments in Souls threads in a not so binary way.

And I'll be sure to listen to all counter-points offered to my criticisms of something.[footnote]Not that I've ever really NOT listened to them, nor ever not wanted to, but you get what I'm saying.[/footnote]

 

[NerAnima]

In any case, I don't honestly care for Kaathe and the Dark-Stalkers, that Covenant has been nothing but a pain since I started. I'll decide if I want the fire to be lit or not, I'm not having my fate dictated by a snake with "joke teeth and mustache tumors." (I'll be amazed if anyone knows who I'm referencing.)

Of course, it's up to you to decide what do you do in the end.

But the existence of Kaathe, and what he tells you if you do meet him, changes the plot of the game from:
"Meet Frampt, he tells you to reach big bad, kill him, save the world"

to

"Frampt told you to kill Gwyn, but he's (may be) a lying ************. He's on cahoots with Gwyndolyn, and they both want you to unknowinly but willingly sacrifice yourself to keep their own power a little longer. So you may go and kill that freak too, before you actually kill Gwyn anyway, but in this case you liberate humanity from the opression of gods. Whom by the way caused this whole "hollow" mess in order to force humanity to sacrifice their humanity, because that keeps their power going for a little longer, while they try to get some fool to immolate himself. Or not. Maybe it's just Kaathe lying to you. Good luck sucker".

Yeah, doesn't mean I don't still hate Kaathe, but it just means that I can't trust either of those snake....things.

Still, I like a lot of the other characters, even if I have to kill them, and then I feel like a *****...

 

[Skin]

They still feel like robots to me, which breaks the illusion of Lordran and reminds me I'm playing a game.

You are playing a game though... Seems like you just don't like the game and trying to discredit it by using nonsensical arguments.

I honestly feel like this thread should be closed because of the low quality post in the OP. All you did was state an opinion that has almost 0 discussion value.

 

[endtherapture]

They still feel like robots to me, which breaks the illusion of Lordran and reminds me I'm playing a game.

You are playing a game though... Seems like you just don't like the game and trying to discredit it by using nonsensical arguments.

I honestly feel like this thread should be closed because of the low quality post in the OP. All you did was state an opinion that has almost 0 discussion value.

Well it's not a nonsensical argument because it's how I feel. I haven't played an hour of the game, got stuck on the Taurus Demon, and given up, I've got about 30 hours into the game and am at the Demon Ruins right now. The game is supposedly one of the most atmospheric experiences in gaming...but when I got to Anor Londo the whole illusion of Lordran was completely killed for me by how "gamey" that section was and how the enemies and level design was set up.

It's an opinion, and the entire gaming industry revolves around the opinions of people, rather than objective facts. Just cos you're in love with Dark Souls doesn't mean every thread that doesn't praise this game should be closed.

snip

I agree that Dark Souls was a breath of fresh air into the industry but a lot of DS fans do have an elitist attitude about them - "You don't understand this game" "We don't want this game ruined by casuals". I'd hardly say I'm a casual gamer, I mod Skyrim extensively, some of my favourite games are isometric RPGs and Infinity Engine games, and I generally prefer games with thought over spectacle - but a lot of DS fans just accuse you of being stupid if you don't fall in love with the game which is a pretty condescending attitude to have.

 

[TrevHead]

Well it's not a nonsensical argument because it's how I feel. I haven't played an hour of the game, got stuck on the Taurus Demon, and given up, I've got about 30 hours into the game and am at the Demon Ruins right now. The game is supposedly one of the most atmospheric experiences in gaming...but when I got to Anor Londo the whole illusion of Lordran was completely killed for me by how "gamey" that section was and how the enemies and level design was set up.

It's an opinion, and the entire gaming industry revolves around the opinions of people, rather than objective facts. Just cos you're in love with Dark Souls doesn't mean every thread that doesn't praise this game should be closed.

Actually OP I do agree with you somewhat, and you point certainly isn't none nonsensical. While everybody says every AI is like that is correct OFC not every game requires the player to observe the AI's patterns in a "gamey" way, you certainly don't in Skyrim (which you say you mod for) and Bethesda's other WRPG's.

Both games are built for their intended audience Skyrim to me has mostly dumb gameplay and the enemies seem dumb because they aren't "gamey". On the other hand DS1 is right up my street and very gamey it's like playing an old Japanese arcade game or a Treasure boss / Street Fighter 2 where the only way to play is to not be dumb and wail on the enemy, but take a step back, analyse it's patterns and it's AI. It's slow paced combat and it's parry / backstab mechanics enforces. It's totally new to the WRPG genre, more like a MMO or JRPG.

I agree that Dark Souls was a breath of fresh air into the industry but a lot of DS fans do have an elitist attitude about them - "You don't understand this game" "We don't want this game ruined by casuals". I'd hardly say I'm a casual gamer, I mod Skyrim extensively, some of my favourite games are isometric RPGs and Infinity Engine games, and I generally prefer games with thought over spectacle - but a lot of DS fans just accuse you of being stupid if you don't fall in love with the game which is a pretty condescending attitude to have.

I'd ask that you cut some slack to those ppl who say "well duh, every AI has patterns" as I'd guess that many players play other games in the same mindset as DS, I know I did for years when I had my Shmup / arcade gaming hat on (at the time Bethesda's WRPGs were extremely vapid experiences for me, that's why I loath Fallout 3 so much which I played at that time).

While I respect that the "gamey" aspect's of DS1 pulls you out of the immersion, the same can't be said for most of the ppl who love the game. Infact for me it's the very opposite, as the way DS handles difficulty, always keeping me on my toes and analyse enemy AI added to the immersion and what made such a gripping experience. Skyrim on the otherhand I've being playing (1st playthrough) this past 2-3 weeks due to being ill and wanting a game to relax to, while I've spent 100+ hours mostly exploring / side quests the fact that the combat is so uninteresting in a gamey way I can't stand playing it any longer, it's lost it's charm and immersion as all I see is a "dumb game with dumb enemies".

(BTW Sorry if much of this is just going over what I said to your 1st quote, I've being swapping between both sections as I type making a mess out of my train of thought and this post and I'm too lazy to retype it)

To weigh in what you say about the "Souls fanbase" more correctly the more vocal types on this forum like me, I can understand why you'd see the fanbase in such a way, we are a defensive lot however the Souls series is a rare gem to many ppl as it's the only AAA in donkey's years to approach difficulty and the rest of it's game design in such a uncompromising way. A very very important thing for us purist types who have seen game genres and series watered down to suit other demographics. If we had 10 new games to pressed all our buttons like DS did we wouldn't have being so protective, some players don't enjoy modern AAAs and stick to retro only. (imo a point lost on many gamers asking for easy modes etc) The fact that FROM were putting out PR statements like "widening the audience", "going after Skyrim money" and a new director who wants to "streamline and simplify" put the gamers on edge aswell.

Basically it sucks if you like AAA and have very niche and under-represented tastes. Not that any of it should exclude other types of gamers. Also sorry if I've used hardcore / casual in the past, not meant as a put down to non DS fans I just mean the game is very niche and complex just like Eve or LoL. I even call myself a casual gamer who plays hardcore games.