So to conclude, I am sorry you had such difficulty understanding what I said, or my reasoning for saying it. I have done my best to clarify the position and clear up misunderstandings around it. Ive stated my opinion, Ive clarified it, but with all due respect I will not argue it. My position has been made clear and there is nothing to gain having to repeat what I have just said. So I thank you for your reply and hope that has helped to improve the understanding of any who have read it. Though I do respect human nature and fully understand that most people are likely going file it under the category TL;DR, just like they do for most EULAs.
Oh, so you were using spoiler tags. I just stared at the words "Steam" and "Red hook" and thought the rest of your sentence was just aggravating me, in the way of "If you don't understand the difference between Red Hook and Steam I won't bother telling you, sorry you have difficulty understanding how those 3 words prove my point".
Now that I've actually read your post (please mention you're about to use spoiler tags next time) I completely disagree with your ways of objecting Steam based on technical terms. I'm not going to argue about origin of English terms like purchasing and leasing since it's not my native language so let's say you are technically absolutely correct. However you could technically object buying coke cans because you're paying some extra for the metal can that has to be returned to recycle center for 20 cents and technically you're just leasing the can and temporarily paying extra 0,2? so Coca-Cola is the root of all evil and stupid sheeples should wake up to understand this devilish scheme! Okay, Coca-Cola wasn't the best example of honest business but you (hopefully) get the idea. Better example: some people buy bananas for let's say 2? per kilogram (dollars per pound in US I guess) without understanding that quite a lot of that kilogram of bananas is "wasted" on the banana peels. Does that mean that the grocery store is ripping people off and bananas should be sold peeled or with the peel/fruit flesh ratio calculated on each banana? I think not.
I also think that Red Hook has made it perfectly clear that Darkest Dungeon won't be a completely finished product by Q1 2015 so I don't personally see and dodgy behaviour. Everyone who Kickstarter'd the game (including me) will get a functional, full game later on, I'm optimistic and guess they'll leave Early Access in late 2015.
"When it does come up asking when will the game be available to actually purchase, the best that is responded is "We are working on making the game good first", as if the game is functionally finished and simply needs a few tweaks."
"Making the game good" = "this game is almost finished" is quite the mental leap and I have no idea how you interpret it that way. My experience with Red Hook has been overwhelmingly positive and I've already got my 20$ worth of enjoyment from this "incomplete project" (which it technically is, I agree) and I believe they'll finish the game, not because of trusting the company, but because financially it would be the smartest thing for them to do.
I suspect it's because the game has been pretty bloody successful, another example of what can happen when Kickstarter works properly, but also came with a bit of controversy attached. Basically Red Hook created an exclusive character class specifically for backers. This has lead to a lot of people being upset about never being able to get all the content when they didn't back the game. That said those that backed the game and took the risks (especially those who paid more than $20) are in many cases upset about losing their exclusive benefit if Red Hook was to make this available to everyone, or provide it as buyable DLC later. I haven't followed it recently, but last time I checked Red Hook seemed to be waffling back and forth going by what I was reading in locations like the STEAM forums. Either way they are probably going to slot people off, and I wouldn't be surprised if they are being targeted by people POed in either direction since the game became popular enough for people to actually care.
That said exclusive in-game content is one of the things that those planning a kick starter can promise fairly easily without worrying about the cost of manufacturing and shipping physical goods and the like. If this is any indication, and if I'm correct about what might be going on, it could have some interesting ramifications for the whole system of financing down the road.
My understanding is that the exclusive class is a cosmetically altered clone of an existing class, so there's no mechanical benefit that non-backers are missing out on. Just in regards to how important it is.
Oh, so you were using spoiler tags. I just stared at the words "Steam" and "Red hook" and thought the rest of your sentence was just aggravating me, in the way of "If you don't understand the difference between Red Hook and Steam I won't bother telling you, sorry you have difficulty understanding how those 3 words prove my point".
My apologies. I honestly never thought to warn for spoilers to avoid Wall of text retinal aneurysm. Sorry for my presumption. Was doing it simply to make it easier to read, and less load space.
Do want to address your analogies.
In the case of a banana, a banana does not exist without its peel. (Is it a peel before it has been peel, or is it skin? Not really sure, but Ill continue calling it a peel) The fact its peel makes distribution easier in this case is coincidental. However, a game most certainly can come into creation completely absent of steam. While it might seem like waste, you still own the peel and are free to do with it as you wish. Granted most people just discard it, However I save mine (and other produce waste)livestock feed, or compost for making fertilizer for the family farm. Owning it bestows such freedom. Just the same as others are free to discard it.
In the case of the can of soda, you also own the can. There is nothing that requires you to turn the can back in once you are done with it.(Least in the US) You can cut it up, use it for metal scrap, re purpose them for other uses. Personally I have a solar heater I made out of a box, 120 soda cans painted black, and a peice of temper glass to help warm air and vent it into my workshop so it does not waste electricity to heat. I also save them, along with steel cans so I can start smelting, forging, ect in my workshops forge.
Also if applied to the instance of steam, that would mean you would be due a refund upon completion of the game for the portion of digital distribution, which we know does not, nor ever will happen because that distribution is the whole of steams business model.
So I have to disagree with your analogies because they are seemingly based in flawed reasoning. You do not own the steam client, and you cannot repurpose it into something it was not originally designed for. So trying to compare steam as the method of distribution to other methods of distribution whereby you actually own them does not stand up to scrutiny.
Moreover and I think this is probably the most important part to illustrate where the analogies fall short. You do not have to review and agree to a set of terms and conditions to purchase a banana or a can of soda.
Now, you can disagree with what I stated, but what I stated about steam is not opinion, It is not an interpretation. It is fact. You do not own anything in steam. It IS in their TOS.
Steam and your Subscription(s) require the automatic download and installation of Software onto your computer. Valve hereby grants, and you accept, a limited, terminable, non-exclusive license and right to use the Software for your personal, non-commercial use (except where commercial use is expressly allowed herein or in the applicable Subscription Terms) in accordance with this Agreement, including the Subscription Terms. The Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Software. To make use of the Software, you must have a Steam Account and you may be required to be running the Steam client and maintaining a connection to the Internet.
For reasons that include, without limitation, system security, stability, and multiplayer interoperability, Steam may need to automatically update, pre-load, create new versions of or otherwise enhance the Software and accordingly, the system requirements to use the Software may change over time. You consent to such automatic updating. You understand that this Agreement (including applicable Subscription Terms) does not entitle you to future updates, new versions or other enhancements of the Software associated with a particular Subscription, although Valve may choose to provide such updates, etc. in its sole discretion.
Section nien: We have altered the deal said:
9. AMENDMENTS TO THIS AGREEMENT
PLEASE NOTE: If you are a consumer with place of residence in Germany, a different version of Section 9 applies to you, which is available here.
Valve may amend this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use) at any time in its sole discretion. If Valve amends the Agreement, such amendment shall be effective thirty (30) days after Valve provides you with notice of the amended Agreement, either via e-mail or as a notification within the Software. You can view the Agreement at any time at http://www.steampowered.com/. Your failure to cancel your Account, or cease use of the Subscription(s) affected by the amendment, within thirty (30) days after receiving notification of the amendment, will constitute your acceptance of the amended terms. If you don?t agree to the amendments or to any of the terms in this Agreement, your only remedy is to cancel your Account or to cease use of the affected Subscription(s). Valve shall not have any obligation to refund any fees that may have accrued to your Account before cancellation of your Account or cessation of use of any Subscription, nor shall Valve have any obligation to prorate any fees in such circumstances.
Section 10 Paragraph C We can terminate your account at any time with or without reason. said:
C. Termination by Valve
Valve may cancel your Account or any particular Subscription(s) at any time in the event that (a) Valve ceases providing such Subscriptions to similarly situated Subscribers generally, or (b) you breach any terms of this Agreement (including any Subscription Terms or Rules of Use). In the event that your Account or a particular Subscription is terminated or cancelled by Valve for a violation of this Agreement or improper or illegal activity, no refund, including of any Subscription fees or of any unused funds in your Steam Wallet, will be granted.
So I say so with all due respect, you can disagree with my statements, however your disapproval of them does not in any way make them any less factual. And this does go back to what I said before, given that this has to be explained in this level of detail does in fact illustrate how well the general gaming populous properly understand what Steam is.
Other thought. I do have to thank you. It has been about a year since I last reviewed the steam ToS. (I discontinued my steam account after steam went consumer hostile with their mandatory abdication of legal rights provision) It was interesting to learn that steam has finally suffered one blow by way of the German people standing up for justice. (Given this is a US based website, and the predominant language spoken is English, Ill not assume others can read German, and will post a translated copy of the German exception.
In the original German
http://store.steampowered.com/subscriber_agreement_de/
If you make a transaction or want to use a new feature of steam, we can if necessary, by their agreement to the use of a new version of this Agreement. You are not obliged to give such consent. The access to their existing subscription is retained even if you reject the changes. However, you may not be able make new transactions or new functionality of steam, so long as you do not agree with the amended version of this Agreement. The right of valve, unilateral changes in accordance with the following provisions, remains unaffected.
Valve is entitled, this Agreement (including any advantageous subscription conditions or usage guidelines) unilaterally modify, in so far as (a) the changes are necessary for a new legal situation or other circumstances, to take into account the at the conclusion of the agreement were not foreseeable, provided that the exclusion of these circumstances the balance of the contractual relationship in not negligible extent was disturbing; or (b) it is necessary, in order to overcome difficulties in the implementation of the Treaty to eliminate gaps created after the conclusion of the contract; or (c) the amendments only adjustments to the wording of the agreement cover only the terms of this Agreement, the simplify or clarify.
As far as the agreement unilaterally revising valve, valve you have the change via e-mail to your registered e-mail address in steam and/or when you log in via the client software from Steam in steam notify. The change will be at the end of thirty (30) days after receipt of the notification of the adjustment of the agreement takes effect. You can view http://www.steampowered.com/ under the Agreement at any time. The right to your user account at any time in accordance with paragraph 10 (B) to terminate, remains unaffected.
This was a development I was not aware of, but I am glad to see the positive effect of this correction.
However I will leave it at that as I have already derailed this thread enough. My sincere apologies for doing so as my intent was on topic.
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