David Jaffe Dumps on "Art Games"

Andy Chalk

One Flag, One Fleet, One Cat
Nov 12, 2002
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David Jaffe Dumps on "Art Games"


Outspoken God of War creator David Jaffe thinks art games are "smoke and mirrors b*llshit" and that giving them accolades for showing off the potential of the medium is ultimately harmful to "pure games."

The "game as art" debate has been raging for ages, sometimes as a serious discussion, sometimes as just a topic to kick around during slow times on a forum. One guy who seems to take the matter very seriously is Jaffe, best known as the mastermind behind the Twisted Metal [http://www.amazon.com/God-War-Collection-Playstation-3/dp/B002NN7AKU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300132503&sr=8-1] games, and who doesn't seem to have much use for so-called "art games."

"Just because there's wind blowing and a minimal soundtrack and vast open spaces to explore and a slow pace doesn't mean that the game you are playing is art," he wrote in a lengthy blog post. "And just because a game's story and presentation contains elements you've see in the 'big boy movies' doesn't make a game adult or mean the medium is maturing. These are all surface elements that - while challenging as anything else in games to produce well - do not speak to the maturation of the medium one iota."

The problem in Jaffe's mind is that as long as people keep falling for the "smoke and mirrors bullshit" of games that trumpet themselves as art, any actual growth of the medium will be stunted because developers will buy into the story that they've already "arrived" as artists. But what really gets him wound up is what he sees as the harm being done to "pure games" by all the praise and acclaim that's heaped upon art games.

"Shining the powerful media light on these sorts of games - that tell you they are important but are not really all that engaging/interesting play wise and are nowhere near as emotional or meaningful as most B rate, night time dramas on network television - means that the media light and publisher cash gets taken away from traditional games," he explained. "And because of this, traditional games are disrespected, devalued, and shown a lack of appreciation, understanding, and love for the very things the medium does so well, so effortlessly, and so successfully."

"To shed copious print and e-ink (not to mention publisher marketing dollars) on a title just because it shouts loudly that it is art/important (where - upon closer inspection - said title is usually 'simply' a game (and usually an average one at that) cloaked in artistic robes created for - and custom tailored to fit - another medium) is a real problem," he continued. "To be going on and on about how games need to be/can be/should be/already are 'more' than 'just games' to me disrespects the joy and happiness traditional games bring to the world."

Believe it or not, that's just a small sample of Jaffe's argument, the whole of which goes into much greater depth and makes some very interesting points along the way. I disagree entirely; I think that by trumpeting the potential of the medium, we ultimately attract new artists who push new frontiers, and that encourages innovation, not stagnation. The assumption that it has to be a zero-sum game is entirely fallacious. But for anyone interested in the games as art debate, it's well worth reading. Check out the whole thing at criminalcrackdown.blogspot.com [http://criminalcrackdown.blogspot.com/2011/03/shit-or-get-off-pot.html].


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Onyx Oblivion

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Sep 9, 2008
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This man is a one man controversy machine. He should team up with Pachter, Kanye West, and Yahtzee to make the most controversial gaming statement of all time.
 

emeraldrafael

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Jul 17, 2010
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Does it bother anyone else that our "industry giants" cant agree amongst themselves on the whole are games art thing?
 

Quesa

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emeraldrafael said:
Does it bother anyone else that our "industry giants" cant agree amongst themselves on the whole are games are thing?
Most of the industry giants bother me on the whole.
 

gigastar

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Sep 13, 2010
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Wait, this coming from a guy whos reputed for making games that launch more blood [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Gorn] than Dead Space?

Nothings wrong with a little Scenery Porn. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SceneryPorn] And as far as i care, taking time to add an artistic touch wont hurt as long as the game is good too.
 

Rylot

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emeraldrafael said:
Does it bother anyone else that our "industry giants" cant agree amongst themselves on the whole are games are thing?
Not really, I'd be way more worried if they all agreed and started producing all games that were either 'art house' or simple hack and slash. This way we have more choice and options.
 

TheBadass

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Aug 27, 2008
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The title is inflammatory, and the summary even more so. It makes him out to seem far more unreasonable on the subject than he actually is. He is not dumping on 'art games'. One of his favourite titles is Flower. He's sumping on pretentious games, and there is a massive difference.
 

Jabberwock xeno

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Oct 30, 2009
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He has a point.

We are so worked up about games like portal and shadow of collusios that we miss the art that goes on in simple stuff like "super gore fighter 2 THE XTERME!".

If every movie is art, and every narrative is art, then every video game, stupid or not, IS ART.
 

Orcus The Ultimate

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Nov 22, 2009
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this guy's a moneymaking machine, so his opinion isn't worth much in my point of view, apart from a couple of points like the "traditional games" statement.
 

the.chad

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Nov 22, 2010
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Sure games can be art, but not all the time.

This guys whose most renowned work is God of War while being very fun, wouldn't get any awards on original gameplay or storytelling.

But movies are just the same! Who here went to see 300 or Snakes on a Plane because they thought it would be a definitive moment in movie history?
 

Jumplion

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Mar 10, 2008
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I'm just waiting for the two standard arguers to come along;

"Yeah! Games are about fun man! We don't need no stinkin' pretentious dickweed art games! We just want to blow shit up, who gives a crap about story, it's the game part of Video games, man! GO JAFFE!"

"Oh deary me! Games are more than just popping the willy-nillies off a gentleman's torso, they may be used to express a delightful array of artistic visions that no other electronic gizmomotron medium can accomplish! Tally off, I say!"

I think Jaffe is complaining about the "poser art" games, like those "pretentious" foreign language films in black and white with a bunch of "symbolic" stuff, though I have no idea what games could be classified as that.

Games are maturing, and we gain nothing by holding it back. What frustrates me is that so many people seem to think that "art" and "fun" must be kept separate from each other when they can be used simultaneously. It's difficult for sure, I don't think any developer has been able to balance "art/depth/meaning" with "fun/'splosions/entertaining" on a consistent basis. Also, "art games" doesn't have to mean pretentious of "incomprehensible", it can easily mean a game with a primary message, one that hopefully gets across well.
 

edthehyena

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Oct 26, 2009
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There's a difference between saying "games aren't art" and "these so-called art games suck and need to go away". I think LRR summed up what I think of when I hear "art game" in an ENN video a while back. This "artsy" crap is boring and detrimental.

What we are looking to prove is that real games can be art. A game doesn't have to be a snoozefest to be art. You can gun people down in a game that is also artistically expressive.
 

JourneyThroughHell

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Sep 21, 2009
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Onyx Oblivion said:
This man is a one man controversy machine. He should team up with Pachter, Kanye West, and Yahtzee to make the most controversial gaming statement of all time.
Wait, isn't all Pachter does is state obvious stuff?

emeraldrafael said:
Does it bother anyone else that our "industry giants" cant agree amongst themselves on the whole are games are thing?
Why should it? If they all agreed on everything, gaming would be booooring...

OT: Aww, David. Why do you have to follow up everything you say with swear words and alcohol, thus preventing people from actually taking stuff you say seriously?
 

Onyx Oblivion

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Sep 9, 2008
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JourneyThroughHell said:
Onyx Oblivion said:
This man is a one man controversy machine. He should team up with Pachter, Kanye West, and Yahtzee to make the most controversial gaming statement of all time.
Wait, isn't all Pachter does is state obvious stuff?
That's why it's controversial. Because it's so mind-numbingly stupid.
 

emeraldrafael

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Jul 17, 2010
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JourneyThroughHell said:
Why should it? If they all agreed on everything, gaming would be booooring...
I know, but its not so much that. Just that you have industry giants saying games are art and should be protected and treated as such, then guys who make highly successful games and have some kinda sway come out and basically that thats horse shit.

Doesnt provide a unified front sorta deal.
 

DackAttac

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Nov 12, 2009
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A strawman argument at its finest. Yeah, those elements are vapid on their own, and if not attached to a good game, and any accolades dumped on said smoke-and-mirror show would be misplaced. But he doesn't have the balls to call out a game that has any such merits and decry the acclaim as baloney.

This nameless archetype certainly can be described as troubling, but if he called, say, Heavy Rain bullshit?oh shit, then he has ACTUAL accolades he has to debunk and worse: fans who liked it who might call him out on it.
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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May 22, 2010
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Jumplion said:
I'm just waiting for the two standard arguers to come along;

"Yeah! Games are about fun man! We don't need no stinkin' pretentious dickweed art games! We just want to blow shit up, who gives a crap about story, it's the game part of Video games, man! GO JAFFE!"

"Oh deary me! Games are more than just popping the willy-nillies off a gentleman's torso, they may be used to express a delightful array of artistic visions that no other electronic gizmomotron medium can accomplish! Tally off, I say!"

I think Jaffe is complaining about the "poser art" games, like those "pretentious" foreign language films in black and white with a bunch of "symbolic" stuff, though I have no idea what games could be classified as that.

Games are maturing, and we gain nothing by holding it back. What frustrates me is that so many people seem to think that "art" and "fun" must be kept separate from each other when they can be used simultaneously. It's difficult for sure, I don't think any developer has been able to balance "art/depth/meaning" with "fun/'splosions/entertaining" on a consistent basis. Also, "art games" doesn't have to mean pretentious of "incomprehensible", it can easily mean a game with a primary message, one that hopefully gets across well.
Did you read the actual blog post, or just the article on The Escapist? Because Jaffe really is arguing that games are not art currently, and that we shouldn't be trying to make them something they're not. He admitted that he didn't know where the future would take us, and that it was conceivable that games would be seen as art 100 years from now, but he spent most of the time talking about games like mancala, chess, basketball, and the like -- games that exist as nothing more than entertainment, with no pretensions to story telling or artistic merit. His whole point was that in aping books and movies, games are ignoring what makes them unique -- interactivity, the ability to play a game. He's arguing exactly what I've been arguing every time the subject comes up, and it's really nice to see that someone in the industry agrees with me.