Well, as long as we don't actually have an external enemy, it's alri--- wait.emeraldrafael said:
Yeah, you might have something there.
Too Obvious = ControversialOnyx Oblivion said:
Mind = Explod'd
David Jaffe Dumps on "Art Games"
- Thread starter Andy Chalk
- Start date
Yeah, you might have something there.
Mind = Explod'd
You're right. Clearly a guy behind one of the most critically acclaimed series of the past decade hasn't got any idea about the use of games as a medium.Orcus_35 said:
Generic dickery aside, I have to admit I followed the link ready to get good and angry at this guy, but he does bring up some valid points. Games like say Portal and Shadow the Colossus (because one post mentioned them), I say are quite obviously art. For me, it's because they take the medium to a higher level. It doesn't feel like it could work in any other format. But there are a huge amount of games that aren't art and are merely pretentious and get labelled as art for being mildy edgy. I'm looking at stuff like Limbo and its ilk. Sure, they may be good games and have tons of style, but are they really great examples of artistic games? Could they not work as a cartoon or a simple youtube animation?
Then again, I like Moviebob's idea that all games are art because they were made by people and serve no real purpose, but make a statement anyway. It's just sorting out the good art from the microsoft paint.
I personally am not a big fan of the whole "games as art" thing. A lot of the so-called artistic games are really just platformers with extremely vague stories (you see this a lot on free game websites like Kongragate, where people will give a game 5/5 because they don't understand it). While there certainly are some games that deserve the label, a lot of the games called art don't really fit the definition.
I also don't understand why people think that games have to be considered art for them to get respect. Most sports aren't considered art, either, but that doesn't mean they're reviled.
I also don't understand why people think that games have to be considered art for them to get respect. Most sports aren't considered art, either, but that doesn't mean they're reviled.
One that he completely fails to aknowledge. His main idea seems to be 'games have been working like that for millenia, let's give up on trying to do anything different because if anything else would work people would have already figured it out'.TheBadass said:
I like how at the end of the blog post he throws some insane analogy, which puts his perception more in line with the group he doesn't identify with - namely, the one saying that a bunch of people from two thousand years ago were right and we might as well stop worrying about it.
His commentary would carry more weight if the industry was in fact shifting way from actually interesting gameplay to throw money at pretentious bullshit, when in fact they are shifting away from actually interesting gameplay to throw money at dirty modern 'realistic' FPS shooters. Between these two extremes the gaming industry somehow moves on. And anyway many people who started with 'art' games shifted back to focus on gameplay - look at Terry Cavanagh and the difference of statements between 'Don't Look Back' and 'VVVVVV'. I have a bigger grievance with big time studios that waste time shoving stories down the throats of titles that have no need for it - and I think he does too, he just somehow blames Braid for it.
What the hell is he arguing about, then? I did read the blog post, though his rambling, ranty nature made it hard for me to find out just what the hell he was talking about. From what I gathered, I thought he was talking about how "pretentious, arty" games are driving games away from "the real games" or whatever. I didn't see any mention of how games are looking at books/movies (though I think more games should take some queues from books with their rhetoric techniques, that has yet to be utilized).Owyn_Merrilin said:
And in any case, I stand by my initial point, my post was more directed generally rather than specifically at Jaffe.
Considering he made God of War (a glorified gore-fest to the tune of Simon Says), his opinion doesn't carry much weight with me anymore.
But lets humor the little shit's argument anyway:
What is your reasoning behind this Mr. Jaffe?
"Because I say so."
What an egotistical prick.
Besides, I wouldn't worry too much about his statement; he's arguing about games that aren't in his region of expertise or taste.
EDIT: How convenient. I made an update to compliment the update in his article, but the Escapist forums decided that it would rather reject that notion...and the notion of me posting for about 5 hours for no discernible reason thereafter.
His core/base article is the usual pretentious "I knows whats up because...I'm me."-argument.
His update provides more details and insights into his reasoning.
So, he just hates "pretentious" games.
Sure. I can agree with that, though it stems in part from my hatred of hype. Really, claiming that your game is "art" is akin to claiming "This game will blow you away."
However, sticking strictly to "pure games" is just as limiting to one's horizons as single-mindedly forcing the notion of "All games should strive to become art". Fact is, "art" is more about personal interpretation of material. From Jaffe's blog, the initial impression is that he would rather every game be about "Use weapons on bad dudes. Solve teh puzzles."
But lets humor the little shit's argument anyway:
They don't? I wasn't aware that mood, atmosphere, pacing, or theme didn't matter in gaming.David Jaffe said:
What is your reasoning behind this Mr. Jaffe?
"Because I say so."
What an egotistical prick.
Besides, I wouldn't worry too much about his statement; he's arguing about games that aren't in his region of expertise or taste.
EDIT: How convenient. I made an update to compliment the update in his article, but the Escapist forums decided that it would rather reject that notion...and the notion of me posting for about 5 hours for no discernible reason thereafter.
His core/base article is the usual pretentious "I knows whats up because...I'm me."-argument.
His update provides more details and insights into his reasoning.
So, he just hates "pretentious" games.
Sure. I can agree with that, though it stems in part from my hatred of hype. Really, claiming that your game is "art" is akin to claiming "This game will blow you away."
However, sticking strictly to "pure games" is just as limiting to one's horizons as single-mindedly forcing the notion of "All games should strive to become art". Fact is, "art" is more about personal interpretation of material. From Jaffe's blog, the initial impression is that he would rather every game be about "Use weapons on bad dudes. Solve teh puzzles."
Right. He's actually pretty close to dead on here; I'm perhaps a bit more urgent than him about the need for change in the games industry than he is, but that's a happy area of debate. His central point is solid: We need gaming journalists to call "art" games on their bluff. I'd have been a lot happier if Fahrenheit had been called on its weak story, cardboard thin characters and lack of imagination. I was delighted when vast swathes of the gaming media called BS on Modern Warfare 2's "No Russian" level. And, contrarily, I was delighted when at least a portion of the gaming media "got" Far Cry 2 and praised it... and even MORESO when Destructoid pinned down not only what it was trying to do, but how it failed [http://www.destructoid.com/heart-of-dimness-half-baked-nihilism-in-far-cry-2-127279.phtml].TheBadass said:
(Mind you, why couldn't that kind of top notch analysis be in the original review? One of the things that I wish, wish, wish we could stop doing is reviewing games as if they were software packages. But I digress.)
So yeah. Points to Jaffe. I don't like his games. And I think he's more content to wallow in what he calls "pure games" than I am. But he's dead on right here. Praise games that actually do advance the art, not those that throw on the trappings of art and say "Look at me! I'm art!"
Oh yes David Jaffe, poor poor mainstream games. If all these art games keep popping up the next Call of Duty, God of Wars, Gears of War, Halo etc. aren't going to sell any copies at all! Please. The problem with writing against a faux genre like "art games" is that that definiton is so broad, and so useless, that it can essentially mean anything...does a statement like that include Flower, or does it end at Yume Nikki? Is Braid an artsy bullshit and mirrors games?
The terms used in his article are so flimsy, and examples of the "smoke and mirrors gameplay crap" are never really given. So the article says a lot but at the same time it says nothing. Because most artistic games that I've played HAVE had excellent mechanics and narrative, maybe I'm not seeing his point because I haven't really played the "bad art games"
I hate how developers are now trying to cry "we aren't art yet" because that's even worse than a binary decision of whether a game "is" or "is not" art, instead they are almost implying that there's some sort of invisible bar that we have to fill before games truly become art, and that we are only maybe 32% there or something like that. Art is so subjective that trying to make decisions for other people on what art is, just comes off as silly and immature.
The terms used in his article are so flimsy, and examples of the "smoke and mirrors gameplay crap" are never really given. So the article says a lot but at the same time it says nothing. Because most artistic games that I've played HAVE had excellent mechanics and narrative, maybe I'm not seeing his point because I haven't really played the "bad art games"
I hate how developers are now trying to cry "we aren't art yet" because that's even worse than a binary decision of whether a game "is" or "is not" art, instead they are almost implying that there's some sort of invisible bar that we have to fill before games truly become art, and that we are only maybe 32% there or something like that. Art is so subjective that trying to make decisions for other people on what art is, just comes off as silly and immature.
This kind of surprises me, because in my opinion God of War actually IS a pretty artistic game. The sequels, not so much, but the original told a pretty powerful story filled with a lot of good symbolism. I'm kind of inclined to agree with Jaffe on some points. I think games that are artistic should still be fun, and some of them can be a bit pretentious. However, there is no game I've ever played where having artistic elements made it a worse game.
i'd tend to agree, nobody knows how to judge a game as a form of art. it doesn't necesarily means it's not, neither that it is, there's just no definition.UltimatheChosen said:
it reminds me of my philo classes with the example of marcel duchamp among other things...
Shovelware, because God of War and Twisted Metal are obviously crap shoveled out to make a buck...Metalhandkerchief said:
Ugh, does this guy have an opinion on freaking EVERYTHING?
Either way, it all depends on what you refer to as "art." Some would argue that Jaffe's God of War franchise is just as artistic as something like Shadow of the Colossus, just not as traditionally.
Either way, it all depends on what you refer to as "art." Some would argue that Jaffe's God of War franchise is just as artistic as something like Shadow of the Colossus, just not as traditionally.
This. He mostly seems to have an issue with games that say "I'm art. Look at me" instead of games that are artistic and have engaging gameplay.TheBadass said:
I like how he talks honestly and passionately about the issue. He comes across as someone who has a good idea of what can be realistically achieved and takes pride in his work. Much more pleasant to read than some devs who appear to have unrealistic views about potential and don't seem to take pride in much of what they are doing and who they are doing it for.
They also think that if a tv show doesn't air every week its a failure. And that the highest honor a Jpop band can get is if one of their songs is featured in an intro because their industry screws over musicians.Thrust said:
Japan is weird like that.
