David Jaffe Dumps on "Art Games"

RowdyRodimus

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Owyn_Merrilin said:
Metalhandkerchief said:
Lovely, another shovelware creator with opinions that makes me want to punch them in the face.
Shovelware, because God of War and Twisted Metal are obviously crap shoveled out to make a buck...
Please don't. You'll make him spit up his Pabst Blue Ribbon all over his Fixie and his neckbeard.

OT: Why do people care so much about who will make gaming's "Citizen Kane" (making me wonder how many asking this have even really watched the film) when we have trouble getting games with the depth of "Porky's".
 

Manchubot

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People said the same thing about film. Then film attracted a certain new artist named Andy Warhol and he made an 8 hour movie of just filming the Empire State Building and leaving the camera there rolling... New artists can be horrifying.
 

SturmDolch

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May 17, 2009
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TheBadass said:
The title is inflammatory, and the summary even more so. It makes him out to seem far more unreasonable on the subject than he actually is. He is not dumping on 'art games'. One of his favourite titles is Flower. He's sumping on pretentious games, and there is a massive difference.

Thanks for posting that. I was about to come in here and say, "Well, can't David Jaffe just fuck off and play his brainless yuk yuk games?" but it turns out that's not actually what he meant. Pretentious games piss me off, too. It was my only gripe about Braid.

The title of this article is the kind of sensationalist crap I'd expect more from Fox News that The Escapist.
 

funguy2121

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emeraldrafael said:
Does it bother anyone else that our "industry giants" cant agree amongst themselves on the whole are games art thing?
No, not at all. We need diversity, not homogeny. I had a friendly debate on here the other day with a guy who thought that gameplay isn't necessarily as important as story and presentation. I told him that for me gameplay is absolutely king but I also said that without opinions like his the medium would never be elevated to the same level of respect as movies or good tv shows.

Depending on what games he's referring to, I may well agree with him. If he's talking about Dante's Inferno, I couldn't agree more. If he's talking about Heavy Rain, screw him.
 

cystemic

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the way they were trying to make Kratos chase around some bullshit in the dark at the end of 3 wasnt artistic? he couldnt have just bashed the crap out of zeus with the overly long realization that he's been slaughtering people for 3 games? i am confuse
 

teknoarcanist

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Gotta say I agree with him. He's not dissing your art form. He's not saying his kind of games are the best kind of games. He's just saying trumpeting your game as a forward-thinking aesthetic immersion simulator -- when actually it's just a shitty platformer with a physics engine, set to trance techno -- is pretentious bullshit.
 

captaincabbage

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Onyx Oblivion said:
This man is a one man controversy machine. He should team up with Pachter, Kanye West, and Yahtzee to make the most controversial gaming statement of all time.
And they would all be lead by Bobby Kotick. XD

OT: Just ignore him people. What he's saying is essentially the same as saying that arthouse movies are damaging the film industry.
 

Viik

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Agree with Jaffe. Industry is already loosing complexity of game mechanics due desire to mass-appeal. Take into considiration that resources are limited. So, if you want more "arty" games, be ready to market flood with Heavy Rain 2-3-4-5 and so on, more The Path "games", more scripted FPS shooters (or rather FPS interactive movies). How about "arty" implementation of Dirt4 - 2 hours of arcade racing and 12 hours of background cut scenes with pilots relationship dramma?
Do you realise that industry can't just add MOOOAR stuff? You need to loose some titles or even whole genre to raise new one. Who will be funding next "The Settlers" game if public wants more of deeply artistic product that would try to teach people something that movies or books already failed to do?

I'm not against art, I'm against loosing experience and knowledge of game design and game mechanics because of the attention shift to stories and "deep meaning".
 

Vrach

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I think he's just pissed because everyone instantly takes a shot at GoW titles whenever they talk about what games can be (and consequently what they can be more than). See the recent video from the Destructoid dude (Extra Credits linked it in their last episode).

I can't be arsed reading his entire article. It doesn't sound that interesting and it certainly sounds biased because he's basically saying "you're taking the spotlight/respect/money away from me - whaaa". I do agree creating a game for artistic expression and nothing else is in no way completely superior to creating a decent... let's call it regular game. They're just two things that can co-exist and should both be made, because there's demand for both.

On a personal note, I'm not a fan of pushing art for art. If you're going at it thinking "I want an artsy fartsy game", that's not a fantastic goal in my eyes. I think it's much better for the design process that you set the goals of your game and then simply fulfill them in the manner that makes a game have artistic value. To put it simply, I prefer art being the means, not the end as I find it more meaningful and impressive that way.
 

DustyDrB

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Jan 19, 2010
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I don't see the controversy here. He's not really saying much beyond the obvious. Yes, a game can't get by just on atmosphere or just by trying to address a mature issue. I think most people would agree.

Maybe he should just come right out and name the game he has in mind.
 

Dogstile

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RandallJohn said:
Ugh, does this guy have an opinion on freaking EVERYTHING?
Erm, yeah. Just like you or me do. Second someone asks you about something, you form an opinion, its how we're wired.

OT:

Agreed with the man. "Art" games nowadays aren't art, they're just boring.
 

Casual Shinji

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Jul 18, 2009
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Whether games are art is besides the point here.

Jaffe seems to argue that we shouldn't praise games that take a different approach or that try to set themselves apart from the mainstream. The reason why we praise these games and put them in the spotlight is because no one else does. Mainstream games get more than enough exposition through markting, and enough recognition through other game studios trying to copy it.

And seriously, name me one highly praised "artsy" game that has ever been copied due to it's succes? Those games tend to crash and burn sales wise, you know. Even the highly praised ones.

I'm honestly getting a little tired of Jaffe's lip. He hasn't made a good game since God of War, yet he's constantly on his soapbox like he knows how the industry should be.
 

SenorNemo

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Mar 14, 2011
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Well, when I started reading that blog, it was light out. Now I look up, and all of a sudden it's pitch black. Fascinating. He has a lot of interesting opinions - some better supported and explored than others, albeit - so I'm not sure where I'd begin if I were to write a full response. That's not to mention all the stuff that's been said here...

Anyway, I think we pretty much all agree that many (probably most) games touted as "art games" aren't anything of the sort, and that the culture surrounding them creates an atmosphere ultimately harmful to game developers. However, it sounds almost like he's saying games aren't art, making games art isn't a worthwhile endeavor, but it may somehow be "different" in x number of years. This sounds almost like a Catch 22; by that logic, games can never be art because they can never be allowed to develop that way. I don't think that's quite what he's saying (I dearly hope that's not what he's saying at least), because his underlying theme seems to be that game designers don't seem to be aware that they're making games, and aren't exploring the inherent qualities in the medium: he implies there is room for development as a medium.

However, I think he lost his connection to his own argument for a bit when he bashed the people claiming "games are in their infancy, you'll see, we'll develop into a respectable medium." Now, if he were just claiming that the people who say these things in relation to "art games" are off their rockers, it'd be fine, but he goes on to claim the need to have games validated as an art form stems from insecurity. It may be true to some extent or another, based on the person, but for almost all of them - including some of the ones who'd defend "art games" - would say they see what he sees: a genre with potential that's badly in need of development, possibly one that's headed in the wrong direction. He also makes the mistake of attributing a single attitude to a group very diverse in opinions when he describes proponents of games as art as "hell bent on convincing the world that GAMES. DO. MATTER."

In a lot of ways, this seems almost a direct response to The Escapist's very own Extra Credits. I kind of hope they'll respond to this in some way.

I think he also makes a misstep in discounting atmosphere as being a component of what could make games art. While I don't think atmosphere alone makes a game art, it can likely do wonders to enhance a game that already understands its own medium. In other words, atmosphere can't make a bad game artistic, but it can help make an artistic game a masterpiece.

He also really needs to stop using all caps. I felt like I was reading a long, unusually lucid youtube comment...


On a tangent, there seem to be some games that do at least partially meet his criteria. Mass Effect, for instance, on the surface is a game that exists for the story. To some extent, this is true. In some spots, it's "cinematic," mimicking movies in exactly the way he decries. However, I'd argue that the success of games like Mass Effect isn't reliant on the fact that you spend many hours interacting and getting to know the characters interactively, discovering things about the galaxy through its exploration. It's a triumph of the adage "show don't tell." So yes, it tells a hollywood scifi story, but the empowering force behind it isn't cinematography or narrative in the sense of a movie narrative, it's the interactivity of the genre.

Of course, Mass Effect still has a pretty wide gulf between gameplay mechanics and atmosphere; I'm not claiming it's quite art, but it has the right idea, and I don't see it or games like it mentioned much in debates like this.


Oh, and hi everybody!
 

SelectivelyEvil13

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I can see his point as I truly do not care about a game as "art." I care whether or not it's any fun to play. Sure, some people may claim that Game X that I happen to be playing is "art," hell, I may even think the game is art. But what is most important to me is that the game gives me any enjoyment and reason to bother playing in the first place.

Art is subjective, so I do not see why trying to prove that something is in fact art is even worth the time when inevitably someone will disagree. This leads to the question of how does one even prove what constitutes as art beyond the Oxford Dictionary's definition.

Movies are another great example because not every movie is viewed as art, but I guarantee that someone out there thinks that Disaster Movie was fan-tastic! and by their standards "art." Yet again with movies, I would prioritize a film's merit for entertainment because that is ultimately why it is around in the first place.

I do happen to find God of War to be artistic, but what draws me to it in the first place is the excellent gameplay and overarching elements involved. Any "art factor" is the byproduct of game's successful points.
 

Nerdnumber1

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Art does not need to strip away fun games and, in fact, likely never will. Look at some other artistic mediums. Take cinema: how many action-packed thrill-rides with more attention placed on special effects than plot come out for every artsy drama? How many ear-splitting rap or tone-deaf popstar tops the charts (or at least gets a following) for every musical masterpiece? How many bad comics are there for every "graphic novel?" There will always be critics that point out the artistic merits of certain works that focus on that realm, but there will always be demand for less refined tastes or just plain, mindless fun!

Art is risky though, as it targets a certain tastes and there is always the chance that things just don't work. Tried and true game genres don't have to fear extinction as they are the least risky. Idealy, one could make a game that is both fun and has a complex, deep, artistic story. The only problem is that explosions and violence seem to be safer investments than writing, so budget gets allocated accordingly.
 

StriderShinryu

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Hmmm.. let's go back a couple years, shall we?

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http://www.1up.com/news/david-jaffe-psp-god-war

"What's keeping Jaffe busy these days, however, concerns the PSP game he's working on. While other designers have used handhelds as a means of exploring some of their simpler game ideas, Jaffe isn't holding his ambition back - he wants to make you cry. "The end goal is that players at the end of the game are actually choked up - if not crying - because we've done our job so well," he says."

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Well, I'll be... if I'm reading that wrong, and I certainly must be given Jaffe's apparent view on things, I'd say that sounds pretty pretentious and arty just for the sake of being arty.