Demonization of Moviebob and other Escapist Staff
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Well, you're right. Those damn... wait, who they are? Oh yes, they are anonymous using throwaway accounts and internet personalities. So, how exactly do you think people can throw them out other than saying that what they are doing is not right and that we do not support those actions? And people have already done that.BreakfastMan said:
For the love of god do yourself a favour and just don't bother you have nothing to gain by learning about this whole shit-flinging competition just run away and never look back, trust me.Pieturli said:
Actually I wasn't referring to the harassment thing, which I think Tito did a fantastic job reporting.thethird0611 said:
I was talking about what sparked this whole fiasco, the ridiculousness over Quinn's ex and his rants and whatnot. The fact that people ever actually gave that the time of day when the facts were clearly against him, and it was no ones business anyway (and the facts were against him!) is ridiculous.
So I have trouble with the whole "We're just fighting for journalistic integrity!" shtick when this whole movement was started on lies and slander. Or is it libel? Print is libel so it's probably libel.
I mean really. If you truly believe in journalistic integrity, you'd either listen to the folks who are saying this movement is ridiculous, or (more likely) you never would have joined the movement to begin with.
This.dragonswarrior said:
I can respect and enjoy a journalist's opinions without having to agree with them 100% of the time. I can also watch a documentary that I don't personally agree with or see someone post something stupid online without wanting to make death threats against them IRL, or attempt to drive them out of their job.
I think this whole event has really brought to like the deeply nasty undercurrent that is still present in online communities.
people need to manage their anger, grow up and have proportionate reactions to the things that irk them.
Well considering Bob's tirades on twitter forced The Escapist to temporarily remove their twitter feed from the front page and then institute new policies regarding what people posted to be able to appear in that feed I'd say there's plenty of space to have a conversation about conduct and consequences of it.
Of course everyone just turns that into shouting.
Of course everyone just turns that into shouting.
I didn't vote in that poll about whether or not Bob should be fired, but I do think that his conduct throughout the peak of the Quinn shitstorm was all kinds of unprofessional. It's good that he came around on that later in that ''A Long Post About #GamerGate'' post on his blog but I have my objections about that as well, I particularly feel that he's in no position to play the ''We did what we had to do"-card in regards to opposing Jack Thompson. Fact is that Thompson ALSO received death threats and harassment for voicing his objections with gaming.
Where was the outrage from Bob (and by extension, the gaming press) when Jack Thompson was targeted by the worst elements of the gaming community? That was, if nothing else, a time to make a stand and draw some lines in the sand as to how you do and don't adress criticism towards gaming. I suspect that the gaming media's failure to do so set a precedent for this current mess.
Where was the outrage from Bob (and by extension, the gaming press) when Jack Thompson was targeted by the worst elements of the gaming community? That was, if nothing else, a time to make a stand and draw some lines in the sand as to how you do and don't adress criticism towards gaming. I suspect that the gaming media's failure to do so set a precedent for this current mess.
I'm extremely liberal and I consider myself a feminist. I fully support Anita Sarkeesian's right to make videos and I am hopeful that someday she will engage in debate around their content.Tanis said:
However, I am quite upset at what appears to be blatant cronyism in the press and indie scene along with the misuse of editorial power to manipulate the readership. I'll give you a very good example of why I am with #GamerGate
Everyone by now knows Zoe Quinn. I won't go into some of the more spurious rumors here, I'll just state facts:
Zoe Quinn approached various contacts in the media about wanting to start a game jam. These people were all people who knew her personally, or knew her friend Maya Felix Kramer. This game jam was not only reported by the press, but it was editorialized as something their readers should give money to.
Now, I want to remind people of a few facts:
1) Zoe Quinn is/was at that time a nobody. In fact, any notoriety she had was due to the same press contacts promoting her game jam.
2) She had never run a game jam or any other public event before.
3) It had no venue, no start date, no schedule, no board, no guests, no media packets, no assets at all.
4) The donations that people were asked to give went direct into her paypal account.
Now, I want to make something clear here. I do not think that Zoe Quinn was trying to defraud people. However, I find it very difficult to imagine that an unbiased press would have so widely promoted and editorialized a game jam under those circumstances. Certainly if any other developer of similar reknown had approached them who wasn't their buddy, then it would never have seen print, let alone using their editorial power to promote that their readership hand over their hard earned dollars.
This is just one example of many examples about what is editorial decision that I find troublesome since it appears to be influenced by nepotism. I could literally list off a dozen more incidents of similar suspicious nature, so while it's easy to dismiss 1 or 2 instances as perhaps poor judgement, it's hard to dismiss a dozen or more from the same group of people.
Certain people in the media are painting this as a left vs right fight, when really it's not. There are some people who are opposed to the editorializing around social justice in the press and it's general unbalanced view, but I'm not one of them. Most people are merely upset that they feel the press cannot be trusted, and then that feeling got blown up to a huge bonfire when the press's response to being called on the carpet was to basically call all gamers dead. I've said it before - if this was a kitchen fire, then Leigh Alexander and her friends tried to put it out with kerosene and now everyone is dragging through the mud.
I just want to add - I don't think that nepotism indicates "corruption" for financial gain. I think it just means in this case, bias, and people using contacts and friends to advance their careers. I think this is relatively normal in most businesses, the problem is that part of being in the press is that you need to have the trust of your readers and there just hasn't been enough transparency for many people, myself "super liberal" included.
So, please don't paint this as a left vs. right debate. There are going to be people on both sides who have a pure social agenda, but most of us really just want disclosure, an end to nepotism and more editorial restraint (No more incidents of Patricia Hernandez promoting her girlfriends game as if she's being objective for instance).
As far as The Escapist contributors go, I'll say this:
As a veteran of the US military, when Moviebob compares gamers to a bunch of radical religious terrorists and then agrees with the sentiment that said terrorists are morally better than gamers...yeah, that hits a nerve with me. It further unnerves me when I'm told that to criticize those remarks is to be dehumanized to the point where liquid feces has more moral standing than I do. As for calling for his resignation or firing? Such is not my decision to make. What is my decision to make, is to ignore his videos, ignore everything associated with him and to inform other people to do the same by presenting my point of view of Moviebob's attitude and associations rationally. I cannot take away the fact that he is a damn good movie critic, at times; he's earned that through his own merits, and I do not ever aim to take that away from him.
Jim Sterling, on the other hand, is a guy I've come to know as a usually intelligent and agreeable human being. His Jimquisition persona is rather enjoyable and the points and opinion he puts forth are ones that I can reason with, even if I do not agree with some of the things he argues. That's just our human nature, I suppose. The only thing that I have against the man is the indirect involvement he has in the whole Wizardchan debacle from before. Now, I know that Archon has specifically stated that an apology to them is forthcoming, and I'm glad that will be addressed, but I feel that Jim should be the one to apologize for that. I understand that he wishes to remain neutral through all of this, and part of me can resonate with that feeling, but now with the revelations that Indiecade and the IGF were probably one big racketeering scheme, I no longer wish to be neutral.
In short, I will let my actions do the future talking. I will continue to give Jim my relevance by giving him my views and clicks, while I will now ignore Moviebob until such a time comes where his position changes to a more amicable stance in my eyes, though I am well aware such a time my never come.
As a veteran of the US military, when Moviebob compares gamers to a bunch of radical religious terrorists and then agrees with the sentiment that said terrorists are morally better than gamers...yeah, that hits a nerve with me. It further unnerves me when I'm told that to criticize those remarks is to be dehumanized to the point where liquid feces has more moral standing than I do. As for calling for his resignation or firing? Such is not my decision to make. What is my decision to make, is to ignore his videos, ignore everything associated with him and to inform other people to do the same by presenting my point of view of Moviebob's attitude and associations rationally. I cannot take away the fact that he is a damn good movie critic, at times; he's earned that through his own merits, and I do not ever aim to take that away from him.
Jim Sterling, on the other hand, is a guy I've come to know as a usually intelligent and agreeable human being. His Jimquisition persona is rather enjoyable and the points and opinion he puts forth are ones that I can reason with, even if I do not agree with some of the things he argues. That's just our human nature, I suppose. The only thing that I have against the man is the indirect involvement he has in the whole Wizardchan debacle from before. Now, I know that Archon has specifically stated that an apology to them is forthcoming, and I'm glad that will be addressed, but I feel that Jim should be the one to apologize for that. I understand that he wishes to remain neutral through all of this, and part of me can resonate with that feeling, but now with the revelations that Indiecade and the IGF were probably one big racketeering scheme, I no longer wish to be neutral.
In short, I will let my actions do the future talking. I will continue to give Jim my relevance by giving him my views and clicks, while I will now ignore Moviebob until such a time comes where his position changes to a more amicable stance in my eyes, though I am well aware such a time my never come.
It doesn't matter if MovieBob is hated or liked, as long as it's one or the other for the majority of this site's visitors. The guy brings in clicks, and clicks bring money. The only reason they would have to cut him loose would be if he fades
into irrelevancy or causes a major PR issue. Judging from the comments in various forums, I'd say the man will be holding on to this job a while longer.
into irrelevancy or causes a major PR issue. Judging from the comments in various forums, I'd say the man will be holding on to this job a while longer.
Add to that Matt Lee, but given Tito's failure grasp reality and how to actually do his job (and before anyone says anything I'm going on Tito's reply detailing his failure to fact check anything and push an agenda if he thinks it's good, before okaying a story), which resulted in the Escapist being drawn into this debacle I'm not surprised either of them are still there. Frankly the way both Chipman and Lee acted, in any other industry they would have been fired for bringing the company's name into disrepute.Spambot 3000 said:
The fact that the Parent Company had to step in to sort this mess out speaks volumes, of what looks likes incompetence, has caused things to get out of control.
And while people say it brings in click, true, but you're not earning anything when they're ad-blocking you.
I don't think Bob should be fired but its not Demonization when he really IS being extremely unprofessional and petty on Twitter. Bob is a professional or at least semi professional in his work on the Escapist and when he willingly acts as irrational and unprofessional as possible then he deserves to be called out on it.
Moviebob has shown he can be better then this, why isn't he showing it now?
Moviebob has shown he can be better then this, why isn't he showing it now?
Actually, the facts were 100% with Zoe's ex. He provided proof, timelines, and full information on almost everything he talked about. Not only that but we can see that Zoe was mentally abusive to him, and in her own terms, she 'raped him'.dragonswarrior said:
Go actually ready the whole thing. It is quite interesting, and not a single thing has been denied by any of the parties, either.
I dont know why you 'This'ed her post. She once again spread lies.Starbird said:
You can enjoy an editorial if you want, but there is a difference between an opinion piece, and news. That is what #gamergate wants, unbiased news.
Not only did Zoe's ex have proof of everything he said, and funny enjoy, by Zoe's definition, she 'raped' him, but Zoe has been continuously lieing this whole time. Her Dox was fake, the Wizardchan harassment was fake, and its quite a reasonable thing to bet that the death threats she supposedly said happen, were fake. Just to piggy back on that to, Anita's look to also be fake.
I think this whole event has really brought to like the deeply nasty undercurrent that is still present in online journalist.
While I agree with you, this particular thing has always bugged me. The general idea was that the doxx released the first time were fake (that is to say, they had absolutely nothing to do with her irl). While I wouldn't put it past her to release them herself, the fact that they're fake isn't proof of anything, except that she was smart enough to have fake doxx.thethird0611 said:
Which kinda falls into the 'basic internet security measures' category.
It is important to keep that fact in mind when other 'I am being Harassed' post come into play. Not only that, but you can pair it with the fake harassment from Wizardchan.Jack T. Pumpkin said:
Its like the old story of the Boy who Cried Wolf.
While I find some of the things Bob has done during the course of this debacle to be deplorable, I'm firmly in the camp that voted No in a heartbeat.
I disagree with Bob on a lot of political things, but at the end of the day I think he's good at what he does. He said some harsh things, he has later apologized for them, and at most should maybe get a "slap on the wrist" so to speak. 0,02$.
I disagree with Bob on a lot of political things, but at the end of the day I think he's good at what he does. He said some harsh things, he has later apologized for them, and at most should maybe get a "slap on the wrist" so to speak. 0,02$.
When it comes to social issues, MovieBob is as intolerant as extreme "liberals" can get. His review of the Ender's Game and his hatred toward Orson Scott Card for his views on marriage was sickening to say the least.
I'm not arguing that we should've taken her claims of being doxxed at face value or anything like that. Simply that the initial doxx not being related to her RL only proved (if anything) that she took basic precautions.thethird0611 said: