Deus Ex - Boss Fights

[WaysideMaze]

I disagree, as somebody who focused on stealth/hacking I say invisibility helps in no way during the boss encounters, furthermore EMP/gas/electroshiz is not that helpful against a lady with infinite invisibility/ammo/typhoon and enough health to survive three clips of Armour peirceing pistol rounds to the noggin. You seem to only be remembering the first encounter and assuming you possess typhoon or electrical defense which is a bit of a leap considering at least half the players wont have such things by the first two boss encounters.

Disagree all you like, this is based on empirical evidence not opinion. The second boss fight is absolutely doable without electric protection (to be fair I had a lot of painkillers and health items but it WAS the hardest difficulty) as there's ammo and weapons in all the lockers around that room, and the typhoon is... well, cheating. It is also absolutely possible to get all the hacking augs before that (except Fortify which I never used) and have more than enough left over for Icarus, Jump boost AND the typhoon. This is in addition to the inventory enhancement and various other augs.

You're gonna be shocked here, but I actually agree with you xD

I finished off the second boss without electric shielding and no other combat augs (I got them later because this boss fight did fuck me up so much).

I never used the typhoon in the game anyway.

 

[TheDooD]

You really don't need those augs. At no point in the game are you ever forced to get augs unless you REALLY want to restrict yourself somehow.

I disagree. The rediculous boss fights forced me to drop points into combat because my stealth setup was woefully inadequate to deal with them.

Combat was the only way to deal with the bosses. At no other point in the game was this the case, there was always another route, you just had to find it.

You can run a stealth setup all you need is the Typhoon and abuse the shit out of it. It stuns bosses long enough to so you can spam it, it rips through walls, robots, and goons like they wasn't their in the first place.

OK....the typhoon, an explosive device that blows up everything around you, is hardly part of a stealth setup is it?

Besides that, you're missing the problem. The problem isn't with the difficulty, but with the nature of the boss fights themselves.

The only approach to the boss fights was combat. There was no hack, stealth or social completion mechanic. Only combat. Considering the rest of the game offered you multiple ways to complete your path, offering solely combat was a major issue.

Since the boss fight basically take away all options to be stealthy it works. It's better to have 3-4 explosions and less then 5min you win the fight. Compared to and completely full on fire fight which could earn you a few restarts. Plus the bosses wouldn't even care about your opinion we all know how they fucked up the lab with like zero remorse for anything. These guys aren't around for talking they're here to fuck shit up. Yea the battles are pretty damn bland when you know you can abuse one thing or the Typhoon.

 

[Paragon Fury]

1: You come out of the shadows in pretty much every case because these are people Jensen wants to confront face-to-face or because they need to die. While its true you play the game the way you want to play, the story is about Jensen, and Jensen has some issues that need to be settled with people face-to-face.

2: No, there is no "wrong" way to play the game. I played through the first time on the hardest difficulty with a non-combat character and and didn't have to do anything other than do a few interesting tranqs/tazes on my quest to nick eveyone's stuff and read all their e-mail.

Gunplay characters won't get to see a lot of the extras, finish some quests and will have a lot harder of a time if they're not really good at shooting and predicting enemy moves on higher difficulties. Its about how you want to do it, not what you get to do.

3: As I posted here on the Escapist, the boss fights are cheese easy even on the hardest difficulty for a non-combat character. Two of them literally takes like seconds to win.

4: Because context-sensitive dialogue is really hard to do and generally not worth the time.

5: Admit-tingly, the boss fights are a lot more charged if you read the book "Icarus Effect" like I did before the game came out; then you know exactly who and what the bosses are about and why they must not only die, but why you should take pleasure in doing it.

 

[WaysideMaze]

Since the boss fight basically take away all options to be stealthy it works. It's better to have 3-4 explosions and less then 5min you win the fight. Compared to and completely full on fire fight which could earn you a few restarts. Plus the bosses wouldn't even care about your opinion we all know how they fucked up the lab with like zero remorse for anything. These guys aren't around for talking they're here to fuck shit up. Yea the battles are pretty damn bland when you know you can abuse one thing or the Typhoon.

I'm not arguing the effectiveness of the typhoon system. It seems to be universally agreed to be the best method.

Its the lack of a stealth/hacker option that is the problem.

It wouldn't have been difficult to allow us to hack a robot or sneak past them. Instead the only way forward is to stumble into the room like an idiot and try to out gun them.

 

[WaysideMaze]

You're gonna be shocked here, but I actually agree with you xD

What people usually do is they stick to their guns, get defensive and bring in any argument they can figure to prove me wrong. So eventually the conversation degrades into a series of me saying "like I said" and "yes, I wasn't talking about that".
I'm at least relieved that didn't happen.

Haha same.
besides you made a good point there. You don't need specific augs to beat the bosses, but they do come in handy.

 

[nyysjan]

1: You come out of the shadows in pretty much every case because these are people Jensen wants to confront face-to-face or because they need to die. While its true you play the game the way you want to play, the story is about Jensen, and Jensen has some issues that need to be settled with people face-to-face.

2: No, there is no "wrong" way to play the game. I played through the first time on the hardest difficulty with a non-combat character and and didn't have to do anything other than do a few interesting tranqs/tazes on my quest to nick eveyone's stuff and read all their e-mail.

Gunplay characters won't get to see a lot of the extras, finish some quests and will have a lot harder of a time if they're not really good at shooting and predicting enemy moves on higher difficulties. Its about how you want to do it, not what you get to do.

3: As I posted here on the Escapist, the boss fights are cheese easy even on the hardest difficulty for a non-combat character. Two of them literally takes like seconds to win.

4: Because context-sensitive dialogue is really hard to do and generally not worth the time.

5: Admit-tingly, the boss fights are a lot more charged if you read the book "Icarus Effect" like I did before the game came out; then you know exactly who and what the bosses are about and why they must not only die, but why you should take pleasure in doing it.

1. I have no reason to confront them openly, as i have no idea who these people are (and even if i did, i would want to be the one ambushing them instead of other way around).
And even if i did, outside of the TYM building cutscene and final bossfight, i did not even know they were there.

2. True, however, there is a way that is more "right" than the others, as it gives you the most rewards for the least effort (stealth/hack/takedown)

3. I agree that the bossfights are easy, even at "Give me Deus Ex", wich is really a case against them instead of other way around.

4. Well, if they did not want to take the time, or have the skill, for context sensitive dialogue (and seriously, how hard is it to make some extra lines for voice actors to say and put in a flag that trickers them if some random action has or has not been taken), then maybe they should have made prequel for some other game than the game widely considered one of, if not the, best computer game ever made.

5. Never read the "Icarus Effect", possibly never will, and why the hell should i, or anyone else, shell out money for a book in order to get any characterication out of the "bosses" in the game i already paid for?

 

[HK_01]

Osweetmotherofgod! Shamus! You're back! I was worried that you had left the Escapist for good and I had somehow missed the news (and was unable to find anything about it by using the search bar). So glad you're back, I always enjoy your articles (well, the ones I've read) and all the other stuff you do. I hope your contributions will be back to regular now.

 

[TheDooD]

Since the boss fight basically take away all options to be stealthy it works. It's better to have 3-4 explosions and less then 5min you win the fight. Compared to and completely full on fire fight which could earn you a few restarts. Plus the bosses wouldn't even care about your opinion we all know how they fucked up the lab with like zero remorse for anything. These guys aren't around for talking they're here to fuck shit up. Yea the battles are pretty damn bland when you know you can abuse one thing or the Typhoon.

I'm not arguing the effectiveness of the typhoon system. It seems to be universally agreed to be the best method.

Its the lack of a stealth/hacker option that is the problem.

It wouldn't have been difficult to allow us to hack a robot or sneak past them. Instead the only way forward is to stumble into the room like an idiot and try to out gun them.

It kinda the way a boss battle is suppose to be like. Unless you want the bosses roam around the stage and you can run into at random times but even then its gonna end up being a fire fight a majority of the time. Unless you really avoid being seen. If its gonna be that way then its gonna be really hard for new players because they're gonna be walking down a hall and suddenly they're face to face w/ a boss and have to fight. They won't know where all the ducts are or they should check the camera to check what room the bosses are patrolling at the moment. Plus you kinda have to kill these guys yeah the really don't have a backstory in game but still you can't let these guys live. It'll be like you sneak pass one boss and finish a mission you'll have to worry about him later on so its better to just take'em out soon then later.

 

[Adam Jensen_v1legacy]

My guess is, next Deus Ex game will have a different approach to boss fights, or no boss fights at all. Also, the ending will be better. Because those are the only 2 negative things people can say about the game. Eidos has an almost perfect formula for the game. All they need to do is improve those aspects of the game that no one liked.

 

[mbourgon]

I love (and loathe) the quote from Paul K. with Grid.

"I'm a shooter guy[...] not knowing much about the Deus Ex world".
Um, yeah. Then not really a "shooter" guy, are you?
Amazed how much effort he goes into on the Youtube video, and the sad part is there's energy, expectations, and desire - but he didn't bother to do basic research about the game. Dude, there's two of them. Not that hard to figure out.

Next up: Paul wonders what this "Quake" thing is.

 

[snfonseka]

Looks like somebody have tried to kill bosses without explosives or grenades. In case you haven't noticed those EMP grenades, plastic explosives can give a lot of advantage if you are playing a stealth, hacker playthrough . I killed the first boss with a single EMP grenade, two plastic explosives and few combat rifle ammo (to his head) in normal difficulty; within few seconds. I don't know what's wrong about these people who taking about it is difficult to kill those bosses. There are plenty of ways to kill them, besides what's the meaning about calling them "bosses" if you can easily kill them as others.

 

[nyysjan]

My guess is, next Deus Ex game will have a different approach to boss fights, or no boss fights at all. Also, the ending will be better. Because those are the only 2 negative things people can say about the game. Eidos has an almost perfect formula for the game. All they need to do is improve those aspects of the game that no one liked.

There is plenty of negative things outside of ending and boss fights that people can, and do, say about DX:HR.

Flat characters, shallow story, lack of meaningful choices, the choices you do make get almost no mention in the game, tunnel like maps, stealth/nonlethal/takedown playstyle gives too much rewards when compared to other playstyles, Megan Reed, bugs, lack of challenge, no melee weapons, takedowns, etc...

 

[maetros]

Completely agree with the "great game, but boss fights" comments. What annoys me is that all the problems that Shamus brings up could've been avoided if they would've given you the backstory of those characters. Backstory means you know their name before the fight, means that you could, for example, pay someone in the LIMB clinic that they use to mess up Barret's minigun aug, forcing him to switch to a backup pistol. That would still keep it a combat scenario, eliminate the need to account for player's augs, and make the fight easier for non-combat characters. Same thing with Fedorova's camo. Also that would explain why Jensen just walks in on a boss - they don't know they've been tampered with, he does. Problem solved. All because you decided to flesh out boss characters.

 

[WarpZone]

Okay so how do we fix it? That is, how do we make a mod for the PC version that cuts out the boss fights and their cinematic altogether, skipping straight to the "boss defeated" cinematic the moment you enter the room via any available means?

50 bucks says it'll be the most downloaded mod evar.

With luck they'll release a patch removing the bosses from the Xbox 360 and PSX versions of the game.

Then never outsource anything to that company ever again.

Then not even bother putting bosses in their next game if they're not going to do it right.

I'm not bitter.

 

[Ubermetalhed]

The boss fights aren't that hard if you think about it properly. They are the weakest part of arguably the best game to come out this year and on the whole aren't really that detrimental.

Also the game takes alot of pointers from the Metal Gear Solid (foxiest of the hounds achievement anyone?) series not only with its stealth mechanics but also in its forced boss fights. I have no problem with this being a big fan of MGS.

Indeed it does, however the bosses in Deus Ex are only inspired by the "fighting" part, and nothing else. None of the characterization is there, they're just stronger enemies you're forced to fight.

Going to use MGS3 as an example, since it's my favorite.

Would you're showdown with The Boss be as amazing as it was if you were told nothing about who she is or the history she has? Would the revolver duel with Ocelot be as tense if you didn't know anything about him? The same with Volgin, Fear, Fury, Sorrow, End, and Pain.

I'm pretty sure most people would have been just fine with forced boss fights if the bosses were actually characterized, and made it feel like you're fighting a person instead of just another boss for good reasons other than "just fight because it's a boss".

I completely agree the lack of characterisation are the weakest parts to the boss encounters.

However I guess, the characterisation of the bosses in MGS is rather theatrical. The bosses in DE:HR are just mercs hired to do a job, arguably thats a more realistic scenario and is more appopriate to the game. I mean do all bosses need to be comic book villains who explain all their motivations to the player? Does Adam really need to get to know these guys on an emotional level before he fights them?

Although I'm offering a defence to the lack of characterisation, I do think that it would have been nice to see, even if it was just through ebooks dotted around discussing them or like after defeating the beautys in MGS4 you received a message from Pritchard talking about them much like Drebin does.

I do think the developers needed another couple of months or so on the game, as there are alot of things that seem slightly incomplete or missing at times. Perhaps with an extra time the bosses would have got more thought, I'm just happy the majority of the game is so beautifully crafted and hence I feel the boss battles are a minor blip on a game which is absolutely fantastic.

 

[anian]

I haven't played through the entire game, but so far the stun gun seems to work nicely on bosses (and others). Stun gun works on everyone and with a typhoon or an emp, you're mostly golden.

At times there are like too many choices on levels, I'm a completists with OCD and I take my time cause basically I search everything. On the other hand bosses really are only one way to kill type of deals and often I think about picking about the heavy gun.
But as Yatz already mentioned, you may wanna start out as a silent deadly guy but you end up being a fighter and they start with this from the begining, where I choose the silenced sniper rifle and then they gave me 20 bullets...what the hell.

 

[ReiverCorrupter]

Fair enough, except that the combat character can just stroll by those locked safes and secure doors and find some other way through. The hacker doesn't have that option.

Of course he does, what are you talking about. Anyone can take any augs, it's not like you can't have points in both hacking AND wall-punching/lifting. A hacker who prefers stealth will likely get the Ghost and Smooth Operator bonuses, thus enabling him to get more augs than someone who goes in guns blazing and gets a measly 10 xp per kill.

The boss fights are one-dimensional, obvious, and boring. You do a tiny bit of damage to the bad guy. He does massive damage to you. Chip away at his health bar without taking more than one consecutive hit, or its game over.

Chuck a gas, emp or concussion grenade at him to stun him. Use the enviroment against him (explosive barrels, electrified floors and so forth). Activate your invisibility and/or Typhoon. Position yourself so he has to jump over cover to get to you. These aren't all the same thing.

The fact that you can take ALL the augs in the first place is kinda symptomatic of the kind of decay Shamus is talking about, and yes whilst the game offers a more varied approach to combat than say, call of duty, they are still variations on the same theme of "to defeat the demon, shoot at it until it dies."

It just doesn't feel anywhere near as polished or thought out as the decisions you're faced with in other parts of the game, and that's a shame.

You see, I didn't realize that I was going to be forced into a gunfight so I put all my points into hacking augs first. This effectively BONED me when I came to the first boss encounter. Poiumty is just flat wrong if he thinks this isn't terrible game design. I ended up having to go back through the ENTIRE LEVEL to pick up all of the EMP grenades and a Rocket Launcher just so I could beat the boss. My character would have NEVER carried a rocket launcher around before this, I had to modify my in-game behavior based upon my knowledge of a future event that is supposed to be a surprise. This means that the game is effectively broken when it comes to boss fights. There are no 'if's 'and's or 'but's about it.

From that point on I had to carry around a weapon that I otherwise never used just for the next boss fight. There is NO excuse for this. I was playing legitimately as a hacker. In order to excuse the game you have to tell me that I was playing it 'wrong'. I'm not bad either, I was playing on the highest difficulty, and I was able to dodge the bosses attacks fairly well, but I had put all of my upgrades into my pistol, which was incapable of dealing enough damage.

Not to mention the game has a non-lethal option that gives you a massive award (100 Gamer Points on the Xbox), but built into the achievement is the clause "(Bossfights not withstanding)". That's stupid. You can spare the life of literally EVERYONE ELSE.