DICE Says No to Mod Tools For Battlefield 3

Beat14

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Hammeroj said:
Let me run this through the bullshit translator.

"We're planning on ripping people off with map packs."

Hmm.
I need to get me a bullshit translator, didn't really think of it like that. I really do hate map packs, them seem to be overpriced these days, maybe I ask to much, but developers may as well give the community the tools to mod, if it doesn't require too much of their time to do.

It does seem silly to decide for the modding community, if they will be able to mod it :/
 

GamingAwesome1

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DICE. Never ever underestimate bored and skilled nerds with lots of free time.

They do amazing things.
 

Fursnake

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Why DICE...why? Well looks like I'll just rent this for PS3, play the single player and finish it in a day or two, then be done with it.
 

brazuca

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Jacksaw Jack said:
The day a PC game is too complex for modders is the day DRM and other security bullshit make a game unpirateable. (It's a word...now)
lol You are so right! He could be more sincere and just say, "we do not want people messing with our descrutnoid technology, especially because we want to be the only studio with this know how." There simple, heh?!
 

McMullen

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With only this to go on, I'd have to say this guy is not good at his job, nor does he understand his customers, nor does he understand the nature of modding communities and how tenacious they are.

Is he new at this or something?
 

The Rogue Wolf

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Well, they've ensured that I won't lay a finger on BF3 for a penny over twenty bucks. Same as pretty much every other "Must have get it now go go go" shooter that decided not to support Mods. I'm not interested in tossing down sixty dollars for a stagnant, unchangable experience (aside from the obligatory fifteen-dollar "map packs", usually areas lifted right out of the single-player campaign and lightly edited to become arenas).

Portal 2, on the other hand, I happily snagged at release. And oh look, there's already Mod tools and user-created maps out.
 

Dr. Crawver

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they will regret this, as the modders will just do it anyway, and could break a few things dice wanted
 

Booze Zombie

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Pfft, really, that's the line they're going with? "It's just TOO advanced for your non-developer minds to fathom!"
 

dillinger88

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Like the article sort of mentions: No mod tools =/= no mods.

The best mod tools for BF1942 were actually created by the community, not DICE.

DICE have a history of underestimating modders abilities too.

I think that even though we may not see officially sanctioned mod tools from EA/DICE, there will no doubt be mods.

C'mon modders, don't make me eat my words!
 

Reyalsfeihc

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This isn't what they said at all. Sure they said that it would be extremely difficult for modders to mod Battlefield 3, but they said that they're still determining how they're going to approach mods for the game, as the state of the Frostbyte 2 Development Kit is extremely non-user friendly. People were complaining because an SDK wouldn't be released on Day 1, which is a bit aggravating since Crysis 2's SDK was JUST RELEASED a few days ago.

When watching the tech demo of Frostbyte 2 there's a lot of tools that the average modder just won't be able to use, such as the majority of animations being motion captured, determining the qualities of in game objects such as the level of destructibility displayed in the BF3 E3 footage, and how to break down those certain models, and Frostbyte is a completely new engine that is still only being used by DICE, so at this stage it probably has little to no UI interface that will be understandable outside of those working at the developer.

Wait for a month or two after the game release so they can make sure the actual game is patched nicely, then maybe the SDK will be rolled out by Christmas time.
 

Baresark

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I'm not surprised. All the talk about how they love PC gaming, and then they do nothing but back pedal on all the things they say in the first place. This one is supposed to be a proper PC BF, but it's also being developed for the the consoles, I have a hard time with this. I think that EA doesn't want dedicated modding tools developed, but DICE is playing along like good little boys and girls. I will be getting this because it's the only military FPS that I actually like the MP for. Not that fast twitch based run and gun. While that does happen, BF is really about working as a team to take objectives, and maps are made so spawn camping is nearly impossible, and anyone who jumps into the other teams base gets kicked by a mod anyway. Anyway, rest in peace DICE, you have made some great games, but I can't imagine that you will be able to keep people that interested either. And all EA cares about is beating CoD, and since you can't/won't be able to do that, it's only a matter of time.

Edit: all that being said, I'm sure mods will still come. Many a fine game is not moddable but there are still lots of mods for them. PC gaming would never let the user end of software development die. It's all that has made certain games playable, and enhanced games ridiculously.
 

]DustArma[

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Still Life said:
Jacksaw Jack said:
The day a PC game is too complex for modders is the day DRM and other security bullshit make a game unpirateable. (It's a word...now)
If only things were so simple.

DICE said:
Zh1nt0 and you folks have asked about it, so here's a piece on the modtools situation for BC2 PC.


Frostbite 1.5 consists of these components:

The game runtime
The editor runtime
The content processing runtime (aka "the pipeline")
and some plugins for Maya


The game runtime is distributed outside of EA, but the editor + pipeline + Maya plugins are not.



So let's take a look at some things that would need to be solved before we'd be ready to distribute the editor + pipeline.


Pipeline operation

Let's say that you tell the pipeline to build level MP_003.

MP_003 is represented by an XML file, which references a bunch of other files. These in turn reference other files. If you follow this graph of references, you will find the level layout, heightmap, characters, weapons, vehicles, and all the content that you can see in-game. (The in-game HUD and related stuff might also be in the graph.)

When the pipeline is about to build MP_003, it will first perform a consistency check on all content, and yell if any file that is referenced by any other is not present.

If all files are present, the pipeline will attempt to convert all files referenced by MP_003. It uses the file system journal to determine which files have changed on-disk. Also, and any files that have already been converted have info on which files depend on it (so it has info like: "if file X changes, then files Y,Z,W will also need to be rebuilt").

Building all content for BC2 from scratch takes something like 48-72 hours on a normal workstation. Half that time is spent building common content (such as character animations), half builds level-specific content.

In addition, there's a caching mechanism: if the pipeline wants to build a specific bit of content, it will first check if the pre-built content is already available on a cache server and take the result directly from the cache server instead. The pipeline can also populate the cache if it builds something new.


Pipeline issues

So how does this work in practice? It's not ideal, but it's good enough for us to ship games on it.

The pipeline is a bit overzealous with regards to rebuilding assets - sometimes it rebuilds stuff that it shouldn't need to.

The pipeline will normally crash about 2-3 times during a full rebuild.

You need to have Maya 8.5 (32-bit version) installed in order to convert any meshes.

Any content in the cache expires after 3 weeks. After 3 weeks have passed, that content will need to be rebuilt and re-uploaded by a machine running the pipeline. The effect that this has on day-to-day development is minimized by having one or two machines dedicated to running the pipeline every time any content change is done. By running the pipeline, those machines will populate the cache, thereby speeding up the build process for everyone else. (The output form those content build steps is discarded.)

In short: the pipeline + cache setup works better the more people are using it simultaneously.


If there are content errors, you need to know a lot about the internals of the game engine to figure out what's wrong.

Finally, in its current form, the pipeline + editor expects some specific IT infrastructure in place (most notably the cache server and a Perforce server).
If it's not there then the pipeline + editor will behave strangely.
The first time I tried, it took me about one week to get the full editor + pipeline setup to work properly outside of the DICE office. And that was when I had the option to call any of the other developers to ask for help.



... does this sound bad to you?

Truth be told, this is approximately where the industry average is at for game studios' internal game engines. One of FB 1.5's weaknesses is specifically that its content processing is flaky, and the flakiness gets more problematic as the amount of content goes up. FB 2.0 is much improved in this regard, but FB 1.5 is what we're using for BC2 and that's what relevant in the current discussion (or monologue if you prefer).


Content

Both the pipeline and the editor takes in all content in its raw, original form. Anyone who is to build any content needs the full 80GB of raw data on their machine. We are not comfortable giving out all our animations, meshes etc in raw form.

We are comfortable giving out the processed data - after all, that's what on the game disc - but that data does not plug into the editor/pipeline at all.


Licenses

The game, editor and pipeline all use commercial middleware. It is developed by Havok and several other companies.

The licensing agreement for the middleware allows us to use that code in specific products, on specific platforms.
If we want to release editor + pipeline, we need to license the middleware specifically for this. How much would that be? Perhaps $1M-$3M. I'm guessing wildly here.

Stripping out that middleware would seriously hamper the functionality especially of the pipeline. We use Havok Physics, for instance. Without Havok Physics, the pipeline wouldn't be able to convert any of the physics meshes. We also use Granny. Without Granny, the pipeline will not be able to convert any of the character animations. Etc.

Re-implementing the necessary functionality of the middleware ourselves ("let's make our own physics engine / let's plug in an open-source physics engine") would take literally man-years. Licensing is cheaper in pure $ cost and faster (it works now instead of by 2012).

The pipeline also uses some code that is under GPL. Given that we do not want to release the full source code for the editor + pipeline, we would need to replace the GPLed code with other implementations.

The GPLed code is less of a problem than the proprietary middleware.


Editor

The editor itself is reasonably stable and well-behaving. It is far from obvious how to set up the game logic for a level, but that is easily covered by releasing some example levels which contain the logic setup for the common gamemodes.


Test-running levels

First the level needs to be successfully processed by the pipeline. Then you'd want to be able to test it locally. That involves having a listen server around. We don't have a listen server neatly packaged. There's probably a piracy angle here too but I'm not going to discuss that.


Distribution of levels

Getting levels onto the RSPs server machines would likely not be any problem. However there's need for checksumming levels, so that game clients can know whether or not they have the correct version of level X on their machines. There's a whole bunch of other things (mainly UI-related) which will need cleaning up as well. Not difficult to do, just takes time and I'm listing it for the sake of completeness.

Also, there are some complications wrt when we release patches that affect the base game's content. Whenever we release a patch, all existing levels will need to be rebuilt with a new set of original data. This is because some level-common data is stored inside of the level archives. I'm not sure at the time of writing, but that probably means that the only manageable way for us would be to invalidate any user-made levels when we release a patch of that form.
Then creators of any user-generated levels would be required to run their levels again through the pipeline with the new base content supplied.


So how about just a map editor?

If it doesn't plug into the ecosystem above, then getting it to work involves some serious wrangling. Either it is a light-weight replacement for our existing editor - in which case all the challenges with the pipeline still remain - or it is a separate mode (think Forge for Halo). Developing an extra mod-layer that is sandwiched into the game would easily take 6-12 months.


Synergy effects between FB 1.5 and FB 2.0

So let's say that we would go through the procedure of making mod tools for FB 1.5. How much of that work would be reusable for FB 2.0?
I don't have any firm figures, but the differences between FB 1.5 and FB 2.0 are pretty large by now. Given this and the fact that a fair bit of the FB 1.5-specific problems (where the devil often is in the details) don't apply to FB 2.0, I'd guess that less than half of the work would port over to FB 2.0.


Conclusion

In conclusion, my recommendation to the rest of DICE is not to develop mod tools for BC2 PC. There are too many hurdles to overcome. That energy is better spent elsewhere, be that on BC2 or other titles.
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/battlefield-bad-company-2-pc/1350772-so-how-about-modtools.html

Compiling an SDK takes time and resources. Hopefully people will read this and understand things aren't always able to be handed to them on nice, silver platters.
More people need to read this, but knowing both the internet and the PC fanbases (of which I am a part of) they won't, which is a shame.
 

DarkhoIlow

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You can't stop modders just like you can't stop piracy.

DICE saying it's "too complex" will not change anything,mods will be created even if they want it or not.
 

Saulkar

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This in the end will devolve into one major buttfuck to DICE. People will mod it whether you like it or not.
 

Cowabungaa

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Imper1um said:
RIP Dedicated Servers
RIP PC Support Equality
RIP Mods

What more is just going away, "because it is too complex"?
Except that, y'know, it'll have dedicated servers and all. [http://www.joystiq.com/2011/02/08/battlefield-3-to-have-dedicated-servers-leading-on-pc/]

Regardless, it's a silly excuse. It's up to the modders to decide whether modding is too complicated for them. It's pretty arrogant for a developer to decide what is or is not too complex, especially for a technically literate group like modders.
Still Life said:
Jacksaw Jack said:
The day a PC game is too complex for modders is the day DRM and other security bullshit make a game unpirateable. (It's a word...now)
If only things were so simple.

DICE said:
Zh1nt0 and you folks have asked about it, so here's a piece on the modtools situation for BC2 PC.


Frostbite 1.5 consists of these components:

The game runtime
The editor runtime
The content processing runtime (aka "the pipeline")
and some plugins for Maya


The game runtime is distributed outside of EA, but the editor + pipeline + Maya plugins are not.



So let's take a look at some things that would need to be solved before we'd be ready to distribute the editor + pipeline.


Pipeline operation

Let's say that you tell the pipeline to build level MP_003.

MP_003 is represented by an XML file, which references a bunch of other files. These in turn reference other files. If you follow this graph of references, you will find the level layout, heightmap, characters, weapons, vehicles, and all the content that you can see in-game. (The in-game HUD and related stuff might also be in the graph.)

When the pipeline is about to build MP_003, it will first perform a consistency check on all content, and yell if any file that is referenced by any other is not present.

If all files are present, the pipeline will attempt to convert all files referenced by MP_003. It uses the file system journal to determine which files have changed on-disk. Also, and any files that have already been converted have info on which files depend on it (so it has info like: "if file X changes, then files Y,Z,W will also need to be rebuilt").

Building all content for BC2 from scratch takes something like 48-72 hours on a normal workstation. Half that time is spent building common content (such as character animations), half builds level-specific content.

In addition, there's a caching mechanism: if the pipeline wants to build a specific bit of content, it will first check if the pre-built content is already available on a cache server and take the result directly from the cache server instead. The pipeline can also populate the cache if it builds something new.


Pipeline issues

So how does this work in practice? It's not ideal, but it's good enough for us to ship games on it.

The pipeline is a bit overzealous with regards to rebuilding assets - sometimes it rebuilds stuff that it shouldn't need to.

The pipeline will normally crash about 2-3 times during a full rebuild.

You need to have Maya 8.5 (32-bit version) installed in order to convert any meshes.

Any content in the cache expires after 3 weeks. After 3 weeks have passed, that content will need to be rebuilt and re-uploaded by a machine running the pipeline. The effect that this has on day-to-day development is minimized by having one or two machines dedicated to running the pipeline every time any content change is done. By running the pipeline, those machines will populate the cache, thereby speeding up the build process for everyone else. (The output form those content build steps is discarded.)

In short: the pipeline + cache setup works better the more people are using it simultaneously.


If there are content errors, you need to know a lot about the internals of the game engine to figure out what's wrong.

Finally, in its current form, the pipeline + editor expects some specific IT infrastructure in place (most notably the cache server and a Perforce server).
If it's not there then the pipeline + editor will behave strangely.
The first time I tried, it took me about one week to get the full editor + pipeline setup to work properly outside of the DICE office. And that was when I had the option to call any of the other developers to ask for help.



... does this sound bad to you?

Truth be told, this is approximately where the industry average is at for game studios' internal game engines. One of FB 1.5's weaknesses is specifically that its content processing is flaky, and the flakiness gets more problematic as the amount of content goes up. FB 2.0 is much improved in this regard, but FB 1.5 is what we're using for BC2 and that's what relevant in the current discussion (or monologue if you prefer).


Content

Both the pipeline and the editor takes in all content in its raw, original form. Anyone who is to build any content needs the full 80GB of raw data on their machine. We are not comfortable giving out all our animations, meshes etc in raw form.

We are comfortable giving out the processed data - after all, that's what on the game disc - but that data does not plug into the editor/pipeline at all.


Licenses

The game, editor and pipeline all use commercial middleware. It is developed by Havok and several other companies.

The licensing agreement for the middleware allows us to use that code in specific products, on specific platforms.
If we want to release editor + pipeline, we need to license the middleware specifically for this. How much would that be? Perhaps $1M-$3M. I'm guessing wildly here.

Stripping out that middleware would seriously hamper the functionality especially of the pipeline. We use Havok Physics, for instance. Without Havok Physics, the pipeline wouldn't be able to convert any of the physics meshes. We also use Granny. Without Granny, the pipeline will not be able to convert any of the character animations. Etc.

Re-implementing the necessary functionality of the middleware ourselves ("let's make our own physics engine / let's plug in an open-source physics engine") would take literally man-years. Licensing is cheaper in pure $ cost and faster (it works now instead of by 2012).

The pipeline also uses some code that is under GPL. Given that we do not want to release the full source code for the editor + pipeline, we would need to replace the GPLed code with other implementations.

The GPLed code is less of a problem than the proprietary middleware.


Editor

The editor itself is reasonably stable and well-behaving. It is far from obvious how to set up the game logic for a level, but that is easily covered by releasing some example levels which contain the logic setup for the common gamemodes.


Test-running levels

First the level needs to be successfully processed by the pipeline. Then you'd want to be able to test it locally. That involves having a listen server around. We don't have a listen server neatly packaged. There's probably a piracy angle here too but I'm not going to discuss that.


Distribution of levels

Getting levels onto the RSPs server machines would likely not be any problem. However there's need for checksumming levels, so that game clients can know whether or not they have the correct version of level X on their machines. There's a whole bunch of other things (mainly UI-related) which will need cleaning up as well. Not difficult to do, just takes time and I'm listing it for the sake of completeness.

Also, there are some complications wrt when we release patches that affect the base game's content. Whenever we release a patch, all existing levels will need to be rebuilt with a new set of original data. This is because some level-common data is stored inside of the level archives. I'm not sure at the time of writing, but that probably means that the only manageable way for us would be to invalidate any user-made levels when we release a patch of that form.
Then creators of any user-generated levels would be required to run their levels again through the pipeline with the new base content supplied.


So how about just a map editor?

If it doesn't plug into the ecosystem above, then getting it to work involves some serious wrangling. Either it is a light-weight replacement for our existing editor - in which case all the challenges with the pipeline still remain - or it is a separate mode (think Forge for Halo). Developing an extra mod-layer that is sandwiched into the game would easily take 6-12 months.


Synergy effects between FB 1.5 and FB 2.0

So let's say that we would go through the procedure of making mod tools for FB 1.5. How much of that work would be reusable for FB 2.0?
I don't have any firm figures, but the differences between FB 1.5 and FB 2.0 are pretty large by now. Given this and the fact that a fair bit of the FB 1.5-specific problems (where the devil often is in the details) don't apply to FB 2.0, I'd guess that less than half of the work would port over to FB 2.0.


Conclusion

In conclusion, my recommendation to the rest of DICE is not to develop mod tools for BC2 PC. There are too many hurdles to overcome. That energy is better spent elsewhere, be that on BC2 or other titles.
http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/battlefield-bad-company-2-pc/1350772-so-how-about-modtools.html

Compiling an SDK takes time and resources. Hopefully people will read this and understand things aren't always able to be handed to them on nice, silver platters.
This is an interesting post and deserves to be quoted.

Still, I'd rather see some actual modders try it out. It's a group that deserves better than pandering, seeing as how the modding community gave us some of the best experiences in gaming, amongst them TF2 and DotA. If anything DICE could present it as a challenge to modders; go make some cool shit for BF3 with something this complicated, I dare ya.