DICE Says No to Mod Tools For Battlefield 3

[Ninjamedic]

If I'm not mistaken weren't the Maps for the last Battlefield free? Or is hating on EA the new fad around here?

A new fad that started probably 5 years ago when they started buying out a bunch of top quality developers and closing them and/or destroying their franchises.

As for this thing, it probably IS a lie but one out of ignoranc.e

Really? Five years? because I didn't start seeing it until ME2 ans BC2. Then again I'd blame Bioware for ME2 and DA2 but whatever.

 

[theultimateend]

If I'm not mistaken weren't the Maps for the last Battlefield free? Or is hating on EA the new fad around here?

A new fad that started probably 5 years ago when they started buying out a bunch of top quality developers and closing them and/or destroying their franchises.

As for this thing, it probably IS a lie but one out of ignoranc.e

Really? Five years? because I didn't start seeing it until ME2 ans BC2. Then again I'd blame Bioware for ME2 and DA2 but whatever.

Then you weren't a fan of Westwood games nor of Maxis titles.

It has been a problem for a long, long time.

 

[Ninjamedic]

If I'm not mistaken weren't the Maps for the last Battlefield free? Or is hating on EA the new fad around here?

A new fad that started probably 5 years ago when they started buying out a bunch of top quality developers and closing them and/or destroying their franchises.

As for this thing, it probably IS a lie but one out of ignoranc.e

Really? Five years? because I didn't start seeing it until ME2 ans BC2. Then again I'd blame Bioware for ME2 and DA2 but whatever.

Then you weren't a fan of Westwood games nor of Maxis titles.

It has been a problem for a long, long time.

I was talking about the En Masse hatedom, but I agree, EA need a lesson in civility.

 

[theultimateend]

If I'm not mistaken weren't the Maps for the last Battlefield free? Or is hating on EA the new fad around here?

A new fad that started probably 5 years ago when they started buying out a bunch of top quality developers and closing them and/or destroying their franchises.

As for this thing, it probably IS a lie but one out of ignoranc.e

Really? Five years? because I didn't start seeing it until ME2 ans BC2. Then again I'd blame Bioware for ME2 and DA2 but whatever.

Then you weren't a fan of Westwood games nor of Maxis titles.

It has been a problem for a long, long time.

I was talking about the En Masse hatedom, but I agree, EA need a lesson in civility.

I'll take that as some points for my non-existant hipster cred .

I was hating EA before it was En Masse cool.

It all started with CnC Renegade getting crushed after the acquisition was complete...and then watching Maxis fall apart, reaching the epitome of disappointment with SPORE.

Then once Bioware was bought out I knew they were a lost cause. Little glimmers shine from time to time but annoyances like being forced to get the DLC from their special "points" store, are just too much for me to handle.

I don't shit on others for liking them.

But I will probably not like EA till they stop buying every company I like and ruining them :/.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Read his review... he is effectively saying 'We're not even going to Try because you all would be too stupid to use it...'

I agree that he came off as arrogant, but I can understand that DICE hasn't the time to pull an advanced engine into an accessible SDK for users.

Sure, and reasonable people would accept that position if it was left at that. DICE aren't willing to spend all the time and money it would take to strip down to basics and rebuild their entire devtool set to make official modtools. That's perfectly fair. From the sounds of it that would be a massive amount of effort expended for no tangible gain. Doesn't sound like the best business plan, especially for a dev who has EA sitting on their shoulder.

Problem, as I see it, is that DICE went that one step further to be dicks about it all by basically saying "... and you don't have our giant space-brains to comprehend our tools." That's a slap in the face to the core modding communities that regularly show levels of ingenuity, resourcefulness and dedication that would surprise most people.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

I'll take that as some points for my non-existant hipster cred .

I was hating EA before it was En Masse cool.

It all started with CnC Renegade getting crushed after the acquisition was complete...and then watching Maxis fall apart, reaching the epitome of disappointment with SPORE.

Pffft. If you were really cool you'd have hated them since their acquisition, and subsequent destruction, of Origin and Bullfrog.

 

[theultimateend]

I'll take that as some points for my non-existant hipster cred .

I was hating EA before it was En Masse cool.

It all started with CnC Renegade getting crushed after the acquisition was complete...and then watching Maxis fall apart, reaching the epitome of disappointment with SPORE.

Pffft. If you were really cool you'd have hated them since their acquisition, and subsequent destruction, of Origin and Bullfrog.

That's why it is non-existent hipster cred .

 

[HyenaThePirate]

And with that single statement, Dice has effectively murdered any hopes they might have had of Battlefield 3 beasting Modern Warfare 3.

Back to cult fan status with the BF series.

Because every player who buys BF3 only does so to mod, right?

No, but modding was one of the biggest facets that made the BF series such a hit on the PC. It was the one thing that separated CoD from BF, other than the larger maps, strategic gameplay, destructible environments, and vehicles. But MW3 will probably feature ALL of those things to some extent, effectively erasing the only slim margin of difference between the two series. Without modding, BF3 just becomes another rank and file shooter, arguably, and it dashes a considerable amount of hope that it will draw enough players away from the CoD franchise to really make it a true competitor.

For example, how many people are still playing BC2 compared to Black Ops? I'll acknowledge that I don't know the actual numbers, but I'm willing to bet that Dice/EA's lack of DLC support have left the game collecting dust, while CoD is STILL releasing new map packs. In the Battlefield series, traditionally, modders have picked up that slack, allowing the games to stay fresh FAR after the company has moved on. People are STILL playing BF2 and BF2142... even though both of those games have received zero to no attention over the past few years by the company. Why?

MODS.

 

[Zer_]

And with that single statement, Dice has effectively murdered any hopes they might have had of Battlefield 3 beasting Modern Warfare 3.

Back to cult fan status with the BF series.

Because every player who buys BF3 only does so to mod, right?

No, but modding was one of the biggest facets that made the BF series such a hit on the PC. It was the one thing that separated CoD from BF, other than the larger maps, strategic gameplay, destructible environments, and vehicles. But MW3 will probably feature ALL of those things to some extent, effectively erasing the only slim margin of difference between the two series. Without modding, BF3 just becomes another rank and file shooter, arguably, and it dashes a considerable amount of hope that it will draw enough players away from the CoD franchise to really make it a true competitor.

For example, how many people are still playing BC2 compared to Black Ops? I'll acknowledge that I don't know the actual numbers, but I'm willing to bet that Dice/EA's lack of DLC support have left the game collecting dust, while CoD is STILL releasing new map packs. In the Battlefield series, traditionally, modders have picked up that slack, allowing the games to stay fresh FAR after the company has moved on. People are STILL playing BF2 and BF2142... even though both of those games have received zero to no attention over the past few years by the company. Why?

MODS.

The hell do you mean lack of DLC support? They released new maps for free, and gave us an expansion pack for $14.99. Stop talking out of your ass.

And let us reiterate. The tools that the devs use to build the maps in BC2 and BF3 require a large (and expensive) IT infrastructure. They simply can't release the mod tools without taking months to create new ones from scratch.

Releasing their tools also means they'd have to release 80+ GB of raw data to the public as well. This is something that NO self respecting developer would do. Many of these issues are said to have been improved somewhat with Frostbite 2.0, but I doubt that it makes it any more feasible.

The OP article itself is not well informed, and the article this one is based off of isn't either. The PR guy for DICE also made a few mistakes in saying that it would be too complex for modders without explaining it further. (It's too complex from a hardware requirement standpoint).

 

[HyenaThePirate]

And with that single statement, Dice has effectively murdered any hopes they might have had of Battlefield 3 beasting Modern Warfare 3.

Back to cult fan status with the BF series.

Because every player who buys BF3 only does so to mod, right?

No, but modding was one of the biggest facets that made the BF series such a hit on the PC. It was the one thing that separated CoD from BF, other than the larger maps, strategic gameplay, destructible environments, and vehicles. But MW3 will probably feature ALL of those things to some extent, effectively erasing the only slim margin of difference between the two series. Without modding, BF3 just becomes another rank and file shooter, arguably, and it dashes a considerable amount of hope that it will draw enough players away from the CoD franchise to really make it a true competitor.

For example, how many people are still playing BC2 compared to Black Ops? I'll acknowledge that I don't know the actual numbers, but I'm willing to bet that Dice/EA's lack of DLC support have left the game collecting dust, while CoD is STILL releasing new map packs. In the Battlefield series, traditionally, modders have picked up that slack, allowing the games to stay fresh FAR after the company has moved on. People are STILL playing BF2 and BF2142... even though both of those games have received zero to no attention over the past few years by the company. Why?

MODS.

The hell do you mean lack of DLC support? They released new maps for free, and gave us an expansion pack for $14.99. Stop talking out of your ass.

And let us reiterate. The tools that the devs use to build the maps in BC2 and BF3 require a large (and expensive) IT infrastructure. They simply can't release the mod tools without taking months to create new ones from scratch.

Releasing their tools also means they'd have to release 80+ GB of raw data to the public as well. This is something that NO self respecting developer would do. Many of these issues are said to have been improved somewhat with Frostbite 2.0, but I doubt that it makes it any more feasible.

The OP article itself is not well informed, and the article this one is based off of isn't either. The PR guy for DICE also made a few mistakes in saying that it would be too complex for modders without explaining it further. (It's too complex from a hardware requirement standpoint).

Really, new maps and an expansion huh? Oh yeah! I vaguely remember those...

See what I did there? I just made the point that many, MANY gamers share when it comes to these two franchises:

CoD has a solid history of timely, and impressive DLC and map packs, as well as support. It is the reason HALO is such a vaunted franchise as well.
Battlefield? Are people still playing Bad Company 2? I haven't heard anyone even MENTION it in months. Battlefield 2 and 2142, sure there are still players *cough*modders*cough*.

Once you step outside of the aggressively egotistical microcosm in which you seem to be firmly entrenched, you'd realize that a paltry ass map pack and a 15 dollar expansion released so long ago that people have forgotten they even exist (and lord knows I'm sick to DEATH of playing Wake freaking Island in any form) doesn't begin to compare with the regular rollouts that black ops and MW2 have had. Seriously, when WAS the last time BC2 got anything again? No, don't bother telling me, because I don't really care because it's been too damn long and I've moved on.

At any rate, this tit for tat is moot. BF3 will have some fans and loyalists and sell hundreds of thousands of copies... which will be quickly and unceremoniously forgotten and ignored the second Modern Warfare 3 hits the shelves. And several months later, when the shine has faded from both games, MW3 will still be rolling out fresh, exciting content.
Will BF3 and Dice be doing the same? As a fan of the Battlefield series, which ironically I love and prefer far and away over the run and gun 'arena' combat of the CoD series I can only hope for the best, but history has taught me that in a year's time, I'll be playing CoD because Battlefield 3 will have reached it's limit.

 

[Zer_]

And with that single statement, Dice has effectively murdered any hopes they might have had of Battlefield 3 beasting Modern Warfare 3.

Back to cult fan status with the BF series.

Because every player who buys BF3 only does so to mod, right?

No, but modding was one of the biggest facets that made the BF series such a hit on the PC. It was the one thing that separated CoD from BF, other than the larger maps, strategic gameplay, destructible environments, and vehicles. But MW3 will probably feature ALL of those things to some extent, effectively erasing the only slim margin of difference between the two series. Without modding, BF3 just becomes another rank and file shooter, arguably, and it dashes a considerable amount of hope that it will draw enough players away from the CoD franchise to really make it a true competitor.

For example, how many people are still playing BC2 compared to Black Ops? I'll acknowledge that I don't know the actual numbers, but I'm willing to bet that Dice/EA's lack of DLC support have left the game collecting dust, while CoD is STILL releasing new map packs. In the Battlefield series, traditionally, modders have picked up that slack, allowing the games to stay fresh FAR after the company has moved on. People are STILL playing BF2 and BF2142... even though both of those games have received zero to no attention over the past few years by the company. Why?

MODS.

The hell do you mean lack of DLC support? They released new maps for free, and gave us an expansion pack for $14.99. Stop talking out of your ass.

And let us reiterate. The tools that the devs use to build the maps in BC2 and BF3 require a large (and expensive) IT infrastructure. They simply can't release the mod tools without taking months to create new ones from scratch.

Releasing their tools also means they'd have to release 80+ GB of raw data to the public as well. This is something that NO self respecting developer would do. Many of these issues are said to have been improved somewhat with Frostbite 2.0, but I doubt that it makes it any more feasible.

The OP article itself is not well informed, and the article this one is based off of isn't either. The PR guy for DICE also made a few mistakes in saying that it would be too complex for modders without explaining it further. (It's too complex from a hardware requirement standpoint).

Really, new maps and an expansion huh? Oh yeah! I vaguely remember those...

See what I did there? I just made the point that many, MANY gamers share when it comes to these two franchises:

CoD has a solid history of timely, and impressive DLC and map packs, as well as support. It is the reason HALO is such a vaunted franchise as well.
Battlefield? Are people still playing Bad Company 2? I haven't heard anyone even MENTION it in months. Battlefield 2 and 2142, sure there are still players *cough*modders*cough*.

Once you step outside of the aggressively egotistical microcosm in which you seem to be firmly entrenched, you'd realize that a paltry ass map pack and a 15 dollar expansion released so long ago that people have forgotten they even exist (and lord knows I'm sick to DEATH of playing Wake freaking Island in any form) doesn't begin to compare with the regular rollouts that black ops and MW2 have had. Seriously, when WAS the last time BC2 got anything again? No, don't bother telling me, because I don't really care because it's been too damn long and I've moved on.

At any rate, this tit for tat is moot. BF3 will have some fans and loyalists and sell hundreds of thousands of copies... which will be quickly and unceremoniously forgotten and ignored the second Modern Warfare 3 hits the shelves. And several months later, when the shine has faded from both games, MW3 will still be rolling out fresh, exciting content.
Will BF3 and Dice be doing the same? As a fan of the Battlefield series, which ironically I love and prefer far and away over the run and gun 'arena' combat of the CoD series I can only hope for the best, but history has taught me that in a year's time, I'll be playing CoD because Battlefield 3 will have reached it's limit.

Your arguments fall apart when you take into consideration that BC2 came out at roughly the same time as MW2, both of these games haven't had any recent map releases. And there are still tons of BC2 players, myself included.

CoD gets only gets new content until the next game comes out. And I hardly consider 5 new maps to be worth my hard earned cash. All the content that came out in the BC2: Vietnam greatly outshines anything you saw for the CoD series. I recall at least 5 new maps (3 I think were from BC1) which were ported over to BC2. Oddly enough, these maps are some of the best.

The only game I feel that DICE hasn't supported enough was Mirror's Edge. Oh and thanks for not addressing my main point, which was the fact that releasing mod tools for BF3 is a both a very costly, and unfeasible endeavor. If it does happen, it'll be months after release.

 

[Neyon]

Wow, to remove modding tools is bad enough, but to lie about the reason is just insulting. The only reason not to include them is to force players to buy DLC if they want any new content. I will no longer be buying BF3.

 

[Still Life]

snip

Mods have extended out the longevity of an old game; no one will deny that. Your argument falls apart like a wet paper bag, though. BF3 is multiplat and MW3 are multiplat. No, the majority of gamers buying these two games will care little about a mod SDK. Fact. Only hardcore PC players.

BF:BC2 got a lot of DLC support. Free maps? Check. A huge Vietnam themed expansion? Check. Don't even try that argument. COD is a mega franchise with more money behind it, more players and annual release dates with multiple studios. You need to put things into perspective. DICE have had their game out longer than BO, it still has a strong community and the studio is focusing all its current resources on BF3.

Even then, there's still lots of players on all platforms for BC2 and the game gets lots of mentions around the community. You must live under a rock.

Lastly, MW3 will have mod tools and dedi servers? Provide proof. There have been No confirmations, only rumors.

 

[Still Life]

The only game I feel that DICE hasn't supported enough was Mirror's Edge. Oh and thanks for not addressing my main point, which was the fact that releasing mod tools for BF3 is a both a very costly, and unfeasible endeavor. If it does happen, it'll be months after release.

No person who plays BF:BC2 who has half a brain has been disappointed with the support it got. Overall, it has been much better than MW2, which is roughly when the game came out. Vietnam was better value than all of the shoddy map packs released combined, so far as I'm concerned. It's almost like playing an entirely different game.

Wow, to remove modding tools is bad enough, but to lie about the reason is just insulting. The only reason not to include them is to force players to buy DLC if they want any new content. I will no longer be buying BF3.

Haven't read the thread, have you?

 

[UltimatheChosen]

Wow, to remove modding tools is bad enough, but to lie about the reason is just insulting. The only reason not to include them is to force players to buy DLC if they want any new content. I will no longer be buying BF3.

Go back and read the rest of the thread.

Considering that most modders don't have a mainframe computer capable of running of 1.4 petaflops... they won't even have the processing power to compile a map in under a week and a half.

Imagine bugtesting under that scenario. Spending over a week every time a new bug pops up, for every attempt at fixing it? It would take you years to complete a single map, and your computer would be too bottlenecked to do much of anything else during that entire time.

 

[Couch Radish]

The only game I feel that DICE hasn't supported enough was Mirror's Edge. Oh and thanks for not addressing my main point, which was the fact that releasing mod tools for BF3 is a both a very costly, and unfeasible endeavor. If it does happen, it'll be months after release.

Well then I have good news for you. I read somewhere that DICE is working on a Mirror's Edge 2, and a few things they're going to change are:

- Will possibly use the Frostbite Engine (same one as BF3)
- Multiplayer
- Fixing the difficulty spikes
- Fixing the game pacing

[link]http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/06/08/ea-2011-mirrors-edge-2-to-be-powered-by-frostbite-2/[/ink]

Enjoy, bro.

 

[Daemonate]

It may or not be true, but it's insulting and stupid to say it publically in such a fashion.

I was speaking to the founder of ModDB the other day, and his views echo my own: "Maybe they're right, but what harm does it do to put the tools out there and see what happens?"
Remember the community still views modtools as a favour, not a right generally; so there's no onus on the developer to make an extremely user-friendly, prettied-up mod set.

All the truly great mods I've played have been for games with no mod tools that were essentially engine hacks - some of them very low level (remember DeHacked for DooM?).

Why not just release some tools and if it's not worth the modders time, so be it?

 

[WickedSkin]

Never thought I'd say this: Fuck you DICE. We'll see about that...

Its more like "EA says no to potential revenue loss on paid DLCs casued by Gamers ability to create their own maps and mods".

If EA paid any attention they'd realize DLC sells anyway. At least DICE DLC is actually worth the money compared to Activisions MW2 DLC. I'll just have to comfort myself in knowing that.