Different twist on old "console controller vs mouse+keyboard" argument

[Tibike77]

DISCLAIMER : I do not own any consoles myself, and I only used consoles owned by other people for very short periods of time (like, say, playing FFX on a PS2 owned by my brother).

I don't want to discuss the merits or demerits of either one of the platforms or control methods mentioned, because we all have our personal bias which may or may not be based on reality... so unless we have definite proof by direct comparison, there's little point in arguing either way.
Which brings me to my actual "twist", the real question : WAS there ever a time when "proof" was possible ? Or is it likely to happen any time soon ?

So what I want to ask is this : has there ever been a game (almost certainly a 1st or 3rd person shooter) where you COULD have on the same game server BOTH console players and PC players fighting together or against eachother ? Or is any such game in development ?
I haven't personally played any such game, but I heard vague mentions of such a game possibly existing (or having existed, or being developed), but my google-fu fails me and I can't find anything concrete... be it because it never existed, or because it wasn't popular enough, or I just fail at searching.

IF such a game ever existed (like I said, not sure it ever did exist, or will ever exist), again, IF, then what were the reactions of console players pitted against PC players ? Were they satisfied the playing field was even ?
If such a game never existed but is being developed, can you point me in the right direction ?

 

[IrradiatedFish]

To answer your question , I don't know if there has been console vs PC compatible games (though, I thought I heard that Unreal Tournament III was, however I can't say this for certain), but there's nothing stopping someone from using a console style controller on a PC.

Anyway, point being, if you wanted to pit a console gamer against a PC gamer, just get them both on some PC's and pass the console gamer a logitech gamepad of some sort.


EDIT: After a quick search, I found out that although Unreal Tournament III WAS initially planned to have cross-platform online multi-player (as I thought I had heard), it turns out they scrapped the idea (I didn't bother reading why, do a quick google search yourself if interested; not difficult to find)

 

[nuqneh1]

Shadowrun For Xbox 360

It failed miserably.

 

[Tibike77]

Shadowrun For Xbox 360. It failed miserably.

Haven't played it, but it does sound vaguely familiar.
But what do you mean, the game itself was bad, or did the interaction between XBox and PC cause the problems ?

Edit : googling a bit and digging through archived older versions of various webpages, it seems like there might have been some "console vs PC" servers at one point (although not quite sure how long that lasted), but that on those servers the PC controls were intentionally gimped from the start while console players received some autoaim assist or something to that extent... so there never really was a fair direct comparison to begin with... and that in the end they segregated PC from console on separated servers, and shut down all publisher-operated servers eventually, which meant console players were out of luck... right ? Or am I failing at searching and/or understanding again ?

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

Didn't Quake 3 allow interplay between PC and Dreamcast players? I think I remember hearing that PC users were dominating and subsoquently sega released their own keyboard and mouse to battle the problem.

Spoiler

Spoiler

I'm not saying I'm right, it was 10 years ago now...but that's how I remember it.

 

[DazZ.]

You can use controllers on PCs, why not pit people against each other that way?

 

[Griphphin]

Halo 2 PC was on the console and PC. Console players were givin the sticky-aim that consoles have to help them compete. I don't know how it turned out, though.

 

[CrystalShadow]

Try xbox controllers on PC. (there's windows drivers for them, seeing as microsoft makes both) It might give some insight, though it does depend on wether the game you're playing can be configured properly to use a console style controller.

 

[IrradiatedFish]

Console players were givin the sticky-aim that consoles have to help them compete.

I've actually noticed that in most console FPS's

 

[Tibike77]

You can use controllers on PCs, why not pit people against each other that way?

Try xbox controllers on PC. (there's windows drivers for them, seeing as microsoft makes both) It might give some insight, though it does depend on wether the game you're playing can be configured properly to use a console style controller.

Well, I know which way *I* am leaning in the big debate, but to answer your questions, a console player would probably refute that as being an unrealistic test because "they're not playing the console version of the game so it doesn't count as a fair comparison".

For it to be a crystal-clear comparison with no possible doubt, each of the platforms need to perform as good as you'd expect of them if the game was designed for that platform alon -- but no extra/missing relevant features, like, say autoaim on one but not the other(s) - they all need to have aim assist possible (unless the user chooses to disable it himself) or none is allowed to have it -- and simply just allow players from all platforms to compete with/against eachother in the same server environment.

P.S. How come current-gen consoles don't support USB mice+keyboards anyway ?
Or do they ?
If they do, how come almost nobody uses them (and/or console games aren't designed to allow for the possibility of their use) ?

 

[StBishop]

You can use controllers on PCs, why not pit people against each other that way?

Try xbox controllers on PC. (there's windows drivers for them, seeing as microsoft makes both) It might give some insight, though it does depend on wether the game you're playing can be configured properly to use a console style controller.

Well, I know which way *I* am leaning in the big debate, but to answer your questions, a console player would probably refute that as being an unrealistic test because "they're not playing the console version of the game so it doesn't count as a fair comparison".
For it to be a crystal-clear comparison with no possible doubt, each of the platforms need to perform as good as you'd expect of them if the game was designed for that platform alone, and simply just allow players from all platforms to compete with/against eachother in the same server environment.

Wouldn't Halo (which ever one's on pc) or tf2 via LAN fit this bill? As other posters have said 360 controllers can be used with pc and both of these gamesare available on 360 as well.

I also think we need to consider that the game you're playing affects which control scheme would be best. Seamus Young wrote an article about this [footnote]which I'll link when I get home[/footnote]

Also, we're all focusing on FPS games. What about DA:O?

 

[DazZ.]

P.S. How come current-gen consoles don't support USB mice+keyboards anyway ?
Or do they ?
If they do, how come almost nobody uses them (and/or console games aren't designed to allow for the possibility of their use) ?

My guess at this is the games aren't made for K+B, so the mouse movement would be awful. With mice you snap to shots, and with controllers you drag it over. Seeing as the game is coded for stick input when you put in left with a mouse it wouldn't be the same speed as it would be with a real mouse, it would have the slow drag effect of a analogue stick because that's the input the software is made to take.

 

[Tibike77]

Wouldn't Halo (which ever one's on pc) or tf2 via LAN fit this bill?

The first two came out on the PC. Not the third or any others.
Like I said, I'm a 99.999% PC-gamer and barely know anything about consoles except what games are on them.
I TRIED some shooters on consoles a good while ago (several times actually with some space in between), but was instantly repulsed, tried to play for a while but couldn't handle it (after years upon years of mouse+keyboard). It felt like that time I tried to play Quake with a joystick (that is, horrible). The only console game I played for more than a couple of hours was FFX.

So I wouldn't know if you could even hook up a PC Halo 1|2 player and an XBox Halo 1|2 player into the same game session... that was actually my big original question set :
CAN you ?
Has it been done ?
What were the results ?

 

[KefkaCultist]

well its not a shooter but DC Universe Online is comming out for PC and PS3 and they are supposedly able to play in the same servers

 

[RootBrewski]

The January 2006 issue of PC GAMER(US) has an article where they play Halo on the pc 2v2 with 2 guys using gamepad and the others M+K. When they turned off aim assist final score was 50-24 in favor of the M+K.

 

[Sacman]

They have run plenty of test pitting M&K VS. Controller and M&K wins every time... so I don't think cross platform multi player games will be available anytime soon...

 

[Tibike77]

My guess at this is the games aren't made for K+B, so the mouse movement would be awful. With mice you snap to shots, and with controllers you drag it over. Seeing as the game is coded for stick input when you put in left with a mouse it wouldn't be the same speed as it would be with a real mouse, it would have the slow drag effect of a analogue stick because that's the input the software is made to take.

Well, if you want to get technical, once upon a time, it was quite usual to play Doom with just the keyboard, so it's not like it can't be done even simpler.
Also, I have trouble believing you couldn't easily adapt a mouse input type to just about any game that's designed to be played with either a controller or just a keyboard or digital pad, as long as the game doesn't require too much finesse of too many different control axes -- that is, as long as it's just a "point view at something" thing, transitioning between keyboard, controller or mouse control as primary input (with no additional tweaks) should not be such a big deal, software-wise.

Anyway...

The big debate was always about "what's better" between a console controller and a keyboard+mouse, with the console player debate angle being that they would have no problems competing in fast-paced games (like 1st/3rd person shooters) with a PC player.
If you're starting to argue that the mouse+keyboard input has to be limited compared to what it can do to give a console controller a fair fight, that automatically implies a loss on the original argument.

 

[StBishop]

Wouldn't Halo (which ever one's on pc) or tf2 via LAN fit this bill?

The first two came out on the PC. Not the third or any others.
Like I said, I'm a 99.999% PC-gamer and barely know anything about consoles except what games are on them.
I TRIED some shooters on consoles a good while ago (several times actually with some space in between), but was instantly repulsed, tried to play for a while but couldn't handle it (after years upon years of mouse+keyboard). It felt like that time I tried to play Quake with a joystick (that is, horrible). The only console game I played for more than a couple of hours was FFX.

So I wouldn't know if you could even hook up a PC Halo 1|2 player and an XBox Halo 1|2 player into the same game session... that was actually my big original question set :
CAN you ?
Has it been done ?
What were the results ?

I think that I may not have explained myself properly.
I'm suggesting that we get 2 pcs + 1 console controller + 1 pc gamer + 1 console gamer = fairly reasonable test
To clarify both gamers are on pcs but the only variables are control system and skillset or farmilliarity with said controllers.

For the purpose of this experiment we're assuming that they've both played halo before, they're exactly as good at the game as each other, and that there are no differences in gameplay between pc & console

 

[Extra-Ordinary]

That'd be cool. That reminds me of a conversation I was having with a few friends. We thought of how cool it would be to combine the internet services of the Xbox, PS3, and PC. We'd include the Wii but it almost doesn't share any games in common with the other three systems. Save "Star Wars The Force Unleashed" as far as I know.

 

[Tibike77]

The January 2006 issue of PC GAMER(US) has an article where they play Halo on the pc 2v2 with 2 guys using gamepad and the others M+K. When they turned off aim assist final score was 50-24 in favor of the M+K.

That brings us back to the answer I gave a few posts above to the people suggesting precisely such a test.

While it might look like a resounding argument in favour of M&Kb, you're playing a different version of the game, so it's not exactly a completely fair assessment.

Also, unless those two people using the gamepads were not usual XBox Halo players, but regular PC Halo players that were given gamepads instead of their usual M&Kb controllers, that's not exactly fair either. It's like having used a QWERTY keyboard your whole life, then having somebody give you a DVORAK keyboard and immediately clocking your typing speed then concluding DVORAK is worse... obviously unfair.

So I can only repeat myself : for the test to be conclusive, the players have to use the software and hardware they're used to play on (and have reasonable experience on it), the features present like autoaim have to be present (although disableable on demand) in all versions, and they have to compete in the same server-side environment.

I think that I may not have explained myself properly.
I'm suggesting that we get 2 pcs + 1 console controller + 1 pc gamer + 1 console gamer = fairly reasonable test
To clarify both gamers are on pcs but the only variables are control system and skillset or farmilliarity with said controllers.
For the purpose of this experiment we're assuming that they've both played halo before, they're exactly as good at the game as each other, and that there are no differences in gameplay between pc & console

Sorry, missed that post when I posted the above.
Well, that would eliminate HALF of the problem, the familiarity with the input device.
You still have the problem of the console user playing in a slightly unusual environment to him (or with some features different from what he's used to). That is, unless there is some option I am not aware of where you can actually tweak the PC version to react//feel identical to the XBox version.