I agree with this article wholeheartedly. Some of the new "level-up" systems are really lacking in motivational aspects. Nice work.
Ding! Now You Suck Less
- Thread starter Shamus Young
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Registered just to say I don't entirely agree with this article.
While the 6 points mentioned do indeed make a great leveling system, in my opinion the absolute most important aspect that makes a great leveling system is:
Transparency.
The gameplay should not be so shallow that the player tends to focus on leveling rather than the action or strategic portions of the game. Some examples of this include huge +XP floaty text, screen-spanning experience bars, and big flashy level-up effects.
A good game has the player focused on the story, the gameplay and the fun and should never be thinking "hmm I need to do 2 more of these to get a level, because I have 4 bubbles left from a level".
While the 6 points mentioned do indeed make a great leveling system, in my opinion the absolute most important aspect that makes a great leveling system is:
Transparency.
The gameplay should not be so shallow that the player tends to focus on leveling rather than the action or strategic portions of the game. Some examples of this include huge +XP floaty text, screen-spanning experience bars, and big flashy level-up effects.
A good game has the player focused on the story, the gameplay and the fun and should never be thinking "hmm I need to do 2 more of these to get a level, because I have 4 bubbles left from a level".
This is a brilliant example of why I didn't like Oblivion
It broke nearly every single rule and by the time I hit level 20 I found myself not bothering with levelling up at all.
Also it relates back to your economy article because every enemy had the rarest armour and I could get rich by killing anyone because enemies levelled up with me along with their equipment
It broke nearly every single rule and by the time I hit level 20 I found myself not bothering with levelling up at all.
Also it relates back to your economy article because every enemy had the rarest armour and I could get rich by killing anyone because enemies levelled up with me along with their equipment
Though the OP doesn't seem like a big Bethesda fan, I've gotta say, my favorite 'ding' noise is the brassy fanfare from Fallout 3.
I seem to be another one who's looking squarely at Oblivion as an example of how to get leveling wrong.
I played a fair chunk of the game and did alright with the sidequest chains, however I got myself rather frustrated when some overpowered enemies slaughtered an NPC I had along for the ride in the main quest. Wasn't sure how to go about training my character to handle the situation so just stopped. As others have said Oblivion's system works if you break it, deliberately use the skills that don't cause you to level up so you get better at them but don't make the enemies stronger. However by the time I learned that I no longer cared.
I played a fair chunk of the game and did alright with the sidequest chains, however I got myself rather frustrated when some overpowered enemies slaughtered an NPC I had along for the ride in the main quest. Wasn't sure how to go about training my character to handle the situation so just stopped. As others have said Oblivion's system works if you break it, deliberately use the skills that don't cause you to level up so you get better at them but don't make the enemies stronger. However by the time I learned that I no longer cared.
Good article, really sums things up.
Thats what I've always liked about gw, there weren't too many lvls and there weren't too many unchangeable decisions. I never felt rewarded when I made it to 70 in WoW, then theres my friend who can do that in a week.
Thats what I've always liked about gw, there weren't too many lvls and there weren't too many unchangeable decisions. I never felt rewarded when I made it to 70 in WoW, then theres my friend who can do that in a week.
Lubberly article, which just happened to remind me why I much prefer my roleplaying to involve diceclicking rather than buttonpressing.
But on topic, I agree with Stormwaltz's criticism: the key isn't the number of levels - it's the toys. The two are often related, and it's hard to argue that the DING of level up isn't cool; but I'd throw away 80 extra levels for twice the new stuff.
While co-oping in Borderlands I found the most boring stretch of the game was the first few levels, as well as aa particular stretch from about level 9-13. That's 4 levels, there, so it should have been more fun to progress from 9 to 10 to 11 to 12 than from 12 to 13. Not true. 13 was the bomb. Why? Because the 4 levels beforehand had consisted of me using a few tried and true weapons over and over again and watching them wane in potency relative tho the challenge. For some reason Mordecai couldn't find a good weapon to save his life. The closest thing he had managed was to pick up a couple of stunning guns he couldn't use until level 13. Frustration and boredom rose as I was stuck with the same boring guns - guns which had been so fascinating and novel an hour ago - as they had less and less of an impact. I was reduced to watching my level bar creep towards 13.
And when it did, Borderlands was fun again. A one-shot kill revolver! A sniper rifle with a rate of fire 3 times that of any other gun we'd found before! That was epic loot. Too bad it took 4 levels of waiting. (Well, they weren't totally wasted - I did get an extra skill point every level.
)
But on topic, I agree with Stormwaltz's criticism: the key isn't the number of levels - it's the toys. The two are often related, and it's hard to argue that the DING of level up isn't cool; but I'd throw away 80 extra levels for twice the new stuff.
While co-oping in Borderlands I found the most boring stretch of the game was the first few levels, as well as aa particular stretch from about level 9-13. That's 4 levels, there, so it should have been more fun to progress from 9 to 10 to 11 to 12 than from 12 to 13. Not true. 13 was the bomb. Why? Because the 4 levels beforehand had consisted of me using a few tried and true weapons over and over again and watching them wane in potency relative tho the challenge. For some reason Mordecai couldn't find a good weapon to save his life. The closest thing he had managed was to pick up a couple of stunning guns he couldn't use until level 13. Frustration and boredom rose as I was stuck with the same boring guns - guns which had been so fascinating and novel an hour ago - as they had less and less of an impact. I was reduced to watching my level bar creep towards 13.
And when it did, Borderlands was fun again. A one-shot kill revolver! A sniper rifle with a rate of fire 3 times that of any other gun we'd found before! That was epic loot. Too bad it took 4 levels of waiting. (Well, they weren't totally wasted - I did get an extra skill point every level.
)
This isn't new, especially not for Dungeons and Dragons. The roleplaying aspect was never a core component of the ruleset as can be seen by the fluff/crunch ratio within basically any DnD book not made by 3rd party developers. How much roleplaying you will get really depends on your group, even if some systems more adept to storytelling will encourage this a bit more then DnD does. BTW: 4ED is actually very roleplaying friendly because it takes away much of the actual number crunching and book keeping which in my opinion is much more harmfull to atmospheric role playing then levels.Gildedtongue said:
The greatest DING would have to be the one in Fallout 3, the most satisfying sound a game can throw at you, makes you feel like you've just accomplised a feat of epic proportions
Great post. Gotta say this is what I found wrong with Aion and one of the reasons I love Borderlands. Aion was too ridiculous and failed in several categories you talked about. They never let you see the enemy player's level so you might go into a 1v1 fight and soon realize he has 10 levels on you and die almost immediately. That shit was so stupid. They also made it so it took forever and a day to get levels after 30. I heard rumors that it took an entire day to get a level after 45 and I believe it. The game just got bogged down with too much xp to level after 30 and I could not handle it.
Borderlands on the other hand still levels at a good clip the entire way to 50. While its not an MMO I loved the fact that you kept getting levels pretty quickly and kept getting new talent points.
The only RPG ive played where I wasn't really too focused on leveling was Dragon Age where ive already put 35 hours in the game and am only level 16 or 17. I just got lost in the story and never really worried about leveling. Maybe MMOs can take a clue and realize if the story is strong enough people won't worry about how long it takes to get to max level.
Borderlands on the other hand still levels at a good clip the entire way to 50. While its not an MMO I loved the fact that you kept getting levels pretty quickly and kept getting new talent points.
The only RPG ive played where I wasn't really too focused on leveling was Dragon Age where ive already put 35 hours in the game and am only level 16 or 17. I just got lost in the story and never really worried about leveling. Maybe MMOs can take a clue and realize if the story is strong enough people won't worry about how long it takes to get to max level.
This has been my main problem with Oblivion. In Morrowind, you started out incredibly weak. Then, after you Ding'd your way to level 20 or 30, you felt powerful. You were this unstoppable badass. In Oblivion, you never attain that. Especially since the enemies equipment will change as well, to reflect your level. Morrowind had you struggle, steal, explore and kill to get the good stuff. (like Daedric) In Oblivion, I got a full set of armour, plus long sword, from a single bandit. Auto-leveling is just stupid. It may add challenge. but at the cost of the reason we want to level up in the first place.
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but my biggest problem with lvling systems is when they have some BS way of limiting your ability.
In WoW for example there is an unofficial cap for the highest lvl enemy you're able to kill (or even hit) which is roughly 5 lvls above your current level (this is for a character that can't heal it's self). When i play at the best of my ability, the best my rogue can manage is to kill that one mob 5 lvls higher than me. The reason is my weapon skill level is not high enough to hit the monster and that monsters defense level is too high. Note, your weapon level and defense level are capped at 5x your current level and they will increase as you use the weapon or get hit, this seems to be a universal cap for players and mobs. The thing that gets me though is that the sole purpose of these two stats is to keep you from fighting mobs who are too high a level. They do nothing else, their only effect is to lower my chance to hit on an enemy with higher defense, and if they did not exist then my rogue would be able to kill that guy who is maybe 8 or 9 lvls above his own.
Now i understand that this is starting to get ridiculous and that my lvl really means nothing if i can kill that lvl 19 while i'm level 10. But i just feel that if the only thing holding me back is my weapon lvl, and not any of my actual stats or abilities (or tactics), then there is a flaw in the mechanics of the game and these weapon and defense skills are only a shoddy patch to fix this problem.
Borderlands does the same thing, you can go up a level in mid fight and suddenly be steamrolling the enemies that were giving you trouble a second ago. Borderlands doesn't even HAVE stats other than your HP and what you get on your gear (well you do have weapon skills but they give consistent buffs to your weapons).
I just felt the need to mention this here, it relay is a minor thing but poor game mechanics annoy me to no end. And i want to add that I've been playing wow for years and borderlands is an awesome game.
In WoW for example there is an unofficial cap for the highest lvl enemy you're able to kill (or even hit) which is roughly 5 lvls above your current level (this is for a character that can't heal it's self). When i play at the best of my ability, the best my rogue can manage is to kill that one mob 5 lvls higher than me. The reason is my weapon skill level is not high enough to hit the monster and that monsters defense level is too high. Note, your weapon level and defense level are capped at 5x your current level and they will increase as you use the weapon or get hit, this seems to be a universal cap for players and mobs. The thing that gets me though is that the sole purpose of these two stats is to keep you from fighting mobs who are too high a level. They do nothing else, their only effect is to lower my chance to hit on an enemy with higher defense, and if they did not exist then my rogue would be able to kill that guy who is maybe 8 or 9 lvls above his own.
Now i understand that this is starting to get ridiculous and that my lvl really means nothing if i can kill that lvl 19 while i'm level 10. But i just feel that if the only thing holding me back is my weapon lvl, and not any of my actual stats or abilities (or tactics), then there is a flaw in the mechanics of the game and these weapon and defense skills are only a shoddy patch to fix this problem.
Borderlands does the same thing, you can go up a level in mid fight and suddenly be steamrolling the enemies that were giving you trouble a second ago. Borderlands doesn't even HAVE stats other than your HP and what you get on your gear (well you do have weapon skills but they give consistent buffs to your weapons).
I just felt the need to mention this here, it relay is a minor thing but poor game mechanics annoy me to no end. And i want to add that I've been playing wow for years and borderlands is an awesome game.