Ding! Now You Suck Less

[Amazon warrior]

I love this column.
So Oblivion works... if you break the system.

True. But it's pretty counter-intuitive when almost every other RPG system (both TT and C) tells you that more levels=chance to beat the crap out of that boss that whupped you earlier and Oblivion tells you more levels=meh, who cares? You're gonna get whupped ignominiously by the next passing gobbo whatever you do.

 

[Spatzist]

Leveling has always been the icing on the cake for me in RPG's. It can make a good game better, but it can't singlehandedly make the game (for me, at any rate). Oh, and there's an even better article about this on the author's blog: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=221

 

[Crystalgate]

If anything, I think that the limbo between levels is the annoying thing. I don't think that most people need to level up every hour or so if they hit the max level quickly enough or feel like they are powerful enough already.

I rarely play a game without levels and think, "gee, I wish this game had levels so my character wasn't as powerful now so I could be imperceptibly more powerful in an hours time." Maybe some people do, it takes all sorts.

I don't like playing a game at max levels for an extended amount of time. If I hit the max level, I consider it the time to tackle the final challenge of the game. Often I beat games with before hitting max level. I guess we can only agree to disagree here.

That way you still don't get into more trouble than you can handle or expect something tricky only to find out you can do it easily. Isn't that just as bad as rubber band level scaling, except maybe worse as it severely limits the content you can try instead of opening it up?

If you want to get into trouble, you can hit quests which will give you trouble. If you want to be in the dark about how difficult a quest will be, then our desires are different. If the player does his research (in game, not by using GameFAQs), I think he should get a good idea how difficult a quest will be.

Subtle signals are much more interesting than signposting everything with traffic lights. I think that Demon's Souls has a system where players can leave notes for each other in game about what to expect. Useful or misleading.

The signals can be subtle, or even better, the player has to do some (again in game) research to be sure. I do however want the signals to be there.

That's a lot of developer work for a minor player decision that they would probably see as a fail state and reload the game, or write a angry post on a forum for a persistent game.

If the game already features the possibility to become an outlaw by for example stealing enough or killing, flipping the player to outlaw for that event takes no effort. This also means that if the player already is an outlaw, the easy solution can be chosen without penalty. I'm OK with that.

Regardless, I don't consider it viable to allow for multiple different builds, but only some of the builds can finish the game. I understand if that happens when the player gimps his character, but if let's say the player chooses a ranged character, chooses the right stats and skills for ranged combat and then find that only melee or offensive magic builds are viable, I think something is wrong.

If I want to finish the game at level 20 but it isn't mathematically possible until 30 then there is no content I want for my challenge level as I only want to finish the game. I have to grind.

I doubt that's an issue if you're good enough. Most games can be finished at much lower levels than intended. Very few modern games are mathematically impossible at levels you will reach by just going trough the main quest, with or without level scaling.

 

[lluewhyn]

I cannot believe that "Wasteland" has not been mentioned yet. Aside from being the ancestor to Fallout, it did a great job at not-quite-directing the player, but not wasting his time. If you hit the Citadel too early, the guards just laughed at you.

I was thinking about Wastelands when the subject came up about improving skills by actually using them rather than leveling up. Wastelands lets you do both. I remember running up sand dunes to increase my Climb* score, or looking through a series of windows on top of an enemy base to improve my Observation* score, or switching weapons occasionally to practice pistols, hand to hand, assault weapons, etc. If you didn't want to do that grind, you still got to raise points in them by leveling up, but those were points you may have been able to spend elsewhere.

*I don't remember the exact names of all of these skills, just their basic function. It's been over 15 years since I played the game.

 

[EchoHunter]

I agree with this article wholeheartedly. Some of the new "level-up" systems are really lacking in motivational aspects. Nice work.

 

[cannibalbob]

Registered just to say I don't entirely agree with this article.

While the 6 points mentioned do indeed make a great leveling system, in my opinion the absolute most important aspect that makes a great leveling system is:
Transparency.

The gameplay should not be so shallow that the player tends to focus on leveling rather than the action or strategic portions of the game. Some examples of this include huge +XP floaty text, screen-spanning experience bars, and big flashy level-up effects.

A good game has the player focused on the story, the gameplay and the fun and should never be thinking "hmm I need to do 2 more of these to get a level, because I have 4 bubbles left from a level".

 

[Cade the Imperfect]

yay for borderlands! Ding Hardcore xP

 

[The Rascal King]

I could agree with point 5 any more.

 

[Kuchinawa212]

Impressive job. I find myself agreeing with all of your points

 

[The Rockerfly]

This is a brilliant example of why I didn't like Oblivion
It broke nearly every single rule and by the time I hit level 20 I found myself not bothering with levelling up at all.
Also it relates back to your economy article because every enemy had the rarest armour and I could get rich by killing anyone because enemies levelled up with me along with their equipment

 

[DoctorDisaster]

Though the OP doesn't seem like a big Bethesda fan, I've gotta say, my favorite 'ding' noise is the brassy fanfare from Fallout 3.

 

[Witty-Name]

I seem to be another one who's looking squarely at Oblivion as an example of how to get leveling wrong.
I played a fair chunk of the game and did alright with the sidequest chains, however I got myself rather frustrated when some overpowered enemies slaughtered an NPC I had along for the ride in the main quest. Wasn't sure how to go about training my character to handle the situation so just stopped. As others have said Oblivion's system works if you break it, deliberately use the skills that don't cause you to level up so you get better at them but don't make the enemies stronger. However by the time I learned that I no longer cared.

 

[Obrien Xp]

Good article, really sums things up.

Thats what I've always liked about gw, there weren't too many lvls and there weren't too many unchangeable decisions. I never felt rewarded when I made it to 70 in WoW, then theres my friend who can do that in a week.

 

[Stormwaltz]

(leaving)

 

[Saskwach]

Lubberly article, which just happened to remind me why I much prefer my roleplaying to involve diceclicking rather than buttonpressing.
But on topic, I agree with Stormwaltz's criticism: the key isn't the number of levels - it's the toys. The two are often related, and it's hard to argue that the DING of level up isn't cool; but I'd throw away 80 extra levels for twice the new stuff.
While co-oping in Borderlands I found the most boring stretch of the game was the first few levels, as well as aa particular stretch from about level 9-13. That's 4 levels, there, so it should have been more fun to progress from 9 to 10 to 11 to 12 than from 12 to 13. Not true. 13 was the bomb. Why? Because the 4 levels beforehand had consisted of me using a few tried and true weapons over and over again and watching them wane in potency relative tho the challenge. For some reason Mordecai couldn't find a good weapon to save his life. The closest thing he had managed was to pick up a couple of stunning guns he couldn't use until level 13. Frustration and boredom rose as I was stuck with the same boring guns - guns which had been so fascinating and novel an hour ago - as they had less and less of an impact. I was reduced to watching my level bar creep towards 13.
And when it did, Borderlands was fun again. A one-shot kill revolver! A sniper rifle with a rate of fire 3 times that of any other gun we'd found before! That was epic loot. Too bad it took 4 levels of waiting. (Well, they weren't totally wasted - I did get an extra skill point every level. )

 

[Anaphyis]

Unfortunately, that's how things have gone. The toxicity of computer RPGs with its limited "Rollplay" has even infected the tabletop world, especially with 3rd and 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons. It's no longer about characters, backstory, individuality, it's about points and levels and how many people you can slaughter wantonly.

This isn't new, especially not for Dungeons and Dragons. The roleplaying aspect was never a core component of the ruleset as can be seen by the fluff/crunch ratio within basically any DnD book not made by 3rd party developers. How much roleplaying you will get really depends on your group, even if some systems more adept to storytelling will encourage this a bit more then DnD does. BTW: 4ED is actually very roleplaying friendly because it takes away much of the actual number crunching and book keeping which in my opinion is much more harmfull to atmospheric role playing then levels.

 

[JDviewer]

I agree with everything you mentioned. Its especially true that I love fighting against some monsters that I had trouble with when I was low level and then thrashing them after I've played another hours of the game.

 

[Jason Danger Keyes]

The greatest DING would have to be the one in Fallout 3, the most satisfying sound a game can throw at you, makes you feel like you've just accomplised a feat of epic proportions

 

[Poomanchu745]

Great post. Gotta say this is what I found wrong with Aion and one of the reasons I love Borderlands. Aion was too ridiculous and failed in several categories you talked about. They never let you see the enemy player's level so you might go into a 1v1 fight and soon realize he has 10 levels on you and die almost immediately. That shit was so stupid. They also made it so it took forever and a day to get levels after 30. I heard rumors that it took an entire day to get a level after 45 and I believe it. The game just got bogged down with too much xp to level after 30 and I could not handle it.

Borderlands on the other hand still levels at a good clip the entire way to 50. While its not an MMO I loved the fact that you kept getting levels pretty quickly and kept getting new talent points.

The only RPG ive played where I wasn't really too focused on leveling was Dragon Age where ive already put 35 hours in the game and am only level 16 or 17. I just got lost in the story and never really worried about leveling. Maybe MMOs can take a clue and realize if the story is strong enough people won't worry about how long it takes to get to max level.

 

[brunothepig]

This has been my main problem with Oblivion. In Morrowind, you started out incredibly weak. Then, after you Ding'd your way to level 20 or 30, you felt powerful. You were this unstoppable badass. In Oblivion, you never attain that. Especially since the enemies equipment will change as well, to reflect your level. Morrowind had you struggle, steal, explore and kill to get the good stuff. (like Daedric) In Oblivion, I got a full set of armour, plus long sword, from a single bandit. Auto-leveling is just stupid. It may add challenge. but at the cost of the reason we want to level up in the first place.