Discrimination in gaming

[l33t.heathen]

As one of my art friends said:"Screw those whiners,artists should create whatever they want.

Man This is really what it comes down to! The bar for entry is low enough that literally ANYONE can make a game. You want a female lead. Make it. You was a gender fluid yiff half dragon half manatee for a main character? You probably shouldn't but whatever man I'm just a comment online not your mother.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

what's so sick about sexual fantasies?

Not all sexual fantasies are sick. But "The only reason Mario ever did any of that mushroom enduced platforming and fight off a big fire breathing dragon was for some hot princess pussy. Period." is a little sick.

I think the balance is already pretty nice. Looking at my collection of games, both physical and digital, I can play as female in 61% of them. Those games either have the option to play as female or they are female only. Hell, I can even name a bunch of games that have female protagonist or female only protagonist that I still don't own but I'm planning to buy.

My point is that I think people are over dramatic with this issue. You can definitely build up a collection of games with many female protagonists if you only wish to do so.

Sure, in my collection 87% can be played as male so numbers are somewhat towards those but it's not so bad in my opinion.

Small edit: I didn't count games like platformers or puzzle games where gender is non-existent or doesn't really matter.

By my calculations, that's 13% female only, 39% male only, and 48% gender optional. Three times as many of your games are male only as female only. That doesn't strike you as odd at all?

Seems like a result of personal preference, as he said. That static game easily reverse for someone else's collection, mine for instances, where the majority is leaning towards female.

 

[Silence]

snip

snip

Read this and argue with a better understanding of the subject:
https://medium.com/@adrianchm/women-and-video-games-f0eb7a7d75fa

Read it. Now what? Should that make feel like changing something I said earlier in this thread? Because I don't even really see how that was relevant to our discussion about the amount of female characters in games.

It supports your argument.

It shows that there are many games specifically designed for women which are ignored. That means the representation is not as bad as is claimed.
But if you don't want to argue based on facts, well ¯\_(&#12484_/¯.

 

[Danny Dowling]

what's so sick about sexual fantasies?

Not all sexual fantasies are sick. But "The only reason Mario ever did any of that mushroom enduced platforming and fight off a big fire breathing dragon was for some hot princess pussy. Period." is a little sick.

Right well then if we're going to speculate how deep his intentions were for something I already showed good reason for it not being important. then how about this:

Mario and Peach are good friends, they regularly enjoy tea together, playing card games and just generally chewing the fat. Mario works as plumber to the castle that Princess Peach lives in. When Bowser takes her, he takes it upon himself to save her.

Or how about:
Mario works as a plumber in the Mushroom Kingdom. One day, Princess Peach is taken and the Kingdom begin randomly picking citizens and forcing them to go and attempt to save the princess. After a few failures a mild mannered plumber is chosen, against all odds he succeeds and is thanks and knighted for his hardship.

Or....:
Mario and Peach are secretly in love. They care very deeply for one another but are never given the opportunity to marry because Mario is not royal. One day, Bowser takes Peach and Mario, fueled by love, takes up the challenge and rescues her.

Or...:
Mario is a plumber looking to get a leg over. Peach is taken and Mario saves her. on the way home he plans to get her drunk and have his way, but in the end he didn't need to Peach was all over him in the moment.

And my last one:
Miyamoto has said before that the characters in the Mario world are seen by him as actors in a play or a film. That's why one day Mario is kicking Bowsers ass, the next they've fusing go karts or playing a board game together. In the situation of these senarios where Mario saves Peach, it is just a story that has a standard story idea that suits and has been used for hundreds if not thousands of years. it's been used by the greatest playwrights and the greatest novelists of history, and now it's used by Mario.

^
All but the last I made up as I typed (yes I know, I'm very talented), now please, if anyone here honestly thinks there's a bone to pick with the innocent formula of classic Mario games then I'm going to have to ask you to shave your beard, take off that fedora, get out of Starbucks, get a pair of jeans long enough to cover your ankles, stop wearing loafers and stop being such a hipster twat. Because no one like it, and no one thinks you're cool. Peace.

[quick note; the above paragraph is not aimed at any member of the forum and should not be taken as a direct insult, it therefore is not something you need to flag, thanks]

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Can I just make everyone aware of the fact that a blue hedgehog has been saving his home from industrialisation from a tyrant ball shaped flamboyantly evil genius for 20+ years and never actually needed a female to save

Sonic's female counterpart Amy Rose was introduced as a damsel in distress in Sonic the Hedgehog CD. "The story of Sonic CD follows Sonic the Hedgehog as he utilizes time travel to save Amy Rose and Little Planet from Doctor Eggman and Metal Sonic". Sonic also has to save her in Sonic Adventure and Sonic Lost World. Sonic switches damsels in Sonic '06, where he has to save Elise - several times.

Sonic's save-the-damsel shtick hasn't been as exclusive as, say, Mario's routine of saving Peach. But it's there alright.

Oh, see I've played through Sonic CD a few times and I didn't even realise that was the point.

Furthermore, can we all grow up and stop using Mario as a point? You know no one really cares that much about Peach in those games yeah?

Your personal motivation with Mario doesn't preclude the fact that Mario's own motivation (and Luigi's for that matter) is to save Princess Peach andrestorethestatusquooftheworld. Who really should be Queen Peach, since I don't see anybody else using the throne (there's a Mushroom King of questionable canonicity in the early comics, but I don't recall him ever cropping up in the games).

Also, if Peach (or Sonic's damsels) are so token and replaceable as you put it, doesn't that just underline their own lack of substance as characters and the fact that they only exist to enable the male heroes' quest?

See, you're missing the point; mate, it's a game, the point is to play the levels and enjoy the challenge.

Couldn't you say that about any game just to downplay an argument? "It's a game, just play it and enjoy it"?

We've officially hit argument for arguments sake. this is pointless. Someone may as well mention Hitler and the Nazi's and be done with it.

You just did it yourself.

 

[Danny Dowling]

Couldn't you say that about any game just to downplay an argument? "It's a game, just play it and enjoy it"?

This is just another question without substance you're offering with no point to it. If you're just going to do that go somewhere else, there's little substance enough in threads like this without your pointless comments. And I use the term pointless in a literal sense; you've quoted me twice with counter questions that have no point to them.

 

[viscomica]

Couldn't you say that about any game just to downplay an argument? "It's a game, just play it and enjoy it"?

This is just another question without substance you're offering with no point to it. If you're just going to do that go somewhere else, there's little substance enough in threads like this without your pointless comments. And I use the term pointless in a literal sense; you've quoted me twice with counter questions that have no point to them.

I said good day sir. I said good day!

Seriously though, yes, discrimination in gaming exists, but like someone above already commented, it's a generalised thing, not just in games.
Next topic, please.

 

[Scow2]

Every woman looks like a supermodel? Same with movies and tv shows. Also why just mention woman, what about all men have chiseled looks and muscly figures? Again as with tv and movies. Its not just games. Its also advertising and telling us what a person should aspire to look like. Forget woman in games, feminists should concentrate on airbrushed models in magazines first, then singers who take their clothes off to sell songs and then adverts that use woman to sell stuff. Then maybe it will trickle through to gaming.

The thing is... those are real women (Even if touched up in sfx) - those actresses are not the creation of men.

How are they real? Yes the photo shop adverts arnt as they air brush all negatives issues. With others, they are real woman but still using them for a reason and thus girls grow up thinking thats normal. I was working with the police and they say young girl that send naked photos of themselves via phones dont see that as bad because kim kardasian and miley sirus do the same thing in vids and mags. No girl has said i act this way due to video games. So deal with the supposed girl idols first than beating on games which is both easy and pointless.

They're real because it's an actual woman posing for those (Even if they touch her figure up later - though I'm pretty damn sure she consents to that sort of thing). You're talking about choices women make with their lives. The game industry's problem is that it's full of not-real women.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

Every woman looks like a supermodel? Same with movies and tv shows. Also why just mention woman, what about all men have chiseled looks and muscly figures? Again as with tv and movies. Its not just games. Its also advertising and telling us what a person should aspire to look like. Forget woman in games, feminists should concentrate on airbrushed models in magazines first, then singers who take their clothes off to sell songs and then adverts that use woman to sell stuff. Then maybe it will trickle through to gaming.

The thing is... those are real women (Even if touched up in sfx) - those actresses are not the creation of men.

How are they real? Yes the photo shop adverts arnt as they air brush all negatives issues. With others, they are real woman but still using them for a reason and thus girls grow up thinking thats normal. I was working with the police and they say young girl that send naked photos of themselves via phones dont see that as bad because kim kardasian and miley sirus do the same thing in vids and mags. No girl has said i act this way due to video games. So deal with the supposed girl idols first than beating on games which is both easy and pointless.

They're real because it's an actual woman posing for those (Even if they touch her figure up later - though I'm pretty damn sure she consents to that sort of thing). You're talking about choices women make with their lives. The game industry's problem is that it's full of not-real women.

I'm not sure I'm seeing how a heavily fictitious medium full of fictional women is a problem.

 

[Bellvedere]

I think OPs argument is a perfect demonstration of why there are discussions about diversity and descrimination.

The point is that sterotypes exist in the media because that is what is most believable.

Really? Sure it's not "it is believable because these are the most commonly seen sterotypes in media"? Maybe people choose to dicuss this, not because they are women and "playing the victim", but because they want to highlight the distinction between 'believable' and 'familiar'.

Why does the woman always have to play the victim? Why does it all fall down to the big strong man to come save her from the dragon?

Why do we assume that a short, fat, generic plumber is more capable than the princess? Just because he's a dude and she's a chick? This point comes after establishing that there's some pretty kick-ass ladies in gaming, who are also babes. Clearly we have no problem "believing" a lady can just take care of her self no different to if she was 'Marcus Fenix'.

In-fact in addition to her damsel roles, Princess Peach features as a playable character in some Mario games and has her own spin off titles, so we know that she's not perpetually helpless. That means that we should find any situation where generally capable person needs help to be "believable". In which case we should have no problem playing a game in which we rescue a big tough dude without losing any respect for him or finding it "unbelievable".

Then there's implicit assumption that apparently there's not a single believable motivation to rescue someone that's not boning. That would suggest that the only thing someone (frequently a woman in games) has to offer is being beautiful. That's why it doesn't matter that she should need rescuing whereas with a man it apparently should: We don't want anything else from her. And if she's not beautiful, she's useless and there's no motivation to do anything. That's where the call for different body shapes comes in. Also should be highlighted, that the presence of non-attractive women doesn't mean that there can't be any eye candy at all.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

snip

That's implying either multiple body types can't be considered attractive, when people say they want different body types what they actually mean a body type that's not generally perceived as attractive, or both. To me the demand for "unattractive" women in games strikes me as insecure. Contrary to popular belief a lot of so called "eye candy" are All that and a bag of chips, and usually its the people wanting characters to be more than their physique who the one's judging the character solely for their physical appearance.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

Ah yes. Those spooky Tumblr boogeymen. I hear they eat babies and dogs and aim to summon Cthulu. It sounds pretty bizarre but it makes about as much sense as "They want more representation so that means they want less" which is basically your first paragraph.

Well yes, given those types of people want a certain type of "representation", in certain places, at certain times.

 

[Tay Sway]

this is still a thing?

so certain people want to see different trends in gaming. okay. if you have the resources to produce that content, and a market that wants it, whatever. if you can convince other people to see things your way, and you want to try spreading your ideas to further popularize things you want to see, fine. this does not mean other people are obligated to openly accept your opinions, however, and other people are as free to discuss your reasoning as you are to state it.

there's no need for emotionally-charged dialogue in any kind of debate: consider all points of view, agree with what you agree with, disagree with what you don't, and don't stoop to personal attacks. just act like rational, respectful human beings.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Every woman looks like a supermodel? Same with movies and tv shows. Also why just mention woman, what about all men have chiseled looks and muscly figures? Again as with tv and movies. Its not just games. Its also advertising and telling us what a person should aspire to look like. Forget woman in games, feminists should concentrate on airbrushed models in magazines first, then singers who take their clothes off to sell songs and then adverts that use woman to sell stuff. Then maybe it will trickle through to gaming.

The thing is... those are real women (Even if touched up in sfx) - those actresses are not the creation of men.

So are you saying there are no non-hot women who could take those roles?

 

[Scow2]

Every woman looks like a supermodel? Same with movies and tv shows. Also why just mention woman, what about all men have chiseled looks and muscly figures? Again as with tv and movies. Its not just games. Its also advertising and telling us what a person should aspire to look like. Forget woman in games, feminists should concentrate on airbrushed models in magazines first, then singers who take their clothes off to sell songs and then adverts that use woman to sell stuff. Then maybe it will trickle through to gaming.

The thing is... those are real women (Even if touched up in sfx) - those actresses are not the creation of men.

So are you saying there are no non-hot women who could take those roles?

No. But the women who do take the roles are still women.

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

Every woman looks like a supermodel? Same with movies and tv shows. Also why just mention woman, what about all men have chiseled looks and muscly figures? Again as with tv and movies. Its not just games. Its also advertising and telling us what a person should aspire to look like. Forget woman in games, feminists should concentrate on airbrushed models in magazines first, then singers who take their clothes off to sell songs and then adverts that use woman to sell stuff. Then maybe it will trickle through to gaming.

The thing is... those are real women (Even if touched up in sfx) - those actresses are not the creation of men.

So are you saying there are no non-hot women who could take those roles?

No. But the women who do take the roles are still women.

Your point? I mean, the person who designed Bayonetta was a woman y'know.

 

[Homey C-Dawg]

Most of the games that get hit with this kind of criticism are action games. The protagonists in actions games tend to be rather active. Being consistently active in the manner that these character are tends to mold a rather athletic body shape. Athletic body shapes are generally considered attractive.

It's not like there's zero logical reasoning to action heros looking sexy.

 

[Islandbuffilo]

Ah yes. Those spooky Tumblr boogeymen. I hear they eat babies and dogs and aim to summon Cthulu. It sounds pretty bizarre but it makes about as much sense as "They want more representation so that means they want less" which is basically your first paragraph.

Well yes, given those types of people want a certain type of "representation", in certain places, at certain times.

Those places being "Games they play" and the times being "Every once in a while".

Not necessarily the places are usually jus games with hype and the time is usually all the time. If "every once in a while" was actually the case we wouldn't be having this conversation for that would only require them to remove their hands from the side of their eyes and turn their necks a few centimeters to find diversity "every once in a while" and then some.

 

[mecegirl]

Most of the games that get hit with this kind of criticism are action games. The protagonists in actions games tend to be rather active. Being consistently active in the manner that these character are tends to mold a rather athletic body shape. Athletic body shapes are generally considered attractive.

It's not like there's zero logical reasoning to action heros looking sexy.

No. Looking like a swimsuit model(airbrushing included) is not athletic. And I'm not saying that athletic people can't be sexy, but the women would be rendered with more mucle definition if athletic is what they were going for. Rigorous training tends harden the body's lines a bit. So if you take a character like Catwoman in the Arkham games and compare how her body is shaped to the US women's gymnastics team you can see a clear difference.

Take Misty Copeland for example. She a ballerina, and has an unconventional body type for a ballerina because she is curvy. But like most ballerina's the years of training has made her pretty ripped. Especially in the calves. Comparing her body to model Bar Refaeli, and while I'm sure Ms Rafaeli has a steady work out routine, her level of fitness isn't really athletic. She's simply soft and slender, which is something some women are by nature because of a high metabolism, not because they are active.

 

[WilburCharlotte]

If a significant portion of "gamers" want non-traditional characters, stories and gameplay - why doesn't someone just make those games to ADD to the current mix? If there is a large & untapped market I would think that would be a golden opportunity for a person and/or company.

Of course that would mean a substantial amount of effort, talent & money would need to be applied to make and distribute said game(s).
I keep hearing that there is plenty of all three available (Brianna Wu & Zoe Quinn are both female developers & Anita Sarkeesian has no problem raising money), so why hasn't anyone done this?