Discuss and Rate the Last Film You Watched

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Casual Shinji

Should've gone before we left.
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I'm not seeing the issue, honestly. Like, the elves and the dwarves are still segregated races. They're just different colors within that race sometimes. Unless there's some stupid old-school D&D-esc "all the high elves are white and all of the dark elves are black because one is good and one worships evil spider gods" thing going on that I don't know about.

It's not like colorblind casting led to a black person playing some white noble who's introducing chattel slavery to Europe or something.
Yeah, but skin color doesn't tend to differ to that extent from person to person in a community that has generally kept to itself for hunderds if not thousands of years. If there are elves and dwarves that are black (within the Tolkien-verse) then it would probably need to have some history to it. You could say 'eh, it's Fantasy', but I don't know. I'm not saying there should therefor not be any people (or elves and dwarves) of color in Lord of the Rings, just that if you're trying to maintain that level of detail and history to this world AND include some legitmate diversity you're going run into some things that just don't add up. The writers for this show are unlikely going to expand on/add original material to the lore of this universe that might account for this.

Who knows, maybe Middle-Earth would be color blind, but watching it as someone from a world that very much isn't, and seeing how much conflict there is between the different races of Middle-Earth, it would feel kinda dishonest or naive for skin color to not play any part in that. But if they did write so it played a part it would likely change up the world order and social dynamics of the lore in such a way, which the writers would be too scared to attempt.

By adding people of color as a means of representation, but making no mention in the story of skin color or a culture that might form around it, it still feels like they would be ignoring that community as a result.

The thing is that LotR has some problematic or "traditional" elements to its world, and while I'm far from an expert on the lore it's seems pretty baked into its detailed history. The kings and royal bloodlines that are spoken of with unironic reverence, the elves being better than everyone for being elves, the cursed monster race - This is a world with a lot of inequality that the story itself seems totally okay with. By making a cast (more) equally representative in a story that has very clear segregation and inequality, it just comes across rather disingenuous to me.
 

Thaluikhain

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Yeah, but skin color doesn't tend to differ to that extent from person to person in a community that has generally kept to itself for hunderds if not thousands of years.
Ah, but the elves lives for several thousand years. By their standards hundreds or thousands of years is less than a generation, Arwen lived to about 3,000 and only died because she married her first cousin (loads of times removed) and chose to be mortal. Elrond and Galadriel, being her father and her grandmother, were significantly older than that and still left Middle Earth due to white flight rather than death.

The dwarves aren't that long lived, but then they aren't so isolationist either.

But I am confident that Amazon will get it all wrong anyway.
 

Ezekiel

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Oh, I forgot to mention Joker falling off the building and Batman shooting the grappling gun at his foot from several stories up. Ridiculous for a movie Nolan claimed was steeped in grounded reality.

I find it easier to refute Mr Scorsese, when he acts like another whiny, old douche about things, and claims "All superhero movies are just roller coaster rides!", because he's no longer as relevant and part of the conversation. He's really not one to talk. He's been doing the same gangster movies for over 30 years. At least a superhero genre has a whole bunch of variety, different thematic things, takes, and appliance of different civil and social issues depending on where you look. I'll take nearly any of those superhero shows or movies over another semi-glorification of a bunch of Italian mobster jackasses,
I'm sure it wasn't the first time he was asked. His response is understandable, when studios are rejecting so many bigger movies simply because they aren't in the comic book genre. David Fincher talked about that a few years ago.

"Look, many people at studios are still fighting the good fight. There are executives there who are friends of mine. But if you want to make studio movies, you stay in their lanes, which are romantic comedy, affliction Oscar bait, spandex summer, superhero tentpole, moderately budgeted sequel."

Makes me sad to think of all the many movies I never got to see produced because of this. I was tired of most superheroes long before it was cool to hate them, with only a few exceptions that I'd gladly let go if the whole genre would just go away.

I'd rather Scorsese be honest than another diplomatic weasel who never speaks what he feels. In the last thirty years, he directed The Age of Innocence, Kundun, Bringing Out the Dead, The Aviator, Shutter Island, Hugo, The Wolf of Wall Street and Silence. Plenty of non-gangster stuff. If you narrow it to "Italian mobster jackasses," you can also expand it to Gangs of New York and The Departed. The list gets bigger with his documentaries. I wouldn't mind it all being gangster stuff if it was all as entertaining as his best, but I didn't care for The Irishman.

with a runtime of over 2 hours.
Typically, I find Scorsese's longer runtimes very digestible. I normally don't need to pause them. Watched Wolf of Wall Street again last month and found the three hours easier than many other movies where I need an intermission.
 

Thaluikhain

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Oh, I forgot to mention Joker falling off the building and Batman shooting the grappling gun at his foot from several stories up. Ridiculous for a movie Nolan claimed was steeped in grounded reality.
The bit in the 3rd film where the uniformed police march in formation into machine gun fire like what WW1 battles get over-simplified as gets me.

"Look, many people at studios are still fighting the good fight. There are executives there who are friends of mine. But if you want to make studio movies, you stay in their lanes, which are romantic comedy, affliction Oscar bait, spandex summer, superhero tentpole, moderately budgeted sequel."

Makes me sad to think of all the many movies I never got to see produced because of this. I was tired of most superheroes long before it was cool to hate them, with only a few exceptions that I'd gladly let go if the whole genre would just go away.
Eh, I'd agree with that, but I'd not mind keeping making superheroes if they didn't keep making them about the same heroes. We've seen Batman and Spiderman, don't reboot them, do something else for a change. Batman is the least interesting member of the Bat-Family (if you exclude joke characters), lets have Oracle and Nightwing.
 

Ezekiel

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Eh, I'd agree with that, but I'd not mind keeping making superheroes if they didn't keep making them about the same heroes. We've seen Batman and Spiderman, don't reboot them, do something else for a change. Batman is the least interesting member of the Bat-Family (if you exclude joke characters), lets have Oracle and Nightwing.
I'm not interested in Nightwing, but I want a bat-family movie that doesn't try to be gritty and also doesn't ham things up and joke at itself so much like Schumacher's movies. Batman, Robin and Batgirl. Might have cared about the upcoming Batgirl movie if she was more comic or animated series-accurate. A cute redhead in sexier attire. Her look in the photos bores me.
 

BrawlMan

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sure it wasn't the first time he was asked. His response is understandable, when studios are rejecting so many bigger movies simply because they aren't in the comic book genre. David Fincher talked about that a few years ago.

"Look, many people at studios are still fighting the good fight. There are executives there who are friends of mine. But if you want to make studio movies, you stay in their lanes, which are romantic comedy, affliction Oscar bait, spandex summer, superhero tentpole, moderately budgeted sequel."
Makes me sad to think of all the many movies I never got to see produced because of this. I was tired of most superheroes long before it was cool to hate them, with only a few exceptions that I'd gladly let go if the whole genre would just go away.
Then blame the Hollywood Hype Machine System. Not the genre. This is ironic considering, Scorsese was heavily part the of hype machine and more than happy to be one of the directors to lead the pack. The only difference being you're not leading any more, and a change of trends and the guard. This is nothing new to life. So stop acting like it is, you're the victim Scorsese.

Second, while it is harder for certain types of films to come out, it the tragedy he is making out to be. There are plenty of other avenues: Streaming service, online, and direct-to-DVD. Funny how he completely forgets to mention those. Didn't Irishman air on Netflix? So he has no room to cry and pout. Also, give other people fucking chance, and stop with the "all about me" you old man. So there is plenty of non-superhero films out there, you just have to take some effort on you part to find them, @Ezekiel.

I'd rather Scorsese be honest than another diplomatic weasel who never speaks what he feels. In the last thirty years, he directed The Age of Innocence, Kundun, Bringing Out the Dead, The Aviator, Shutter Island, Hugo, The Wolf of Wall Street and Silence. Plenty of non-gangster stuff. If you narrow it to "Italian mobster jackasses," you can also expand it to Gangs of New York and The Departed. The list gets bigger with his documentaries. I wouldn't mind it all being gangster stuff if it was all as entertaining as his best, but I didn't care for The Irishman.
That was mainly hyperbole, but you get my point. The point being, this is the cries of an old man not getting his way, nor as relevant as he used to be. All of us either hated The Irishman, or did not care for it in my family. Keep in mind, my mom is a big fan of most of his films.

I'd rather Scorsese be honest than another diplomatic weasel who never speaks what he feels.
I don't want a weasel, but he was not completely honest with himself or others either. Funny story, he recanted, because Score boy got so much backlash from it. While there are fans that went overboard, he was not helping at all. There is an interview on YouTube you can find where he and several other actors that have this discussion. Which leads to a "Why didn't you just say that in the first place and not make baseless assumptions?!" most people reacted towards. The damage was already done, but most people chose to move on.

EDIT: Coppola can fuck off even harder.

 
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BrawlMan

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Typically, I find Scorsese's longer runtimes very digestible. I normally don't need to pause them. Watched Wolf of Wall Street again last month and found the three hours easier than many other movies where I need an intermission.
It depends on the movie. Some work; other don't for me.
 

Ezekiel

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Second, while it is harder for certain types of films to come out
You can stop there, because that's the whole point and I'd never pretend other movies aren't getting made. It's very obvious that other ideas that could potentially be very entertaining if greenlit are being rejected by the studios who can only afford to produce so many expensive blockbusters every year, at the peak of superhero popularity. I can see where Scorsese was coming from, even if the way he said it didn't make much sense. I believe he wanted The Irishman to be a wide theatrical release. Can't really blame him when it's always been that way for his dramatic features. Movie wasn't very good, though. I don't wanna sound like I'm defending it. Would never rewatch.
 

BrawlMan

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You can stop there, because that's the whole point and I'd never pretend other movies aren't getting made.
Good, we have an understanding.

It's very obvious that other ideas that could potentially be very entertaining, if greenlit are being rejected by the studios who can only afford to produce so many expensive blockbusters every year, at the peak of superhero popularity.
Once again, nothing new to the Hollywood hype machine and has always been a problem whenever a new trend came along. Remember when everyone and their mother were copying the Bourne Identity? Shaky cams and quick cuts everywhere! "Realism"! Thank God John Wick and Asian Martial Arts movies from the 2010s showed how stupid this fad was. I honestly don't care much for most blockbusters (super hero or not) any more, and I prefer just regular good movies most of the time. What type of movie, varies of course, but that is why there is so much variety to chose from. New or old.
I can see where Scorsese was coming from, even if the way he said it didn't make much sense. I believe he wanted The Irishman to be a wide theatrical release. Can't really blame him when it's always been that way for his dramatic features.
He can stop with wangsting, because he made money from that, and still gets money from all of his past projects. At the end of the day, Scorsese lost very little. He's still fucking rich, and can still get work. This is why I prefer directors like John Carpenter.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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The Batman (2022)

Of all the Batman adaptations made so far this is, definitely, one of them.
What is there to say about Matt Reeves' take on the material? On one hand, actually quite a bit, on the other though, I'm already exhausted thinking about it. Movies can be fun to write about for very different reasons. It's enjoyable to vent frustration on a truly dreadful one, as much as it is to to have an opportunity to heap praise onto a great one. Let's get this out of the way right away, The Batman is neither. Yet it doesn't have the decency of bland mediocrity either. The Batman is a wild rollercoaster ride of fluctuating quality and I'm not quite sure yet where it settles.

You know who Batman is. The movie knows you know who Batman is. It doesn't go over his origin story again. The Batman' Batman is a relatively young one, not a complete beginner, but not quite settled in his role either. Gotham City is as corrupt a cesspool as it's ever been. A masked terrorist calling himself The Riddler is targeting Gotham's rich and powerful. Batman is on the case.
Things sure have been looking bleak for cinematic Batman lately. He actually managed to catch a short break after Burton's gothic pulp adventures to do some more lighthearted swashbuckling in Schumacher's duology, only to be pulled into an entire trilogy of self important action schlock by Nolan, until facing Superman as a PTSD ridden madman in Batman v Superman. And just as he was about to see the light again in Justice League, Reeves'decided to pull him into his bleakest outing yet
Straight up, The Batman is a nightmare. Burton's Gotham was gothic, Nolan's was gritty, Reeves', however, is hell.
The Batman takes the noir trappings present in most versions of the material and injects them with steroids so potent they'd make Bane blush. The Batman is the 3 hour long, poorly lit, sepia toned, expressionist nightmare that's as much the natural evolution of the franchise as it's toeing the line separating it from self parody. The funny thing is, it's probably closer to what people were accusing Snyder's movies to be than anything Snyder has ever made. The Batman is a gloomy, convoluted, self serious brick of a film that treats levity as something to be avoided at all cost.

Yeah, but, is it any good, though? And this is where things get complicated. I never liked the Nolan movies, mainly for two reasons: The direction and the script. Nolan's directorial style owes a big deal to Michael Mann, yet Nolan's grey, concrete cityscapes completely fail to capture the beauty Mann finds in the urban wasteland of the modern megacity. Reeves certainly brings a sense of mystique back to Gotham City, taking it away from Nolan's matter of fact depiction of Chicago and into the oppressive majesty of a gothic hellscape deluged by constant rain and near constant night. it's very opening shows a gamg of hooligans who look like they're right out of the The Warriors and a single shot of its rain slick streets has more texture to it than Nolan's entire trilogy. The Batman certainly has something that the previous Batman trilogy was sorely missing, which is style and personality. It's about as grimdark as you can get (Tonally, that is, the movie still pussyfoots around depictions of explicit violence) while still making a mainstream blockbuster. It makes Batman v Superman look like The Superfriends. It's kinda cool, until it starts to sink in that there's three hours of it, where it becomes a test of endurance.

And that's probably the best point to segue into a discussion of its actual plot. The Batman has, in its center, a noir style crime drama and I will admit, I couldn't give you an accurate recap of the criminal conspiracy it revolves around even now, mere hours after seeing it. There's something about drug trade, a murdered Russian woman, a charity founded by Bruce Wayne's father, the mob, corrupt cops... And I'm fine with that, honestly. Having Batman engage with an actual crime mystery is an approach that was long overdue, even if it gets a bit opaque. Tying it together with its interpretation of the Riddler, in his way himself a vigilante seeking vengeance (and isn't that a word that comes up a lot in this movie) is clever. But it's the specifics where The Batman gets caught up in its own odd quirks. Despite constantly evoking the corruption of Gotham City, it still has a naively optimistic depictions of its police force. Its corruption is brought up, occasionally, yet Batman still acts as almost an inofficial deputy to it, working directly alongside police, even outside of the obligatory inclusion of Jim Gordon as archetypal "good cop". Even all personal ideology aside, having institutional law enforcement work side by side with a jaded vigilante makes for a jarring image.
Batman himself, as played by Robert Pattinson, is probably one of the most interesting parts of the movie. Or, well, not so much Batman, who's about what you've come to expect, but Bruce Wayne. In the (unfortunately infrequent) moments where we see Pattinson's Wayne out of his custom, he nakes for a surprisingly compelling presence, playing the orphan billionaire almost like a junkie, a broken, pale, sickly looking man who stands in stark contrast to the tough guy he portrays after putting on the cape. Some very corny narration aside, I found that interpretation interesting.
The other big standout is probably Zoe Kravitz' Catwoman, who, a pretty poor costume aside, does a fantastic take on the old femme fatale archetype and serves as almost a secondary protagonist to the story.
John Tutorro does a good job as a mob boss and Colin Farrell is almost unrecognizable as The Penguin but the elephant in the room is certainly Paul Dano's Riddler.
I think I had the problem with him a lot of people had with Jesse Eisenbergs take on Lex Luthor. When playing a genius crazy person, there's only so far you can go with the crazy until it crosses the line to the ridiculous and to me, Dano did cross it. Not only does Dano's Riddler look like he's about fifteen years old, his actual mannerisms gleefully disregard that sage advice Robert Downey Jr. gave to Ben Stiller in Tropic Thunder. He comes off as genuinely unhinged, sure, but scary he's not.
It's also quite representative of the movies main issue, where it falls into a lot of the cryptoconservative trappings that also dragged Nolan's movies down. Where it's the heroes who protect the status quo (one of its few spots of optimisms being the election of a "better" mayor) and the villains trying to topple it being depicted as deranged, violent madman. As a matter of fact, it reminded me so much of Nolan that I had to double check whether him or Goyer were involved with the script, but surprisingly, they weren't.

I feel like one genuinely great performance comparable to, say, that of Ledger in Dark Knight, could have elevated it from being a weird and kind of awkward oddity to an actually good movie, if not exactly a great one. The closest it has to that is probably Kravitz's Catwoman. The Batman is the longest Batman movie (if you don't count v Superman). The Batman is the most narratively complex Batman movie. The Batman is the darkest, edgiest Batman movie. The Batman might even be the most stylish Batman movie, though I think I still prefer the Burton ones. But I don't think The Batman is remotely the best Batman movie. In the end, I liked it more than Nolan's, mostly on the virtues of its presentation. There is something I admire about the way it goes all in on its over the top 90's/00's edgyness. At moments, it reminded me of The Crow, of all things. I respect how long and complicated and ambitious it is. I just don't think it's all that good, at the end of the day.

Maybe this needed to be made. Hell, maybe it is the only Batman movie that could have been made, considering what came before it. It certainly seems like the logical next step in the properties evolution. An rainy noir, completely purging itself from Snyder's baroque romanticism and doubling down on grit and gloom. I'm not saying it shouldn't exist, quite the opposite, I reckon it had to. It was certainly an interesting watch, I'll give it that, though whenever I felt like I was finally tuning in to its wavelength it did something that took me out of it. It's not quite like any other Batman movies. But considering the ending is teasing a sequel (It's suggested the Joker's gonna show up. Don't get your hopes up, it's not Joaquin Phoenix.) part of me is dreading the prospect that there's gonna be more of it.
 
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Agema

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Ah, but the elves lives for several thousand years.
Technically, they're immortal (physical destruction aside).

Some also get reborn. Finrod Felagund (a brother of Galadriel), despite taking part in the Noldor's exile from Valinor against divine permission, is promptly re-embodied because otherwise he was spotlessly honourable and heroic, although he remained in the West. There are a few others - although it's not clear as Tolkein re-wrote his work a lot, the Glorfindel that rescues the hobbits from the Ringwraiths is in some versions the reincarnation of Glorfindel who single-handedly slew a Balrog and died protecting refugees during the fall of Gondolin many thousands of years earlier.
 

BrawlMan

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Where it's the heroes who protect the status quo (one of its few spots of optimisms being the election of a "better" mayor) and the villains trying to topple it being depicted as deranged, violent madman. As a matter of fact, it reminded me so much of Nolan that I had to double check whether him or Goyer were involved with the script, but surprisingly, they weren't.
It is pointed out that as far as The Riddler and his followers are concerend, it does not matter if the new elect mayor is "better" or "worse", things will be the same. They would consider the new mayor would be "too weak" and ineffectual to matter. They're mad men, because they feel nothing matters and everything would be better by their own hands of vigilantism. Anyone and every one is practically free game, status quo, change of status quo, or not.

It's also quite representative of the movies main issue, where it falls into a lot of the cryptoconservative trappings that also dragged Nolan's movies down.
I never got that feeling from this, nor the Nolan movies. I know there was that thing with the information of all Gotham citizens tapping towards the end of Dark Knight, but both Lucius Fox, and the film points out that it's not right and one time usage. Due to desperate measures. Batman even agrees. Hence why he gave Fox the password to disable it permanently when the Joker was apprehended. You can arguably make a case for Batman Begins, but I find it minimal at best.

Not only does Dano's Riddler look like he's about fifteen years old, his actual mannerisms gleefully disregard that sage advice Robert Downey Jr. gave to Ben Stiller in Tropic Thunder. He comes off as genuinely unhinged, sure, but scary he's not.
Speak for yourself. I found him actually creepy.

. I never liked the Nolan movies, mainly for two reasons: The direction and the script. Nolan's directorial style owes a big deal to Michael Mann, yet Nolan's grey, concrete cityscapes completely fail to capture the beauty Mann finds in the urban wasteland of the modern megacity. Reeves certainly brings a sense of mystique back to Gotham City, taking it away from Nolan's matter of fact depiction of Chicago and into the oppressive majesty of a gothic hellscape deluged by constant rain and near constant night. it's very opening shows a gamg of hooligans who look like they're right out of the The Warriors and a single shot of its rain slick streets has more texture to it than Nolan's entire trilogy. The Batman certainly has something that the previous Batman trilogy was sorely missing, which is style and personality.
Batman Begins has plenty and the most style of TDK Trilogy in terms of how Gotham looks. I do admit that, the sequels lost that style and Gotham looks generic, because of it. This is something The Batman nails over TDK as a whole.
 
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BrawlMan

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. The Batman is the longest Batman movie (if you don't count v Superman). The Batman is the most narratively complex Batman movie. The Batman is the darkest, edgiest Batman movie. The Batman might even be the most stylish Batman movie, though I think I still prefer the Burton ones. But I don't think The Batman is remotely the best Batman movie. In the end, I liked it more than Nolan's, mostly on the virtues of its presentation. There is something I admire about the way it goes all in on its over the top 90's/00's edgyness. At moments, it reminded me of The Crow, of all things. I respect how long and complicated and ambitious it is. I just don't think it's all that good, at the end of the day.
The best Batman movies are Mask of the Phantasm, Batman'89, and The Dark Knight. The Batman is definitely on my top 5 list and I am still working on the placing in that rank. The Batman is dark, but it's not that over-the-top and edgy. I'd say that goes to Return of the Joker, in terms of being edgy (in a good way) overall.

If we're only counting live action, then TB is only barely darker than TDK, and darker than the two Tim Burton directed movies.
 
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Dwarvenhobble

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Yes.

The films peaked early, that doesn't mean there wasn't good stuff afterwards.



Sorry, what knockoffs has Game of Thrones actually produced? Because I certainly agree that it shook up the fantasy genre, but what's actually been produced that uses GoT as a clear template? If we're talking about TV, maybe The Witcher, but that's a pre-existing IP, and having read the first Witcher book, there's no shortage of sex and blood in it.
Wheel of Time was aiming to be Amazon's Game of Thrones. The Expanse was somewhat Game of Thrones in SPPPPPAAAAACCCCCEEEE. Yes IP expected before or around the same time but is being sort of squashed into the Game of Thrones style mould.
 

Dwarvenhobble

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Shitty debasement of great IP, much like Disney is busy using Star Wars for.

There's a lot to be said for the principle of leaving classics well alone, rather than heaping out a load of unconvincing tosh for a quick buck that drags the reputation of the whole into the mud. Take the Aliens, Terminator and Predator franchises: does anyone think that anything after Aliens 2 / Terminator 2 / Predator have done them any favours? Clearly not.

The Hobbit trilogy did a pretty good job of murdering Tolkein on celluloid - the worst sort of bloated, overindulgent, tedious trash. Who seriously thinks some hack's sub-Tolkeinesque spin-off is going to match up to the real thing?
Raises Hand.

Are we counting the Alien vs Predator vs The Terminator comic?
 

Hawki

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Elves and dwarves, perhaps (though if they made all the Dwarves Jewish, that'd work).
Da fuq?

Having fair-skinned Haradrim, not so much, in that you've always got some ethnic minorities around. Black people existed in medieval Europe, white people in medieval Africa, just not comparatively that matter.
Not as much, but still a lot, giving the nature of the setting. If you have a Haradrim in Numenor, or a Rohirrim in Khand, for instance, there should really be a good explanation behind it.

Also, saying "this is how it was in the real world" is a non-sequitur, since high fantasy settings generally AREN'T the real world. Yes, you can pull a "technically" with Middle-earth, the conceit that it's our world in the distant past, but it's a past so far removed from real-world history that it's barely worth mentioning.

He's been doing the same gangster movies for over 30 years.
Um, Hugo? Silent? Wolf of Wall Street? All of those range from good to great, and none of them are gangster films (in the traditional sense for Wolf, at least).

Wheel of Time was aiming to be Amazon's Game of Thrones. The Expanse was somewhat Game of Thrones in SPPPPPAAAAACCCCCEEEE. Yes IP expected before or around the same time but is being sort of squashed into the Game of Thrones style mould.
Aiming to be GoT in terms of "the next big thing" or GoT in terms of tone/setting/story? Because those are different things.

Having watched season 1 of WoT and the first two seasons of The Expanse, they really aren't GoT-like. WoT, like the books it's based on, is closer to Lord of the Rings. As for the Expanse...sure, you can point to some generic similarities (there's no good guys, life's terrible for everyone, etc.), but "generic" is the key word there.