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Xprimentyl

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Pan's Labyrinth (2006)

Dark Fantasy movie by the patron saint of dark fantasy, Guillermo del Toro. Somehow I always tend to think of this as his first well known movie but it isn't, he had already done Blade II and the first Hellboy by that point, so there's goes my opening.

Anyway, Pan's Labyrinth follows half orphan girl Ophelia in post civil war Spain. Ophelia and her mother are called to the outpost of her stepfather Capitan Vidal, a military officer ordered to crack down on a resistance cell. Surrounded by the violence of war and her stepfathers ill temperament, she stumbles upon a portal to a mythical underworld, an envoy of which, the more or less titular Faun, gives her three tasks to do to claim her position as princess of the underworld.

With the benefit of hindsight, I couldn't help but compare this to a later movie of del Toro's, namely his adaptation of Pinocchio. A story he chose to push forward in time to World War 2 Italy under Benito Mussolini. Both being stories about the way growing up under dictatorship or, to some extent, just growing up in a authoritarian household in general, robs children of their childhood. Which, don't get me wrong, is a valid point to make. However, I will say Pinocchio, overall, worked for me, where Pan's Labyrinth didn't.

See, del Toro's Pinocchio feels very much in conversation with its source material. The original childrens book itself promoted a very authoritarian view on childhood. A child ought to heed their parents and teachers, learn discipline and obedience and be not corrupted by promises of easy wealth, pleasure or leasure, lest only misfortune awaits them. Del Toro's adaptation opted to challenge this moral, sending Pinocchio not to an island of pleasure where sinister figures corrupt children with fun and games to turn them into donkeys but instead to a military bootcamp to turn him into a soldier. The argument the director was making with his interpretation of the story was that violently forcing discipline and obedience onto children was, itself, a form of corruption. It doesn't make happy people or wise people or even productive people, unless all you're producing is violence, it makes people who die young for purposes they never learn to question.

Pan"s Labyrinth, to me, just never arrives at any kind of poignant point that would satisfyingly tie it together like that. It never moves much beyond "It sure is bleak for children to grow up like that" which, certainly, it is, I don't take issue with that. If I had to offer up my reading, I'd say that PL's core theme is that of defying authority, what ever victory Ophelia does manage to eke out, she does by contradicting the orders of the two authority figures left in her life (although there is another sequence earlier on where I'm hard pressed to see any way her disregarding the instructions she was given was justified or even, really, understandable) and it is implied that following her personal moral judgement rather than doing what she's told is the only reason she found salvation after sacrificing herself. That said though, let me be straight here, no matter how edgy and dark and goth you are, that kind of moral, "sacrifice yourself for the greater good" is just not one you should make when your protagonist is a child. Not to sound like I'm clutching my pearls here, but there's hardly a cause in the world great enough for a child to be asked to sacrifice their future over it, come on Guillermo.

All things considered, I had to think about Mirror Mask a couple of times, which might be a bad comparison because despite both of them being heavily stylized, vaguely goth fantasy movies about a young girl being taught harsh life lessons by fantastical creatures from another world reflecting her childlike imagination, Mirror Mask wasn't trying to go for outright tragedy the way this did. But also, that's kinda my point y'know. There's still too much whimsy, albeit dark whimsy, in PL's presentation to end on quite this fatalistic a note, there's a reason practically all other movies with this kind of premise at least end with the possibility that the children they follow have a future on this world to look forward to. It's funny because Mirror Mask's author, Neil Gaiman, turned out to be quite a vile customer while I have no reason to assume Guillermo del Toro is anything other than a perfectly decent fellow but if I was asked which of the two movies was written by a cynical, manipulative bastard I'd have guessed wrong.

But bear with me here, I'm not trying to drag Guillermo del Toro, I don't think that the problems I have with Pan's Labyrinth as a story have anything to do with any personal failings on his part, I just think it's a script that doesn't really come together, at least not for me. It feels like it could have used another draft or two for it to really come together. To actually tie its themes and ideas together into something that feels less awkward. Like most people, I do appreciate most of del Toro's visual style, some rather obnoxious colour filter nonwithstanding and I do think his interest in the unwarranted suffering of children comes from a place of genuine compassion, I just didn't really feel this compassion came through properly in Pan's Labyrinth.
See, I always viewed this film as a tragedy told through the eyes of child who uses fantasy as a coping mechanism. It IS a bleak world, and her take on it, her way of dealing, was to conceptualize the bleakness surrounding her as something she could control, imagine, perceive from a place of innocence and wonder. I think the film does really well in that I walked away personally understanding that the world she lived in and the one she imagined to digest it were necessarily two very different ones.

The comparison to del Toro's version of Pinocchio is a bit unfair. With that, he was adapting an established story, whereas with Pan's Labyrinth, he was only using familiar fantasy characters in the framework of a new, tragic tale removed from traditional stories. Pan's Labyrinth is a sad story, and sad stories don't always wrap up neatly for the warm and fuzzies of the audience. We're left with Ophelia completely enamored with the fantasy quest she's on, and we [adults] are left to feel the weight of what she's actually going through in reality. It's hard, it's sad, and it was a impactful story.
 
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thebobmaster

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See, I always viewed this film as a tragedy told through the eyes of child who uses fantasy as a coping mechanism. It IS a bleak world, and her take on it, her way of dealing, was to conceptualize the bleakness surrounding her as something she could control, imagine, perceive from a place of innocence and wonder. I think the film does really well in that I walked away personally understanding that the world she lived in and the one she imagined to digest it were necessarily two very different ones.

The comparison to del Toro's version of Pinocchio is a bit unfair. With that, he was adapting an established story, whereas with Pan's Labyrinth, he was only using familiar fantasy characters in the framework of a new, tragic tale removed from traditional stories. Pan's Labyrinth is a sad story, and sad stories don't always wrap up neatly for the warm and fuzzies of the audience. We're left with Ophelia completely enamored with the fantasy quest she's on, and we [adults] are left to feel the weight of what she's actually going through in reality. It's hard, it's sad, and it was a impactful story.
For what it's worth, GDT has always said that for him, everything that Ofelia experienced was real, but he's also always added that that is his own interpretation, and as the creator, he doesn't see his interpretation as any more valid than anyone else's.
 
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Johnny Novgorod

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Naked Gun (The New Version)

It was good enough. Not as funny as the Leslie Nielsen movies but I wasn't expecting it to be. Neeson was probably the best bet, but it's a problem when you start seeing the jokes ahead of time. I know MacFarlane is "just" producing and it was acshually directed by Akiva Schaeffer ("the other fella", as Norm once called him) but sometimes it felt more like Family Guy humor than Naked Gun humor.
 
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BrawlMan

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it felt more like Family Guy humor than Naked Gun humor.
Honestly, I felt little FG humor, aside from one part towards the end and the part with the snow man threesome. Largely restrained compared to what McFarlane normally does or with his Ted films.
 

Xprimentyl

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For what it's worth, GDT has always said that for him, everything that Ofelia experienced was real, but he's also always added that that is his own interpretation, and as the creator, he doesn't see his interpretation as any more valid than anyone else's.
That's the bittersweet beauty of it; either it was real, and she passed into a fantasy world as a princess who won the day, or it was in her mind, a mind that was tangling harsh realities into one where she could conceive and overcome the actual atrocities in her own way, but with a tragic ending. Either way, it is a sad story, one told very beautifully and artfully. I don't think it failed to meet any expectations, specifically compared to GDT's Pinocchio which was very intentionally telling a known story. That even GDT leaves it open to interpretation is even better; any individual can walk away feeling fantasy redeemed Ofelia or that the cruelty of the real world consumed her. It's sad either way, that this world requires a level of escape that defies belief.
 
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Johnny Novgorod

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Bring Her Back

From the brothers (?) who did Talk to Me. It's impressive for a second movie, or like for a movie at all, just how precise yet effortless everything feels. It's tense, it's got great atmosphere and again seems to be doing its own thing rather than following a trend or building on clichés.

It's also the cinematic equivalent of ragebait. I always say Jack Torrance and Annie Wilkes are too fun to hate as the engrossed tormentors that they really are. Not the case here, lol. But then it has the effect of making me aware that I'm getting ragebaited while watching, so I don't? So it just becomes annoying that the movie keeps trying.
 
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Old_Hunter_77

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La Femme Nikita (1990)

I don't remember what specifically kicked off my desire to watch this and dig into the whole Nikita-verse specifically but I know I like to watch a leggy lady kick some ass so I felt it was about time to check out the original of my demographic's generation of this sort of entertainment. I did watch the Alias series recently and that must have been heavily inspired by Nikita, and Ballerina recently. I mostly remember Nikita by the Canadian TV show that was broadcasted on American cable but I never really watched it.

Well the original film is French and being 1990, it is very much an 80s movie. The street punk aesthetic, the portrayal of city streets as horrific dirty cime-ridden hell-holes, the synth music, etc.
Apparently the film was created as a way for the director to get his girlfriend a starring role and the whole thing looks delightfully low budget. I was expecting the title character to be like a girl Bond- savvy, elegant, slick. Instead, she's basically a feral animal, unable to contain her rage. But it's justified/understandable because her origin is that of a desperate street junkie who just happens to have incredible survival instincts.
The whole plot of an intelligence agency turning such a person into an assassin is so preposterous, I mean the risk factor clearly outweighing the benefits, but who cares about that.

The movie introduces some ideas but doesn't have time to dig into them. Like part of her training is this woman who teaches her to dress up and wear makeup and user her "femininity," so I'm thinking this means she's going to use charm or seduction (like the TV show The Americans) but that never happens. Nor does she learn martial arts, though she is really good with a gun (that for some reason looked so big to me, where handguns always that huge in 1990?!). She is fueled completely by rage, instinct, and guts, which does make the action heavy scenes pretty cool in their own way.

The drama and characters are pretty light weight and empty feeling. There's a love story in the latter of the film that leaves no impression.

Definitely worth watching if, like me, you have any interest in this bit of pop culture history. The movie is interesting for what it was, at times entertaining, at times stupid.

Next I'm gonna check out the TV show with my wife, who did watch it years ago but is curious to see what she remembers and how it lands after all these years.

I'm also aware there were remakes in Hong Kong and the US and maybe I'll check those out at some point.
 
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Gordon_4

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La Femme Nikita (1990)

I don't remember what specifically kicked off my desire to watch this and dig into the whole Nikita-verse specifically but I know I like to watch a leggy lady kick some ass so I felt it was about time to check out the original of my demographic's generation of this sort of entertainment. I did watch the Alias series recently and that must have been heavily inspired by Nikita, and Ballerina recently. I mostly remember Nikita by the Canadian TV show that was broadcasted on American cable but I never really watched it.

Well the original film is French and being 1990, it is very much an 80s movie. The street punk aesthetic, the portrayal of city streets as horrific dirty cime-ridden hell-holes, the synth music, etc.
Apparently the film was created as a way for the director to get his girlfriend a starring role and the whole thing looks delightfully low budget. I was expecting the title character to be like a girl Bond- savvy, elegant, slick. Instead, she's basically a feral animal, unable to contain her rage. But it's justified/understandable because her origin is that of a desperate street junkie who just happens to have incredible survival instincts.
The whole plot of an intelligence agency turning such a person into an assassin is so preposterous, I mean the risk factor clearly outweighing the benefits, but who cares about that.

The movie introduces some ideas but doesn't have time to dig into them. Like part of her training is this woman who teaches her to dress up and wear makeup and user her "femininity," so I'm thinking this means she's going to use charm or seduction (like the TV show The Americans) but that never happens. Nor does she learn martial arts, though she is really good with a gun (that for some reason looked so big to me, where handguns always that huge in 1990?!). She is fueled completely by rage, instinct, and guts, which does make the action heavy scenes pretty cool in their own way.

The drama and characters are pretty light weight and empty feeling. There's a love story in the latter of the film that leaves no impression.

Definitely worth watching if, like me, you have any interest in this bit of pop culture history. The movie is interesting for what it was, at times entertaining, at times stupid.

Next I'm gonna check out the TV show with my wife, who did watch it years ago but is curious to see what she remembers and how it lands after all these years.

I'm also aware there were remakes in Hong Kong and the US and maybe I'll check those out at some point.
The original French film poster (and presumably the movie itself) has her holding a Desert Eagle, which is a fairly large handgun and a 'go-to' cool gun in movies and video games. Damn thing is like 10 inches from barrel to beaver tail.

And the US Remake is called "Point of No Return", or if you're outside the US its "The Assassin"
 
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thebobmaster

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thebobmaster

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Thaluikhain

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Luc Besson always seems to be romantically involved with his leading ladies, though this one was 30 years old, rather old for him.
 

Bob_McMillan

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Watched Nobody starring Bob Odenkirk. I've already watched it, my review is somewhere on this thread, but my girlfriend hadn't yet. She liked it, but her biggest complaint was that it "was clearly from the Guardians of the Galaxy era" where every movie was incessantly blasting quirky songs during action scenes. I didn't really notice it at the time, but yeah I do think it was a bit overdone.

Gonna be watching Nobody 2 for christmas eve, although that I have never seen anyone talk about it doesn't bode well.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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The Last Gunfight

A terrible action movie probably shot for cheap in Romania or Bulgaria because the streets look like an abandoned Counter Strike map and all the women have ducklips and pornstar dead eyes. "Stars" the ever doddering Jon Voight, who clearly never figured out what the hell was he doing and never gave the crew more than one take. Half the performance feels like its either outtakes or bad reaction coverage.

I always think naming your zero budget movie "The Last -" is presumptuous as hell and a cheap way of adding production value to your movie.
 
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thebobmaster

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And with this, I have accomplished my goal of one Christmas movie a day up to Christmas. No promises I'll be able to do one on Christmas for obvious reasons.

 
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Watched Nobody starring Bob Odenkirk. I've already watched it, my review is somewhere on this thread, but my girlfriend hadn't yet. She liked it, but her biggest complaint was that it "was clearly from the Guardians of the Galaxy era" where every movie was incessantly blasting quirky songs during action scenes. I didn't really notice it at the time, but yeah I do think it was a bit overdone.

Gonna be watching Nobody 2 for christmas eve, although that I have never seen anyone talk about it doesn't bode well.

Let’s just say it’s the sequel no one really expected, and feels like the movie equivalent of good album’s lighter b-side. But, since the action was still good and Connie Nielsen’s in it, that was good enough for me.

Speaking of Christmas, I kinda feel the same way about Bad Santa 2 in terms of sequels.
 

Gordon_4

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Detroit Rock City - 9/10

This is one of my favourite failed movies. This thing had a minuscule budget - 17million - and didn't even make that back and is dumber than a sack of hammers. But damn its fun.

The plot is about four guys trying to get to a KISS concert in Detroit in '77 after the drummer's religious conservative mother burns the tickets to the show and the misadventures that follow. I think what helps the most is, contrivances that get them chicks aside, the four guys in it really come across like ACTUAL teenagers; they're afraid of dogs, have stage fright - a big deal for someone in a band - have issues standing up to their parent and so on.

Great soundtrack too.
 
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PsychedelicDiamond

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I suspect TikTok and other social media are killing media, including films.

The problem all media have now is how to compete with short-form videos algorithmically designed to take all your attention at the expense of films, TV, computer games, work and socialising with your loved ones (never mind any other human beings). And social media is way ahead, maybe even unstoppably so.

People are too busy watching their phones to go to the cinema so there's no point making films for cinema. And when the audience are at home, they need to make the film undemanding enough so that someone who's splitting their attention between the film and their social media doesn't find the film too challenging, because they know that if the punters have to choose between social media or the film, it's social media.

And finally, social media has fucked everyone's attention span. There's no way the younger generations can manage 2-3 hours.
Y'know, about that...

1000015959.png

I just don't think there's anything to that. People can and will watch a 3 hour movie at the theater just fine if they feel it's actually giving them their money's worth.

The audience's not to blame if the producers can't consistently provide that.
 
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Gordon_4

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Y'know, about that...

View attachment 14090

I just don't think there's anything to that. People can and will watch a 3 hour movie at the theater just fine if they feel it's actually giving them their money's worth.

The consumer's not to blame if the producers can't consistently deliver that.
I just came back from this.

9/10

Its my first 3D film since I needed glasses so that was a bit of a learning experience and my only complaint honestly is that the movie looks like its at the high frame rate like the Hobbit and that more than any of the CGI makes it feel video gamey. With luck the bluray will be at a civilised 24 frames.

Beyond that, James Cameron can still take the basic tropes and make something immensely fun to watch with a very distinct visual language and man, I gotta give some props to Oona Chaplain who plays Varang - the one with the mad eyes in the tweet picture - because she plays the character with absolutely wild unhinged energy and boy oh boy did her chemistry with Quarritch make my butt clench. One of their first scenes together is a dark variation of the famous rifle training scene between Hicks and Ripley in Aliens. All in all, I had a lot of fun and I suspect you know if you're going to see this or not.

Also, something I feel people overlook about Avatar even as they continue to take the piss out of it despite its absolute fucking success, is that James Cameron keeps it old school. I'm the biggest fan of the MCU around these parts - Thunderbolts and Fantastic 4 were great, die mad about it - but I do get the complaint that people feel like they insist on you doing the reading beforehand with the tie ins and spin offs. Avatar doesn't do that. You want to watch Fire and Ash? All you need to see is Avatar and Way of Water, as was traditional with in the before times. And once you've watched it, it leaves you alone.
 

Old_Hunter_77

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Y'know, about that...



I just don't think there's anything to that. People can and will watch a 3 hour movie at the theater just fine if they feel it's actually giving them their money's worth.

The audience's not to blame if the producers can't consistently provide that.
The critical consensus Oscar favorite and universally acclaimed movie now is One Battle After Another, which is almost 3 hours. Avatar movies always make bank and James Cameron is literally the only safe investment I can imagine a company making.

Any talk of Avatar "controversy" or whatever is just one of those "let's internet yell about made up stuff for no reason" because there is nothing to talk about here- you go see them if you want to see awesome visual spectacle and sfx grandeur, and there's nothing wrong with that once in a while. The Avatar movies are "boring" to talk about and hey isn't it nice to just have things that don't require discourse

Personally, I'm one and done with those.
 
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