Discussion about Self-Insert Characters in Fiction (Mary Sue/Gary Stu)

[Trunkage]

While bad male characters aren't given that scrutiny.

Serious? I found Finn the most poorly written and unrelatable character in the movie. Rey wasn't the highest quality of writing, but didn't have any of the jarring "why the fuck would they do that?" moments. Likewise, I was kind of appreciating the engineer character from the latest one until she pulled that batshit crazy stunt at the end...

The difference between Rey and Luke is generational - 70s movies tended not to have the same expectations on character development. He was a 2D stereotype character, but that was fine because the film was about the story not the people.

Anakin, for all the issues with the prequels and how they were written, was a deeply flawed individual. That's essentially the point of the prequel trilogy, him giving in to his base instincts. His flying skills were largely absurd, but so was a large number of things in the Phantom Menace.

And in a wider sense, I think we come back to the difference between movies about storylines and movies about people. James Bond is a walking stereotype, but that works because Bond films are about the story and not him as a person. There is (or should be) no attempt to explain him or develop him, because that's not the point. I think the more modern Star Wars films attempt to make people care more about the characters, and as a result open themselves to more scrutiny when said characters are poor.

Bond never worked for me (until Casino Royale) specifically becuase he was a walking stereotype. I think explaining him in Casino Royale was the best thing they did for him. Pity they haven't done much with that.

You could be right about trying to develop characters you care about gets more scrutiny. The reverse happens to me when I try to discuss how archetypal and basic Luke and the gang are. They don't sound like they've spent anytime thinking about it.

Which meand that if you compare an old liked character to a new character, you're never going to know why you like the former over the latter. It's based on feelings and deliberately ignoring character traits.

 

[Something Amyss]

So, to me, Rey from the new Star Wars isnt a great character. Even if you like her, you'd probably recognize that she gets called a Mary-Sue. Usually what follows is a list of great female characters to prove this point.

I can answer this thread with an old joke:

What do you call a male Mary Sue?
The protagonist.

Meh, I had far more pressing problems with those movies than Rey, so she sort of went under the radar for me. I didn't mind her so much.

Honestly, the Rey/luke portions of TLJ were the only bits I enjoyed. Well, there may have been a stray scene or two, but I literally couldn't finish the movie in 3-4 settings. I had to hit half a dozen before I got there.

I liked TFA, though, so I can't really talk.

However none of these characters are actually Mary Sues because that's not about power. A Mary Sue character is always right, never makes personal mistakes and only ever fails because other people are evil rather than because they made mistakes, and this is not true for any of the three.

Another element of a Mary Sue is that the plot essentially warps around her, and Rey doesn't really fit that, either. Rey is of particular interest to about three characters in TLJ...well, four...which is why the First Order is busy chasing down a series of spaceships that are low on gas. Rilo Kiley wants to convert her, Darth Sirkis realises that she--not Luke--is the Light Side's chosen opposition to Shirtless Ben, and Luke only sort of begrudgingly takes interest in her and only after both Chewie and Artoo sass him. Finn's not even interested in her because of her powers: she's one of the only friends he has, and he bonded with her in a much more organic way than "I was so tortured I left the First Order but now I'm murdering people with mah boiiiii Poe!" and no doubt wants to sleep with her, but even then, she's not the only woman in the room.

In fact, much of the other plot is unaffected by her presence. Even Force Jesus' intervention would have been unnecessary save for a situation created by Rey's absence. The movie would have had less Snarky Luke and no OG Yoda and would have been even more about running out of gas, but it still would have happened.

Luke and Anakin both played pivotal roles multiple times in the victories of their respective sides. Rey has largely done her own story. She has a couple of awesome laser sword scenes, but she doesn't really do much...she's arguably part of why Han ends up confronting Dath Daddyissues when she gets damseled, and then...she may have helped make the Imperial Cosplay more dangerous?

The latter point does dovetail nicely with what you were saying about being always right and whatnot, too.

Serious? I found Finn the most poorly written and unrelatable character in the movie.

"I didn't do it" is not the same as "it doesn't happen."

I don't eat at Chipolte, but for some reason, people do.

 

[Saint of M]

Its she's a chick. She started the film with a number of already key skillsets, but so did Luke (could piolot a lad speeder andd rutinly went flying and shoot dog sized critters from a distance when others thought that the same sized exhost port on the Death Star was imposible) and Ani (he's a pod racer, which is at such high speeds and dangerous terrain and territory that one needs "Jedi Reflexes" just not to die, much less race well). At the same time, she just makeing it up as she goes with a lightsaber and winning against someone that is both emotionaly unstable and just survived a shot that previously been shown to have explosive firepower is less OP then say a 9 year old kid abble to outdo drones and take out an entire armada by himlonesome, or a a farm boy doing what seasoned piolots couldn't?

In the second film she is effectivly dealing with two teachers, one a grumpy old man, and one a shell shocked nut case.


Women are more scuitinized in media, its not a secret. There was a contraversy over how Spiderwoman was posed in one cover despite it because it was "for fanservice" despite being the same pose we've seen the Freindly Neighborhood Spiderman take when he crawls around.


Or how many female charecters you can think of where their standard armor choices look like they came out of a Swimsuit eddition of Sports Illistrated, but the guys can wear the same exact gear and it looks like it could protect you from a stray arrow?

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Han Solo was a street rat from Corellia that could fly a starship, shoot a gun, play a masterful hand of Sabac and speak fluent Wookie.

The imperial academy he got thrown out of must've had a hell of an elective program.

 

[Saint of M]

Han Solo was a street rat from Corellia that could fly a starship, shoot a gun, play a masterful hand of Sabac and speak fluent Wookie.

The imperial academy he got thrown out of must've had a hell of an elective program.

Probably came with being a street kid. Remember 9 year old Anni could speak several alien languages, and build his own protocal droid from scrap working with a scrap dealer

 

[Catnip1024]

Which meand that if you compare an old liked character to a new character, you're never going to know why you like the former over the latter. It's based on feelings and deliberately ignoring character traits.

To be fair, the primary reason the original Star Wars movies are held in such high esteem is based on nostalgia, along with the fact that they were pretty remarkable for their time. If both trilogies came out at today, they would be being slated at least as hard as the latest films.

 

[Something Amyss]

The imperial academy he got thrown out of must've had a hell of an elective program.

They heard he had a black friend. I'm not saying the Empire is an analogue for White Supremacy, but the creators sure have....

Probably came with being a street kid. Remember 9 year old Anni could speak several alien languages, and build his own protocal droid from scrap working with a scrap dealer

Which makes her a Mary Sue.

...wait, what? Anni is Anakin? Well, that's okay then.

 

[BrawlMan]

I don't care or pay attention whiny to twat fanboy/fangirls. I am a casual Star Wars fan, so most changes don't bother me. I still say Episode 2 is the worst of the whole movie series. The thing these people seem to forget is the series has always gad writing problems as a whole. It's just matter when some of these assholes are "going to put their foot down" on one silly thing and not the other. Hypocritical fandom at its finest. Rey is the least of the new Star Wars films problems, which are not that many, and I enjoy them for what they are. If certain parts of the fandom are miserable, because I and other enjoy the new films, so be it.

 

[the December King]

I... I was never under the impression that anyone was cool with Anikin's ridiculous skillset? I know,m Darth Vader and all, but having to make him sooo super awesome even at 6 or whatever age he was in the first film, turned me off of the Prequels more than Jar Jar's presence (wait- that's not entirely true. But it did cause me massive eye rolls, and I did note his OP, and hated it).

I think I haven't watched the new ones, simply because I'm tired of the OP nature of the protagonists. It's not really about Rey's sex, it's about the, well, the 'super-hero like' nature of the stories now. I'm kinda tired of it all, and it's just easier to avoid the series in it's entirety. Especially if Han is also OP, as has been mentioned. I guess I've always liked the journey to greatness in these sort of stories.

 

[Agema]

Mmm...yes and no. Yes if you're considering it in terms of eventual accomplishments, no if you're considering it in terms of execution.

I certainly get your point. In the wider sense of execution, there are a lot of aspects of the film leaving something to be desired - they can't be arsed waiting for anything. Fire a beam half way across the galaxy and wipe out an entire star system in 20 seconds, no less. The hyperspace jump that takes 3 seconds, not even enough time for a coffee, when in the original there was clearly time for some R&R.

On the other hand, excessive innate Force powers aside, she's hardly any worse than Anakin and what he could do at half her age. I have no idea how anyone in the galaxy can live in poverty given the astonishing skills their slum dwellers seem to pick up.

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

I... I was never under the impression that anyone was cool with Anikin's ridiculous skillset? I know,m Darth Vader and all, but having to make him sooo super awesome even at 6 or whatever age he was in the first film, turned me off of the Prequels more than Jar Jar's presence (wait- that's not entirely true. But it did cause me massive eye rolls, and I did note his OP, and hated it).

The criticism of Anakin has mellowed somewhat over the years, but you are absolutely right. On the release of ep 1 the vitriol aimed at Jake Lloyd was enough to drive him out of acting for good. If one was to make a distinction, one might say that Anakin mostly caught flak for being poorly written in general, with few complains about his "power level". Rey on the other hand has mostly caught flak for being a Mary Sue (which is a very specific kind of poorly written) because she, at twice his age, is able to do some of the things Anakin did.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Which makes her a Mary Sue.

...wait, what? Anni is Anakin? Well, that's okay then.

Weirdest part of these threads is when people start acting like Anakin wasn't almost universally reviled for being an overly-precocious little urchin to try and make it about misogyny.

I... I was never under the impression that anyone was cool with Anikin's ridiculous skillset? I know,m Darth Vader and all, but having to make him sooo super awesome even at 6 or whatever age he was in the first film, turned me off of the Prequels more than Jar Jar's presence (wait- that's not entirely true. But it did cause me massive eye rolls, and I did note his OP, and hated it).

The criticism of Anakin has mellowed somewhat over the years, but you are absolutely right. On the release of ep 1 the vitriol aimed at Jake Lloyd was enough to drive him out of acting for good. If one was to make a distinction, one might say that Anakin mostly caught flak for being poorly written in general, with few complains about his "power level". Rey on the other hand has mostly caught flak for being a Mary Sue (which is a very specific kind of poorly written) because she, at twice his age, is able to do some of the things Anakin did.

Episode 1 was released before the internet had really taken off. I'm sure if most people had ever heard of the term Mary Sue at the time, he would have been called one.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Weirdest part of these threads is when people start acting like Anakin wasn't almost universally reviled for being an overly-precocious little urchin to try and make it about misogyny.

The thing is that during the height of the Prequel hate Anakin wasn't hated because he did things well, he was hated because this iteration was seen as ruining Darth Vader. He was accused of being a whiney brat, not someone who was too over powered. The jedi in general were criticized for being too OP in the Prequels, but Anakin wasn't singled out on that front.


Rey on the other hand seems to get criticized for having typical Star Wars protag skills.. without having gone through the proper channels.

 

[Something Amyss]

I... I was never under the impression that anyone was cool with Anikin's ridiculous skillset?

Just go back to this very forum the month after TFA came out, and you will find numerous people defending Ani's skillset.

Weirdest part of these threads is when people start acting like Anakin wasn't almost universally reviled for being an overly-precocious little urchin to try and make it about misogyny.

Not as weird as when people try and pretend it was his skills or power level people hated, rather than the child actor in Episode 1 and the fact that he was constantly whining in 2 and 3. Because what people really hate about Ani was his skills, which is why they meme him jumping out of windows as a bad thing, and not jokes about sand and I HATE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

Onbe of the only things defended in the prequels was the action, and a large chunk of that was Anakin's, so maybe don't pretend people hated him because he was teh leet haxorz with a saber or could throw people. Occasionally, you would get people complaining the the Force was so much more powerful, but that wasn't leveled specifically at Anakin.

The thing is that during the height of the Prequel hate Anakin wasn't hated because he did things well, he was hated because this iteration was seen as ruining Darth Vader. He was accused of being a whiney brat, not someone who was to over powered. The jedi in general were criticized for being too OP in the Prequels, but Anakin wasn't singled on that front.


Rey on the other hand seems to get criticized for having typical Star Wars protag skills.. without having gone through the proper channels.

Oh, someone got there first, I see.

I mean, you kind of have to be hyper competent, extremely lucky, or both to make it the Star Wars 'verse. not just the main characters, either.

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

The Force Awakens suffered from having Luke Skywalker's three-movie arc condensed into one movie for Rey. The Last Jedi suffered from Rian Johnson deciding he wanted to deconstruct the "hero's journey" and hamfisting it to hell and back.

A lot of people who can't stand things not being 100% about them all the time decided it's because of "dem whamenz".

 

[Drathnoxis]

Weirdest part of these threads is when people start acting like Anakin wasn't almost universally reviled for being an overly-precocious little urchin to try and make it about misogyny.

The thing is that during the height of the Prequel hate Anakin wasn't hated because he did things well, he was hated because this iteration was seen as ruining Darth Vader. He was accused of being a whiney brat, not someone who was too over powered. The jedi in general were criticized for being too OP in the Prequels, but Anakin wasn't singled out on that front.


Rey on the other hand seems to get criticized for having typical Star Wars protag skills.. without having gone through the proper channels.

Oh come on, nobody liked Anakin's stupid flight to destroy the power core that somehow single handedly won the war.

 

[Asita]

Mmm...yes and no. Yes if you're considering it in terms of eventual accomplishments, no if you're considering it in terms of execution.

I certainly get your point. In the wider sense of execution, there are a lot of aspects of the film leaving something to be desired - they can't be arsed waiting for anything. Fire a beam half way across the galaxy and wipe out an entire star system in 20 seconds, no less. The hyperspace jump that takes 3 seconds, not even enough time for a coffee, when in the original there was clearly time for some R&R.

On the other hand, excessive innate Force powers aside, she's hardly any worse than Anakin and what he could do at half her age. I have no idea how anyone in the galaxy can live in poverty given the astonishing skills their slum dwellers seem to pick up.

I'm not sure that's actually true though. Thinking on Anakin a moment, his character at introduction is basically summed up as "street racer"[footnote]Improbable age notwithstanding, but I believe I've mentioned at least a few times that I think the Anakin should have been aged up half a dozen years[/footnote]. Guy's surrounded by machines his whole life and works with them for a living, builds his own "car" which he uses to race. Talent set at start is his mechanical ability and piloting skills, the latter of which is further enabled by preternaturally good reflexes and insticts. What does he actually do in Phantom Menace? He races. He is tested for Force Sensitivity, he participates in a dogfight. There's a discussion to be had about how much sense it makes that piloting a pod racer should be comparable to piloting a 1-man fighter, but narratively the point of the former is to make the latter easier to accept (bad writing though it may be). Piloting, instinct, piloting. He sticks very much in his niche, and doesn't really go outside of it until after the credits.

Thinking on Rey, however? Well, at introduction it's hard to nail her down in a single term, but basically she's a salvager with elements of tomb raiding (particularly exploration and free climbing). And then when it comes to things she does? She surprises herself with her instinctive piloting abilities in a ship she has never flown. She fixes the Falcon (justifiable given the skillset implied by her salvaging background). She gets a Force Vision and reflects the mind-probe of someone implied to be spectacularly powerful in the Force before she even knows that she can use it herself. And, perplexingly enough, in the fight with Kylo Ren he makes sport of her while she employs mobility and her environment in ways that fit her skillset, but she turns the fight around when she abandons that skillset in favor of the more conventional fighting style he'd specialized in.

For all that people like to dismiss criticism of Rey by citing Anakin, there's not really a lot of overlap. You can perhaps make the case for overlap with the piloting, but I think a key difference in execution there is that while A New Hope and Phantom Menace tried to establish that Luke and Anakin had relatable experience, The Force Awakens made it a point to strongly suggest that Rey lacked such experience. It instead opted to use her surprising aptitude in what I'd argue was a misguided attempt at foreshadowing that she had supernatural abilities. Where the other examples were playing to a strength that was enabled by supernatural abilities, The Force Awakens instead decided that the supernatural abilities automatically translated to mastery even without experience. Rey's big moments in TFA were those where she showed an unexpected proficiency with something completely new to her. Conversely, in their equivalent films, Anakin and Luke's big moments were tied to things they gravitated towards because they were familiar to them.

As an analogy, it's the difference between a surgeon who became the best in her field because she had a sixth sense for the workings of the human body (ie, she's trained and the ability gives her an added edge over her colleagues), and a mechanic who can perform open heart surgery because of the same ability (ie, the ability replaces training entirely). Or in tabletop terms, it's the difference between getting a +3 bonus in addition to your skill ranks, and simply being told to "take 20" even without skill ranks. This is what I mean about execution. While our hypothetical surgeon and mechanic can both be said to have operated on someone, the circumstances leading to that operation and how it's explained make the similarity superficial.

 

[Trunkage]

I... I was never under the impression that anyone was cool with Anikin's ridiculous skillset? I know,m Darth Vader and all, but having to make him sooo super awesome even at 6 or whatever age he was in the first film, turned me off of the Prequels more than Jar Jar's presence (wait- that's not entirely true. But it did cause me massive eye rolls, and I did note his OP, and hated it).

I think I haven't watched the new ones, simply because I'm tired of the OP nature of the protagonists. It's not really about Rey's sex, it's about the, well, the 'super-hero like' nature of the stories now. I'm kinda tired of it all, and it's just easier to avoid the series in it's entirety. Especially if Han is also OP, as has been mentioned. I guess I've always liked the journey to greatness in these sort of stories.

BUT HE WAS THE CHOSEN ONE!

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

And, perplexingly enough, in the fight with Kylo Ren he makes sport of her while she employs mobility and her environment in ways that fit her skillset, but she turns the fight around when she abandons that skillset in favor of the more conventional fighting style he'd specialized in.

Some times I wonder if people have seen the same lightsaber fight in TFA that I have. The one that starts with Kylo Ren wounded by a direct hit from a weapon that routinely throws Stormtroopers across the room from sheer kinetic impact. The one where Kylo is bleeding and continually beating his wound to build up adrenaline and pain to draw upon the dark side. The one where he handily dispatches Finn, who tries to go toe to toe with him, and then chases Rey, who has no idea how to properly handle a lightsaber. The one where he has Rey at the ropes, but instead of killing her reminds her about the force, which lets her wield her lightsaber with some degree of proficiency (as previously established in EU materials, where lightsaber use is based on letting the force guide you). With the force she manages to turn the fight against Kylo, who at this point has fought for a good several minutes with an untended wound from a weapon that routinely flings people across the room when it hits. So she catches a wounded and tired opponent who doesn't want to kill her off-guard and manages to drive him back before he can get his bearings back.

I mean, it isn't the best lightsaber fight in Star Wars, but the power of the Bowcaster has been foreshadowed several times, Kylo's wound is repeatedly shown, as is his ritual of beating it to pump himself up. We get a clear shot of Rey tapping into the force and her fighting style obviously changes when she uses the force to wield a lightsaber instead of her scavenger skill set. We've also been shown previously that Snoke wants Rey alive and Kylo even stops to tell her that he doesn't want to kill her but wants her to join him. The scene itself gives us all the building blocks we need to see why Rey, who is clearly outmatched by Kylo Ren even when he's injured, can pull an unexpected victory from their confrontation and none of it is very Mary-Sueish. Kylo is impaired by his wounds, holds back and doesn't expect Rey to come at him with such ferocity.

In the larger design of things, her ability to resist Kylo's mind probe and then using the mind trick on JB-007 is more glaring. But it isn't that much more glaring then Luke somehow having figured out how to use the force to pull his lightsaber to himself in Episode V, despite apparently lacking an actual mentor to teach him the force and all his force training pretty much amounting to letting the force guide him.

 

[Kyrian007]

And, perplexingly enough, in the fight with Kylo Ren he makes sport of her while she employs mobility and her environment in ways that fit her skillset, but she turns the fight around when she abandons that skillset in favor of the more conventional fighting style he'd specialized in.

Some times I wonder if people have seen the same lightsaber fight in TFA that I have. The one that starts with Kylo Ren wounded by a direct hit from a weapon that routinely throws Stormtroopers across the room from sheer kinetic impact. The one where Kylo is bleeding and continually beating his wound to build up adrenaline and pain to draw upon the dark side. The one where he handily dispatches Finn, who tries to go toe to toe with him, and then chases Rey, who has no idea how to properly handle a lightsaber. The one where he has Rey at the ropes, but instead of killing her reminds her about the force, which lets her wield her lightsaber with some degree of proficiency (as previously established in EU materials, where lightsaber use is based on letting the force guide you). With the force she manages to turn the fight against Kylo, who at this point has fought for a good several minutes with an untended wound from a weapon that routinely flings people across the room when it hits. So she catches a wounded and tired opponent who doesn't want to kill her off-guard and manages to drive him back before he can get his bearings back.

I mean, it isn't the best lightsaber fight in Star Wars, but the power of the Bowcaster has been foreshadowed several times, Kylo's wound is repeatedly shown, as is his ritual of beating it to pump himself up. We get a clear shot of Rey tapping into the force and her fighting style obviously changes when she uses the force to wield a lightsaber instead of her scavenger skill set. We've also been shown previously that Snoke wants Rey alive and Kylo even stops to tell her that he doesn't want to kill her but wants her to join him. The scene itself gives us all the building blocks we need to see why Rey, who is clearly outmatched by Kylo Ren even when he's injured, can pull an unexpected victory from their confrontation and none of it is very Mary-Sueish. Kylo is impaired by his wounds, holds back and doesn't expect Rey to come at him with such ferocity.

In the larger design of things, her ability to resist Kylo's mind probe and then using the mind trick on JB-007 is more glaring. But it isn't that much more glaring then Luke somehow having figured out how to use the force to pull his lightsaber to himself in Episode V, despite apparently lacking an actual mentor to teach him the force and all his force training pretty much amounting to letting the force guide him.

That's the one I saw. I preferred it in terms of aesthetics as well... as opposed to the uselessly flipping and spinning wire-fu of the prequels. It was more like the broadsword stagefighting of epic fantasy rather than the twee twirling of the prequels that made pitched life and death battles look like nothing more than glow sticks at a kiddy rave. Plus, the established she was proficient with a melee weapon. Principle is the same, hold it by the handle... bonk them with the other end. That vs a severely injured opponent... sprinkle on some space magic and its easily plausible.