Discussions on the Escapist forums

[achilleas.k]

There's something special about the Escapist forums, something I'm sure happens elsewhere, but not so much on other forums I frequent personally. I don't know the cause of this, or if other people feel the same way, which is why I am starting this thread. I am willing to accept that this may just be my own view on the matter; maybe I have a skewed opinion because I haven't been here long and I don't comment on too many topics in general.

Anyway, on to the topic.

I have noticed that, on the Escapist, users don't seem to discuss a topic very often. At least on the more popular threads, there's not so much a discussion as there is a random series of individual opinions, that all just answer to the original post. Understandably, this is meant to happen in certain threads such as "What is your favourite X?", where there can't really be that much of a discussion and, as expected, everyone just posts their favourite X and moves on. On certain other topics however, this isn't really constructive. Some topics can gain a lot from a proper, two (or multi-) sided discussion where every post is a direct answer to a recent one and the topic evolves into a series of arguments for and against, rather than 5 pages of elaborate "I agree" and "I disagree" posts. Even on "favourite X" threads, you end up with a large number of replies most people will never read.

Why do I care?
I like this place. I like games. I know the rest of the community likes games just as much as I do and I would love to know their opinions on things (even unrelated things). When what I described above happens, most opinions go unread. How many times have you clicked a thread topic that seemed interesting, read the first few replies and just skipped to page 6 where you post your own?
I never used to do this, but since I joined these forums I have noticed I do it more and more often. For contrast, if a thread has a nice give and take, a proper flow or opinions, arguments and counter-arguments, I will read all pages to the end and then contribute if anything hasn't been mentioned.

I don't know why this happens so much here (or why I think it happens so much). It is possible that there's a general attitude to post "favourite X" threads rather than discussion threads, but I see this happening on discussion threads as well. Another reason may be the sheer volume of users. It is a very large community and popular threads can reach 5-6 pages a few minutes after being posted. When someone starts typing the first reply and by the time he hits submit there are 10 replies before him, it's inevitable that a proper discussion will fail.

So what's your opinion on the matter? Does this happen, or am I imagining things?
Please try to make this thread a discussion rather than a list of opinions. Read all, or most, replies before posting (I don't expect this thread to become very long anyway). This thread is for the people who take the time to reply to thread topics and really think about what they say and get the feeling no one bothers reading what they posted.

 

[cuddly_tomato]

I believe you are correct, Mr achilleas.k. I personally think there is an atmosphere of elitism and arrogance here that I have not seen elsewhere, and generally people here prefer preaching rather than discourse.

This thread is for the people who take the time to reply to thread topics and really think about what they say and get the feeling no one bothers reading what they posted.

This is one of the most corrosive aspects of this forum. Because there is a lack of respect for the opinions of others, there tends to be cacophony of scorn and hatred poured upon people who say things which go against the grain. Thus people with those views will often remain silent, and only one viewpoint is ever aired. In such circumstances, what is the point in typing up a 5 paragraph 20 minute masterpiece when you are basically saying "this" and preaching to the choir?

 

[JemJar]

Fundamentally, The Escapist is too large to regularly provide the sort of discussion space you would like. First and foremost, many posters will put their opinions up in a thread because they wish to be heard amongst the million clamouring voices. Being an elitist prick I create a sort of Relative Poster IQ by dividing time since joining by post count, hence Max scores so low I don' want to wear out my 0 key and other well-meaning elitist pricks like me score well.

The other problem of course is simply the number of people online and posting. At time of writing there is no response to your original post but I suspect by the time I finish this it will be post six or seven. And hence the thread of discussion is lost amongst cross-discussion. It's one of the reasons I tend to quote whoever I'm trying to discuss with in order to make it easier to follow. Like this:

/snip

Why do I care?
I like this place. I like games. I know the rest of the community likes games just as much as I do and I would love to know their opinions on things (even unrelated things)

/snip

There's a possible argument here that for many people posting on the Escapist they aren't looking for other people's opinions on games (or other matters), what they're actually looking for is somewhere to voice their own. If we were all just looking for other people's opinions we'd never provide any and the forum wouldn't exist.

I could probably make up some psycho-babble about being a disenfranchised generation, simultaneously more literally connected and more figuratively disconnected from society than ever before and how it forces us to seek value in the approval of total strangers over the internet, but it would seem somewhat self-defeating when I could just point out that I've spent ten minutes coming up with a response to a total stranger's obtuse question.

 

[geldonyetich]

The problem, I've found [http://dsob.wordpress.com/2007/11/10/illiterate-literacy-what-i-learnt-about-message-boards/], is hardly unique to the Escapist.

Outside of coding in mechanisms to punish people who don't take the time to read, good luck with that.

 

[Kaboose the Moose]

In general, the amount of effort people put into their posts depends on how strongly they feel about the topic at hand. The stronger your opinions the more you will tend to write, to express your opinions more clearly, provide external material, etc..etc..

As brilliant as this forum can be, not many people post intellectually challenging questions or discussions. Personally I stumble across threads of interest maybe once in two months..at best. If I don't have something unique to say or have a strong opinion about a topic, I will still comment/voice my opinion but it won't be a post worthy of an academic journal.

 

[achilleas.k]

I've found that my posts, usually consisting of gargantuan essay-style opinion pieces or extremely detailed analyses, tend to bring in quite a bit of discussion. The material in the original posts usually contains some sort of controversy, but with a lot of research and material supporting the posts, they don't end up stepping the line into the "troll thread".

Unfortunately, a lot of posters on the forums tend to stick to one-liners in their replies, and these are the same posters who don't write essays. I prefer reading posts by users like NewClassic or Combined, because they usually back up their posts with more than one or two lines of material.

Well allow me to personally apologise for my own original post not being backed up by anything. I did mention that I acknowledge the possibility of me not spending enough time to find the threads I would like, or being guilty of the thing I condemn, so this thread could also be a way for me to get my opinion on straight.

I believe you are correct, Mr achilleas.k. I personally think there is an atmosphere of elitism and arrogance here that I have not seen elsewhere, and generally people here prefer preaching rather than discourse.

This is one of the most corrosive aspects of this forum. Because there is a lack of respect for the opinions of others, there tends to be cacophony of scorn and hatred poured upon people who say things which go against the grain. Thus people with those views will often remain silent, and only one viewpoint is ever aired. In such circumstances, what is the point in typing up a 5 paragraph 20 minute masterpiece when you are basically saying "this" and preaching to the choir?

That's awfully pessimistic cuddly. Are things really that bad? I mean, I wasn't even sure things were as bad as I described them, but what you're describing is far beyond what I meant. I don't think there's so much a lack of respect, as there is a lack of interest (the two not being mutually exclusive of course).

Fundamentally, The Escapist is too large to regularly provide the sort of discussion space you would like. First and foremost, many posters will put their opinions up in a thread because they wish to be heard amongst the million clamouring voices. Being an elitist prick I create a sort of Relative Poster IQ by dividing time since joining by post count, hence Max scores so low I don' want to wear out my 0 key and other well-meaning elitist pricks like me score well.

The other problem of course is simply the number of people online and posting. At time of writing there is no response to your original post but I suspect by the time I finish this it will be post six or seven. And hence the thread of discussion is lost amongst cross-discussion. It's one of the reasons I tend to quote whoever I'm trying to discuss with in order to make it easier to follow.

Well, as I suspected. Putting thousands of people in a small room makes conversing impossible doesn't it? You get people shouting out the popular topics and everyone shouting back their answer at the same time, and then you get small groups of people, sitting in a corner just going about their own topic in depth.

There's a possible argument here that for many people posting on the Escapist they aren't looking for other people's opinions on games (or other matters), what they're actually looking for is somewhere to voice their own. If we were all just looking for other people's opinions we'd never provide any and the forum wouldn't exist.

Looking for other people's opinions and wanting to voice your own can co-exist though, which is usually what happens when you're having a conversation (unless you're preaching). But I must agree: Without trying to sound too arrogant, it seems that most of the time people are trying to just shout out their reply and hope it gets heard.

The problem, I've found [http://dsob.wordpress.com/2007/11/10/illiterate-literacy-what-i-learnt-about-message-boards/], is hardly unique to the Escapist.

Outside of coding in mechanisms to punish people who don't take the time to read, good luck with that.

Naturally it's not unique to the Escapist, but I figured there would be a lot of people here that would share my opinion (or at least I was hoping). I found that sometimes in the chaos that is a popular thread, there is an isolated group that is actually having a discussion, while the other 95% of the users on the specific thread are simply posting one-liner replies to the original post. Also, I tend to frequent forums with a much smaller number of users where topics are easier to manage. The blog post was an interesting read, though I still think that point no.2 is more to blame than the other two, otherwise you would probably at least see attempts at proper discussion, albeit full of misinterpretation.

 

[Wildrow12]

I believe you are correct, Mr achilleas.k. I personally think there is an atmosphere of elitism and arrogance here that I have not seen elsewhere, and generally people here prefer preaching rather than discourse.

I half agree with you, Cuddles.

There is no doubt in my mind that there is a certain sense of misplaced self-importance and elitism with some posters on this forum (in fact, I would say quite a few match this profile).
Also, yes, there do seem to be quite a few people who seem to be in love with the sight of their own typing, and are quite close-minded when it comes to actually discussing things.

However, I would NEVER say that this is a problem exclusive to the Escapist or to any one community. In my travels around the net I have found that MOST forums have a similar problem. Hence why there are only four places on the internet that I would ever go to have deep discussions.

 

[achilleas.k]

In general, the amount of effort people put into their posts depends on how strongly they feel about the topic at hand. The stronger your opinions the more you will tend to write, to express your opinions more clearly, provide external material, etc..etc..

As brilliant as this forum can be, not many people post intellectually challenging questions or discussions. Personally I stumble across threads of interest maybe once in two months..at best. If I don't have something unique to say or have a strong opinion about a topic, I will still comment/voice my opinion but it won't be a post worthy of an academic journal.

GUILTY!!!

On a serious note, I understand. Which is why I said I've started doing it myself, which is how I noticed this happens a lot around here, which is what made me want to start this thread to begin with.

 

[Cherry Cola]

I believe you are correct, Mr achilleas.k. I personally think there is an atmosphere of elitism and arrogance here that I have not seen elsewhere, and generally people here prefer preaching rather than discourse.

This thread is for the people who take the time to reply to thread topics and really think about what they say and get the feeling no one bothers reading what they posted.

This is one of the most corrosive aspects of this forum. Because there is a lack of respect for the opinions of others, there tends to be cacophony of scorn and hatred poured upon people who say things which go against the grain. Thus people with those views will often remain silent, and only one viewpoint is ever aired. In such circumstances, what is the point in typing up a 5 paragraph 20 minute masterpiece when you are basically saying "this" and preaching to the choir?

I did happen to catch your "I hate Michael bay thread", and so I know (sadly) that all you say is justified.

OT: I try to get people into discussions on my own thread, and even though people mostly don't reply, I can get 1 or 2 people to get a tiny little discussion going with me. It's not much, but it's satisfying.

 

[Urgh76]

hmm i don't quite understand what you're getting at fully, but yes, the escapist is a special place that is widely dominated by threads that reach over 100 posts then they stay there in the popular section for about a week

That's not why i like the escapist

For me, the Escapist is one big family with friends around every corner that we can speak and argue with without fear of any bad outcomes. Sure there are those who don't act like they should ( although that number is very small) like a family we still stay together

 

[Cherry Cola]

I believe you are correct, Mr achilleas.k. I personally think there is an atmosphere of elitism and arrogance here that I have not seen elsewhere, and generally people here prefer preaching rather than discourse.

This is one of the most corrosive aspects of this forum. Because there is a lack of respect for the opinions of others, there tends to be cacophony of scorn and hatred poured upon people who say things which go against the grain. Thus people with those views will often remain silent, and only one viewpoint is ever aired. In such circumstances, what is the point in typing up a 5 paragraph 20 minute masterpiece when you are basically saying "this" and preaching to the choir?

That's awfully pessimistic cuddly. Are things really that bad? I mean, I wasn't even sure things were as bad as I described them, but what you're describing is far beyond what I meant. I don't think there's so much a lack of respect, as there is a lack of interest (the two not being mutually exclusive of course).

Apparently you did not catch his "I hate Michael Bay" thread. It was riddled with people writing comments like "Stop bitching you whiny nerd!". And after that someone actually did a "I hate complainers" thread. (The irony of that was so immense that it wasn't even funny)

 

[cuddly_tomato]

I believe you are correct, Mr achilleas.k. I personally think there is an atmosphere of elitism and arrogance here that I have not seen elsewhere, and generally people here prefer preaching rather than discourse.

This is one of the most corrosive aspects of this forum. Because there is a lack of respect for the opinions of others, there tends to be cacophony of scorn and hatred poured upon people who say things which go against the grain. Thus people with those views will often remain silent, and only one viewpoint is ever aired. In such circumstances, what is the point in typing up a 5 paragraph 20 minute masterpiece when you are basically saying "this" and preaching to the choir?

That's awfully pessimistic cuddly. Are things really that bad? I mean, I wasn't even sure things were as bad as I described them, but what you're describing is far beyond what I meant. I don't think there's so much a lack of respect, as there is a lack of interest (the two not being mutually exclusive of course).

On most things I am ever the optimist. On the profiteering antics of game developers, and on the behaviour of the people who dwell on the internet in a social sense, I am the ultimate cynic. So remember that when you read my posts on this subject. Having said that... There are good people here and lots of them, but too many don't understand that when they post they are actually talking to other people, albeit people they can't see. This leads to them making posts which, I ultimately believe, they would not make had they actually had to say those things to peoples faces. This is a general internet problem I fear, but here is exacerbated by the sheer volume of users coupled with the lack of clarity and consistency in the forum rules.

However, I would NEVER say that this is a problem exclusive to the Escapist or to any one community. In my travels around the net I have found that MOST forums have a similar problem. Hence why there are only four places on the internet that I would ever go to have deep discussions.

Perhaps you are correct. I have been to some very bad places too, but certainly don't claim to have seen the worst, and if places are that bad I generally don't stay. I have stayed here, and that must count for something.

Spoiler

I believe you are correct, Mr achilleas.k. I personally think there is an atmosphere of elitism and arrogance here that I have not seen elsewhere, and generally people here prefer preaching rather than discourse.

This thread is for the people who take the time to reply to thread topics and really think about what they say and get the feeling no one bothers reading what they posted.

This is one of the most corrosive aspects of this forum. Because there is a lack of respect for the opinions of others, there tends to be cacophony of scorn and hatred poured upon people who say things which go against the grain. Thus people with those views will often remain silent, and only one viewpoint is ever aired. In such circumstances, what is the point in typing up a 5 paragraph 20 minute masterpiece when you are basically saying "this" and preaching to the choir?

I did happen to catch your "I hate Michael bay thread", and so I know (sadly) that all you say is justified.

OT: I try to get people into discussions on my own thread, and even though people mostly don't reply, I can get 1 or 2 people to get a tiny little discussion going with me. It's not much, but it's satisfying.

I really don't get that kind of thing. If one doesn't like a topic, it is far quicker and easier to click "back" rather than click "post" then type things out. I invite and welcome disagreement, I don't like it when people try to silence opinion.

 

[Incredible Bullshitting Man]

I used to visit a literature-oriented forum, which had pretty decent conversation with relatively in-depth posts, but it had only like a handful of active posters. People there knew each other very well and the forum traffic was manageable, so good discussion caught easily fire. For me, the only problem with that forum was, that it was more like a place for a certain group of friends to hang around rather than an open-to-all forum. It was kind of hard to get into that group.

The Escapist doesn´t have that problem, because of the constant flood of new users. The community is easy to get into, and likewise the sense of belonging to a community is easier to achieve. After that, some strive to become active contributors, some become known for their well-thought-out posts, but most of us just hang around. It´s all good. Personally, I just came here to occasionally shoot the breeze. If I wanted to have a deep, constructive conversation, I probably would go somewhere else. Now, I don´t mean to say The Escapist is fundamentally unsuitable for that kind of discourse, but the community just is too big "to regularly provide the sort of discussion space you would like", as Jemjar said.

So yeah, the kind of conversation you´re looking for belongs to the minority in here, but I have come to expect that. I like The Escapist the way it is.

 

[achilleas.k]

OT: I try to get people into discussions on my own thread, and even though people mostly don't reply, I can get 1 or 2 people to get a tiny little discussion going with me. It's not much, but it's satisfying.

Well I manage to get meaningful replies to long posts as well, on other people's topics too. Sometimes though it gets a bit annoying when you see a really interesting forum topic, something you would love to have a deep discussion about and read long analytical posts from different viewpoints on, and all you get is:

- FIRST!
- Yeah you're right.
- Yes.
- oh really? i hadnt noticed.
- no, you're wrong.

 

[Cherry Cola]

OT: I try to get people into discussions on my own thread, and even though people mostly don't reply, I can get 1 or 2 people to get a tiny little discussion going with me. It's not much, but it's satisfying.

Well I manage to get meaningful replies to long posts as well, on other people's topics too. Sometimes though it gets a bit annoying when you see a really interesting forum topic, something you would love to have a deep discussion about and read long analytical posts from different viewpoints on, and all you get is:

- FIRST!
- Yeah you're right.
- Yes.
- oh really? i hadnt noticed.
- no, you're wrong.

Then I guess it's up to you to go change that thread by starting a discussion! Optimism rules!

I once worked hard on a thread I was hoping would get a lot of attention, but I only got one comment and the guy was simply asking a question not related to the thread... Disappointment.. I shall not let that happen to anyone else!

 

[JemJar]

/self-snip

Well, as I suspected. Putting thousands of people in a small room makes conversing impossible doesn't it? You get people shouting out the popular topics and everyone shouting back their answer at the same time, and then you get small groups of people, sitting in a corner just going about their own topic in depth.

/self-snip

Looking for other people's opinions and wanting to voice your own can co-exist though, which is usually what happens when you're having a conversation (unless you're preaching). But I must agree: Without trying to sound too arrogant, it seems that most of the time people are trying to just shout out their reply and hope it gets heard.

It's more than just shouting over each other, it's the time-delay of the forum system that causes these problems. In a popular thread it's not unheard of to comment on the last post and end up a page further on in the thread by the time one has finished writing.

And yes, I agree that absorbing and dispensing opinions can co-exist, I was merely extrapolating in the other direction.

To turn the argument on it's head however, the problem isn't always being unwilling to listen as much as having no common ground on which to discuss. Taking the currently active thread on Best Album of the Decade, I read through the first page until realising that I had listened to perhaps 1 in every 20 albums mentioned. With a medium as diverse as music and tastes as varied as those on the Escapists it can very often be that most people just have no knowledge of whatever reference another poster is making.

You may be pleased to note I decided not to bother reading the rest of that thread and didn't post either.

The problem, I've found [http://dsob.wordpress.com/2007/11/10/illiterate-literacy-what-i-learnt-about-message-boards/], is hardly unique to the Escapist.

Outside of coding in mechanisms to punish people who don't take the time to read, good luck with that.

Is it ironic that I have noticed (via careful reading) that the second bullet point doesn't actually make sense?

The Internet is big, far bigger than any forum reader has time for, and so they will bother to read entire posts.

"will not bother" surely?

 

[Cherry Cola]

I believe you are correct, Mr achilleas.k. I personally think there is an atmosphere of elitism and arrogance here that I have not seen elsewhere, and generally people here prefer preaching rather than discourse.

This is one of the most corrosive aspects of this forum. Because there is a lack of respect for the opinions of others, there tends to be cacophony of scorn and hatred poured upon people who say things which go against the grain. Thus people with those views will often remain silent, and only one viewpoint is ever aired. In such circumstances, what is the point in typing up a 5 paragraph 20 minute masterpiece when you are basically saying "this" and preaching to the choir?

That's awfully pessimistic cuddly. Are things really that bad? I mean, I wasn't even sure things were as bad as I described them, but what you're describing is far beyond what I meant. I don't think there's so much a lack of respect, as there is a lack of interest (the two not being mutually exclusive of course).

On most things I am ever the optimist. On the profiteering antics of game developers, and on the behaviour of the people who dwell on the internet in a social sense, I am the ultimate cynic. So remember that when you read my posts on this subject. Having said that... There are good people here and lots of them, but too many don't understand that when they post they are actually talking to other people, albeit people they can't see. This leads to them making posts which, I ultimately believe, they would not make had they actually had to say those things to peoples faces. This is a general internet problem I fear, but here is exacerbated by the sheer volume of users coupled with the lack of clarity and consistency in the forum rules.

However, I would NEVER say that this is a problem exclusive to the Escapist or to any one community. In my travels around the net I have found that MOST forums have a similar problem. Hence why there are only four places on the internet that I would ever go to have deep discussions.

Perhaps you are correct. I have been to some very bad places too, but certainly don't claim to have seen the worst, and if places are that bad I generally don't stay. I have stayed here, and that must count for something.

Spoiler

I believe you are correct, Mr achilleas.k. I personally think there is an atmosphere of elitism and arrogance here that I have not seen elsewhere, and generally people here prefer preaching rather than discourse.

This thread is for the people who take the time to reply to thread topics and really think about what they say and get the feeling no one bothers reading what they posted.

This is one of the most corrosive aspects of this forum. Because there is a lack of respect for the opinions of others, there tends to be cacophony of scorn and hatred poured upon people who say things which go against the grain. Thus people with those views will often remain silent, and only one viewpoint is ever aired. In such circumstances, what is the point in typing up a 5 paragraph 20 minute masterpiece when you are basically saying "this" and preaching to the choir?

I did happen to catch your "I hate Michael bay thread", and so I know (sadly) that all you say is justified.

OT: I try to get people into discussions on my own thread, and even though people mostly don't reply, I can get 1 or 2 people to get a tiny little discussion going with me. It's not much, but it's satisfying.

I really don't get that kind of thing. If one doesn't like a topic, it is far quicker and easier to click "back" rather than click "post" then type things out. I invite and welcome disagreement, I don't like it when people try to silence opinion.

Some people just have to be elitists who can't leave something they don't agree with alone. It is ironic how they act really immature trying to flame you for having an opinion they felt was childish, what with disliking Bay when you can ignore them.

I don't get that either... Why do we have to ignore things? If we don't like something, we will want to talk about that with others to release aggression or to hear their opinions in order to see if you have judged the object you didn't like wrongly. But I digress. Wouldn't want to derail a thread.

 

[Virgil]

So what's your opinion on the matter? Does this happen, or am I imagining things?

As the volume of use increases, the general quality decreases. This isn't specific to this site, it's just something that happens. There's also no solution to it, other than doing increasingly convoluted things to artificially limit access or to deploy such a large and iron-fisted moderation force as to make the place more stress to maintain than it's worth.

This is one of the reasons why we created Groups. A private, self-moderated discussion area can be limited enough (either in topic, or participant pool) to create whatever type of conversation style is wanted. All it really needs is an organizer and enough people interested in that type of conversation.

 

[achilleas.k]

That's not why i like the escapist

For me, the Escapist is one big family with friends around every corner that we can speak and argue with without fear of any bad outcomes.

The Escapist doesn´t have that problem, because of the constant flood of new users. The community is easy to get into, and likewise the sense of belonging to a community is easier to achieve. After that, some strive to become active contributors, some become known for their well-thought-out posts, but most of us just hang around. It´s all good. Personally, I just came here to occasionally shoot the breeze. If I wanted to have a deep, constructive conversation, I probably would go somewhere else. Now, I don´t mean to say The Escapist is fundamentally unsuitable for that kind of discourse, but the community just is too big "to regularly provide the sort of discussion space you would like", as Jemjar said.

So yeah, the kind of conversation you´re looking for belongs to the minority in here, but I have come to expect that. I like The Escapist the way it is.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not on a crusade to change the mentality of Escapist users or anything. I probably would prefer it if sometimes it was different (as I said in my last post, when a nice topic gets "ruined" so to speak), more to my liking, but I'm not so spoiled to think that everything should be the way I want it. A major part of the reason I made this topic has been satisfied to be honest, namely, that I wasn't crazy and the thing I described does happen quite a lot around here.

"will not bother" surely?

I actually read "will NOT bother" the first time around.

 

[JemJar]

Some people just have to be elitists who can't leave something they don't agree with alone. It is ironic how they act really immature trying to flame you for having an opinion they felt was childish, what with disliking Bay when you can ignore them.

I don't get that either... Why do we have to ignore things? If we don't like something, we will want to talk about that with others to release aggression or to hear their opinions in order to see if you have judged the object you didn't like wrongly. But I digress. Wouldn't want to derail a thread.

I agree with this sentiment whole-heartedly. It's infuriating being told "Oh, just ignore him / her / it" when part of the human experience is sharing our likes and our dislikes. And on top of that, it's often rather hard to ignore certain people / films / games given the all-pervasive modern media ramming it in our faces.

Which says nothing of the irony of berating someone who's opinion you dislike with the words "Just ignore it"...