Ditching someone who friend zones you (Edited)

[JimB]

In my experience, a romantic relationship isn't an "upgrade" to friendship, but a different kind of relationship, in regards to the commitment it takes especially.

True, but are the benefits different, and if so, how?

Being their next of kin.

I'm not totally up on the law on this one. What does being next of kin mean, except for inheritance purposes and certain legal privileges, both of which can be designated by a properly executed document? And isn't next of kin status something only automatically awarded to someone in a legally recognized relationship with a person, not merely a romantic one?

 

[Hazy]

I think we should all have expected bad pickup artist advice to come along sometime.

I just didn't expect it to be so singularly useless, and such a surefire series of instructions on being unlikeable.

I've proven at one point or another in this thread why this advice is so much more than mere pick up artistry. It's about being your own self-reliant individual, which just happens to be something women adore.

Of course, if you want to be someone who is dependent on someone else for the rest of their life, feel free to disregard my advice entirely.

Can't stop laughing. ^^ Simple question: If the first thing you think about is "How can I present myself to impress this person?", rather than "I kinda like her, I wonder if we have any interests in common I could talk to her about?", what kind of person does that make you?

Someone who wants the best out of life?

Let me ask you this: would you go into a job interview with a tank top and cutoff jean shorts? Of course not, that's ludicrous. When you treat yourself with respect, others will as well. After all, who would you be more inclined to let handle your multi-million dollar account?

Which admittedly is pretty hilariously offensive and useless. Agree that being honest from the start is a good idea, though.

"Self betterment is useless" - Tarfeather, 2014

 

[Vegosiux]

In my experience, a romantic relationship isn't an "upgrade" to friendship, but a different kind of relationship, in regards to the commitment it takes especially.

True, but are the benefits different, and if so, how?

The way tomato soup is different depending on whether my grandma cooks it or I order it in a restaurant. It's about how you experience it, not what a passing observer sees at a cursory glance. You know, one of them brings up the "Yup, this is home, and I'll always be welcome here" sentiment while the other only brings up the "Well, I suppose I better pay for this now" one.

Or let me put this differently. What's the difference between being in a relationship and being "friends with benefits"?[footnote]Holy cow, I hate that expression[/footnote] The latter is literally "friends plus the crotch stuff", which is what you claim "relationship" to be. So, are the two actually the same to you?

Note, if you answer "yes" here I'm simply going to have to agree to disagree because, well, different people, different experience. There's simply nothing else to say past acknowledging that our lives are different.

I'm not totally up on the law on this one. What does being next of kin mean, except for inheritance purposes and certain legal privileges, both of which can be designated by a properly executed document? And isn't next of kin status something only automatically awarded to someone in a legally recognized relationship with a person, not merely a romantic one?

You asked what non-physical thing a lover can give that a friend can't. Being "just friends" with someone can't result in you being their legal next of kin unless the relationship changes. Being in a relationship with them, on the other hand, can, without any need for the relationship to be changed further[footnote]Depending on jurisdiction I suppose, maybe not every one of those considers extramarital relationships equal to actual marriage[/footnote].

You might not like this answer, but one non-physical benefit, even if it seems irrelevant or situational to you (or you simply haven't thought about it) is enough to show that yes, there are non-crotch-related benefits to it.

 

[JimB]

The way tomato soup is different depending on whether my grandma cooks it or I order it in a restaurant.

I'm sorry, could you answer this in a way that does not rely on metaphors about citrus-based comestibles? I don't understand what your grandmother's tomato soup has to do with anything, nor what an outside observer has to do with anything.

Let me use myself as an example again. I am not in a romantic relationship with a woman I am friends with. What am I not getting from that friendship that I would be getting if we were romantic?

Or let me put this differently. What's the difference between being in a relationship and being "friends with benefits?"

I have never used that term, so I can only guess. I would venture it's to do with the level of expectation involved, which seems to fall on that scale you dislike of romantic relationships being upgrades to friendships.

You asked what non-physical thing a lover can give that a friend can't.

The lover is not giving that. The law is.

Being "just friends" with someone can't result in you being their legal next of kin unless the relationship changes.

The law has changed recently, then, because I work in hospice care and I have personal experience of several individuals who listed as next of kin someone related to him by neither blood nor law.

 

[Lilani]

Someone who wants the best out of life?

Let me ask you this: would you go into a job interview with a tank top and cutoff jean shorts? Of course not, that's ludicrous. When you treat yourself with respect, others will as well. After all, who would you be more inclined to let handle your multi-million dollar account?

Except relationships aren't jobs, and going out with someone isn't an interview. Unlike an employer, people in relationships should accept you at your best AND your worst. They need to know who you really are, and know exactly who they are letting into their life. To put on a facade when introducing yourself to someone you might want to be in a relationship is not only lying to them about who you are, it's lying to yourself about whether or not they actually want to be with YOU.

And people aren't stupid. Eventually if you remain together long enough they'll see what aspects of you that you lied about or covered up. Do you think they'll be flattered by that or appreciate it? Probably not. They'll probably just wonder how they didn't see it before, and begin to wonder what else they thought about you is wrong.

 

[mecegirl]

If a woman doesn't like me enough to want a relationship, she probably doesn't like me enough to dedicate a lot of time and energy to me, or at least that's my experience so far. I may very well be proven wrong.

...Do you apply this same standard to your male friends?

What I want to know if how he assumes people who are homosexual pursue friendships with the same sex....

 

[Vegosiux]

I'm sorry, could you answer this in a way that does not rely on metaphors about citrus-based comestibles?

Yes, I could.[footnote]You didn't ask "Will you answer this..." and I'm not here for your amusement.[/footnote] This was only one of the options.

Let me use myself as an example again. I am not in a romantic relationship with a woman I am friends with. What am I not getting from that friendship that I would be getting if we were romantic?

I'm sorry, are you asking me to play an armchair psychologist? Cause, seeing as I don't know you at all, I naturally can't answer that question without making some big assumptions I have no reason to believe are founded in reality, and I'm not going to walk into that one.

I could answer that question for myself. I can't answer it for you.

I have never used that term, so I can only guess. I would venture it's to do with the level of expectation involved, which seems to fall on that scale you dislike of romantic relationships being upgrades to friendships.

"Dislike"? I'm not sure who's disliking that. I do recall saying that they're essentially not an upgrade but a different relationship to me. I've never said I dislike one changing into the other, though. So, yeah I'm going to ignore this bit.

The law stuff

Or maybe we live in different parts of the world. Then again, seeing as you've so casually dismissed everything I've said from my own personal experience, I'm not sure why I should give a toss about yours.

In fact, I'm not going to give a toss about anything else you say until you acknowledge the fact that as a person who is not you, my experience might have been different from yours, and stop trying to force me to accept your perspective as any more correct than my own is.

 

[Eddie the head]

And while it may have sexist roots it's a completely different beast today.

I don't see how its a different thing today.....its conflating weakness with being female

(FYI I swear to go I'm not picking on you.) I'm pretty sure that counts as a etymological fallacy. To use a pertinent example the word lady has it's origins in the old English word for "bread-kneader." Using the logic you just demonstrated calling someone a lady is conflating them with being a house wife.

I will grant you there is some gray area in this. What I think you need to do is look at the context and intent of the statement. Words are a social construct, and as a social construct they can mean different things in different social situations.

 

[IceStar100]

Someone who wants the best out of life?

Let me ask you this: would you go into a job interview with a tank top and cutoff jean shorts? Of course not, that's ludicrous. When you treat yourself with respect, others will as well. After all, who would you be more inclined to let handle your multi-million dollar account?

Except relationships aren't jobs, and going out with someone isn't an interview. Unlike an employer, people in relationships should accept you at your best AND your worst. They need to know who you really are, and know exactly who they are letting into their life. To put on a facade when introducing yourself to someone you might want to be in a relationship is not only lying to them about who you are, it's lying to yourself about whether or not they actually want to be with YOU.

And people aren't stupid. Eventually if you remain together long enough they'll see what aspects of you that you lied about or covered up. Do you think they'll be flattered by that or appreciate it? Probably not. They'll probably just wonder how they didn't see it before, and begin to wonder what else they thought about you is wrong.

I don't know no body is there true self dating. Men shave every day women hold their gas ect. Same with a job to a degree when you show up you wear a suit and talk all about how good you are. No one admit they check out facebook on company time. It take time before someone is willing to show their bad side.

 

[Lilani]

I don't know no body is there true self dating. Men shave every day women hold their gas ect. Same with a job to a degree when you show up you wear a suit and talk all about how good you are. No one admit they check out facebook on company time. It take time before someone is willing to show their bad side.

There is a bit of dressing up that goes on, and I think everybody expects that to a reasonable point. My boyfriend dressed up on our first date and so did I, but neither of us were under the impression we always dressed that nice. However, there's a fine line between "dressing up and being extra polite" and "trying to impress someone." Trying to impress someone entails a lot more deceit, like lying about things you're interested in, lying about things you do, or catering ALL of your responses to be the perfect one rather than the truthful one.

Dressing up for a date shouldn't be a matter of "trying to impress." It should be a matter of just showing you understand the significance of the occasion.

 

[JimB]

I'm sorry, are you asking me to play an armchair psychologist?

I am asking you to talk about specifics, and most of my attempts thus far have failed, so I am trying a tactic that uses a concrete example.

Then again, seeing as you've so casually dismissed everything I've said from my own personal experience, I'm not sure why I should give a toss about yours.

The things you have said do not make sense to me, so I have asked you--fairly politely, I thought--to explain yourself in terminology I can understand. You have chosen not to do so. That is your right, but it is not my dismissal. I am not the one dismissing people in this instance.

As to why you should give a toss: if you are actually interested in having an exchange of information with me, then I think it is relevant for you to know that an assertion you have made directly contradicts documented evidence I personally possess. If you're not interested in that exchange, then no, you probably ought not to care.

In fact, I'm not going to give a toss about anything else you say until you acknowledge the fact that as a person who is not you, my experience might have been different from yours, and stop trying to force me to accept your perspective as any more correct than my own is.

I thought that asking you for explanations is a de facto acknowledgement that your experiences are different. Why would I need to ask for explanations if they were my experiences?

 

[mecegirl]

Because romantic pursuits are only about "fucking."

No, they are also about all the benefits I made a very short but I hope representative list of in the first paragraph of my post. The only thing I want from a lover than I can't get from a friend will be crotch-related interactions; anything else is there. Support, emotional intimacy, companionship, all that. Friends can do all those things. Hell, I've even cuddled with friends before, though admittedly rarely.

If you think there is something lovers can give that friends can't that is not strictly physical, sensual pleasure, then please, let me know what it is.

There is a connection particular to being in a romantic relationship. It is just something that doesn't develop until the relationship has started. So no, sex isn't the only thing that lovers can give. If that were the case asexual individuals wouldn't exist and desire romantic relationships at all.

Feelings of love are closer to an obsession than everything else. Which is why is is possible to "love" someone who you don't have emotional intimacy with. Or even someone who downright treats you like shit. I think people let themselves get so swept up in their obsession that they imagine that once the other person accepts/returns their feelings that magical things will happen once they finally get together.

 

[JimB]

Feelings of love are closer to an obsession than everything else, which is why is is possible to "love" someone who you don't have emotional intimacy with.

You and I understand the word "love" to be describing two very different phenomena, and I'm not sure I want to argue about it if we can't even agree on what the word means.

 

[mecegirl]

Feelings of love are closer to an obsession than everything else, which is why is is possible to "love" someone who you don't have emotional intimacy with.

You and I understand the word "love" to be describing two very different phenomena, and I'm not sure I want to argue about it if we can't even agree on what the word means.

The word "love" doesn't adequately express what it means, because "love" isn't a singular concept. There are simply too many different types of "love". But that has more to do with the limitations of the English language than anything else. But "love" as it relates to romantic relationships does have an element of obsession to it, especially in its early stages.

 

[IceStar100]

I don't know no body is there true self dating. Men shave every day women hold their gas ect. Same with a job to a degree when you show up you wear a suit and talk all about how good you are. No one admit they check out facebook on company time. It take time before someone is willing to show their bad side.

There is a bit of dressing up that goes on, and I think everybody expects that to a reasonable point. My boyfriend dressed up on our first date and so did I, but neither of us were under the impression we always dressed that nice. However, there's a fine line between "dressing up and being extra polite" and "trying to impress someone." Trying to impress someone entails a lot more deceit, like lying about things you're interested in, lying about things you do, or catering ALL of your responses to be the perfect one rather than the truthful one.

Dressing up for a date shouldn't be a matter of "trying to impress." It should be a matter of just showing you understand the significance of the occasion.

I have to give you that one. The impress some one seems like it would be more harmful. Like applying for a job in a day care when you hate kids... I think I might be stuck on the job thing.

(Caption (the next level) fitting for this discusstion.

 

[Hazy]

Except relationships aren't jobs, and going out with someone isn't an interview. Unlike an employer, people in relationships should accept you at your best AND your worst. They need to know who you really are, and know exactly who they are letting into their life. To put on a facade when introducing yourself to someone you might want to be in a relationship is not only lying to them about who you are, it's lying to yourself about whether or not they actually want to be with YOU.

Dressing your best is putting on facade now? Acknowledging one another's faults is a healthy part of any relationship, yes, but that also doesn't mean you should put them out on display the second you meet someone. And that's where it ties into the job metaphor I mentioned: trust.

I'm not trying to turn you into a bronzed sexual god, I'm trying to teach people to be the very best they can be.

And people aren't stupid. Eventually if you remain together long enough they'll see what aspects of you that you lied about or covered up. Do you think they'll be flattered by that or appreciate it? Probably not. They'll probably just wonder how they didn't see it before, and begin to wonder what else they thought about you is wrong.

Never once did I encourage anybody to lie. I encouraged people to better themselves mentally by talking to other women (gaining knowledge), physically (lifting weights and losing weight), and hygienically (dressing properly and ensuring cleanliness). Attracting women isn't the focal point of this by a long shot, that comes as a byproduct of all the care you give yourself.

It's like when guys get rejected and say "Oh, well it's because women only like guys with a lot of money." Well, they acquired that money because they were put in leadership positions because they showed the aptitude to be able to handle such a role (again, trust) the money just comes as a byproduct of that responsibility. And how did they land such a role? Because they showed confidence, they carried themselves with pride, and they dressed accordingly. That is what I mean when I say "Do you trust this guy to handle your multi-million dollar account?" Which of these two gentlemen looks more up to the task?

 

[Eddie the head]

That is what I mean when I say "Do you trust this guy to handle your multi-million dollar account?" Which of these two gentlemen looks more up to the task?

I know this isn't really your point, but the two look so similar that I couldn't even begin to judge. It's like Coke vs Pepsi it's pretty much the same thing.

 

[Hagi]

The asshole thing to do is neither accepting it won't be more than a friendship nor breaking it off. The asshole thing to do is, even after you've gotten rejected, to keep pursuing the other party even if under the guise of friendship. That's the point where the friend-zone turns toxic, not before.

Sounds more "desperate" than "asshole" to me. Also a bit generalized. Rejection isn't eternal or final, use your own judgement to determine whether you should give up or not. The last person to reject me now happens to be my girlfriend, just saying.

Desperate from a personal perspective does tend to translate to asshole from an outside perspective in these matters. After all, desperation in this context means basically the other mattering increasingly less because your personal desires have been neglected.

As for your girlfriend, I would hope you still took her rejection at that time seriously and didn't push on without regard for her feelings just to get her to accept later. I assume not, which really is the point I'm making.

 

[Hagi]

Spoiler

That is what I mean when I say "Do you trust this guy to handle your multi-million dollar account?" Which of these two gentlemen looks more up to the task?

I know this isn't really your point, but the two look so similar that I couldn't even begin to judge. It's like Coke vs Pepsi it's pretty much the same thing.

I don't know... the one on the left looks slightly less likely to take my money and go buy clothes with it...

As in, more focused on his actual job than on external appearances, which really seems contrary to the point the guy is making...

 

[Tarfeather]

Ugh, and this is why I said "Don't take me too seriously, I'm just rambling".

First off, the point I'm making is that we should probably call this "acquaintance zone", not "friend zone", because a friend is a very important person, and being "friend-zoned" is not in any way a bad thing. I'm not saying that I don't talk to people who are not my friends, or that I don't care about them, I'm just saying I don't consider them incredibly important.

Look, before this gets extended into a series of pointless arguments and ad hominem attacks, let me just explain in more detail what life experience I'm referring to here. See, there's this type of woman who I've dealt very wrongly with in the past. Specifically, the kind of woman who revels in the kind of attention associated with being "in love", but doesn't so much revel in all the other side-effects that has(like god forbid, the other person actually taking a sexual interest in you).

So far, I've been keeping such "friendships" up, in the expectation that the "friendship" part is important, and would outlast any romantic complications. Basically, I've been blaming myself for taking a romantic interest in the first place, and been assuming that all the problems would resolve themselves once I get over it.

But recently, I actually did find a partner and "satisfaction" in that regard. The conclusion is the opposite. Now that I have a partner, I have ceased giving the other person more attention than they give me. The result is that they have completely stopped talking to me. We were never "friends", it was merely an unhealthy relationship being kept alive by my desperation and her wish for male attention beyond her boyfriend.

And I feel that a lot of people suffering from the "friend zone" issue, actually suffer from unhealthy relationships like this.

Basically, now that I've found a woman who I actually get along with, my perspective on women has changed. Suddenly, I judge them to the same standards that I judge males to. And the sad conclusion is, none of the women that so far I have considered "friends", beside of my current partner, are remotely as compatible to me, as my male friends have been.

Yes, it's probably entirely possible to have a healthy friendship with someone from the opposite sex. I just haven't experienced it so far, and thus I have a "bias" based on my life experience. I never meant to make a generalized statement, I was just expressing my own experiences.

I assume you have guy friends (and I assume you're a straight male), you know how you like hanging out with them but don't feel romantically attracted?

I actually have developed a little bit of sexual affection for my male friends over the long years of loneliness. Never took it anywhere, though. But yeah, hanging out with my male friends doesn't feel so different from hanging out with my girlfriend, so I'd definitely say that this is one of the cases where it doesn't really matter so much whether you're in a relationship or not. What matters is how much you care about each other.

What I want to know if how he assumes people who are homosexual pursue friendships with the same sex....

Hm, one of my acquaintances is homosexual, actually, and from what he's told me he has similar issues. Namely, a lot of the guys he takes an interest in, "friend-zone" him, based on them identifying themselves as "straight". I haven't asked him whether he's ever felt really close to a guy and not taken at least a slight sexual interest in them, but my guess is "no".

Also, I think this might serve as good explanation of what I mean. If one of my male friends were to seek a relationship with me, I wouldn't fundamentally reject them. I'd reject them based on what I do not wish to do, e.g. gay sex, kissing another man, etc. But principally speaking, they are important enough to me, to consider a "relationship", whatever that means. It just wouldn't work out in practice, that's all.