Do bronies challenge traditional masculine values?

[Abomination]

Here's a picture of a well-known brony who goes to cons and is known by the name Dustykat.

A brony, yes. I am not claiming ALL, I am claiming the average. One masculine member doesn't prove the average brony to be masculine.

You are the one insisting I am saying all. I am not saying all. I am saying the average.

Again, terribly irrelevant as you are asserting Bronies aren't masculine because they joined a group.

No, I said the action isn't a masculine thing to do.

I never said that at all. I said the average brony is not very masculine. The average male on this site is not a very masculine individual. It doesn't mean every person on this site can not be manly but that a higher proportion of males on this site will not exhibit as many masculine traits as the average male.

Are you saying that EVERY brony is masculine? Because I am not saying that every brony isn't, just that the average isn't.

It isn't a hard distinction. Liking My Little Pony is the opposite of masculine thing to do. Like with any action that is the opposite of masculine the majority of people who perform said action will have a less masculine traits than the average. There can be outliers but you would be disingenuous to claim they were not a minority.

Baseless generalisations, citation needed since you are asserting this as fact.

Do I really have to start linking pictures of bronycon attendees at bronycon?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Why is it demeaning to like something made specifically for girls. The show has great animation, voice acting and writing.
It's no different from someone watching Transformers, Thundercats or Gravity Falls.

I saw someone compare it to watching puppies play for half an hour.

This is why we can't have anything nice.

 

[Abomination]

Why is it demeaning to like something made specifically for girls. The show has great animation, voice acting and writing.
It's no different from someone watching Transformers, Thundercats or Gravity Falls.

I saw someone compare it to watching puppies play for half an hour.

This is why we can't have anything nice.

Nobody says liking My Little Pony is demeaning. I enjoy the show a lot and have watched every episode, but I don't think me doing so challenges what it means to be male.

The brony "movement" is just a fan base with varying degrees of obsession, like trekkies, furries, browncoats, otacons or whatever they're called. They're not special, they're just a thing.

 

[shintakie10]

Suited for Success was an entire episode about Rarity gettin the fame she always wanted, then realizin it wasn't worth givin up her friends for. It was also considered to be one of the better episodes in the show.

I'm pretty sure EVERY cartoon has one if not several episodes about Be Careful What You Wish For. Is this really the show at its finest?

Considerin that wasn't the point of the episode, sure why not.

Edit - The actual moral of the episode was more along the lines of bein true to yourself and to never forget where you came from, nor to forget the people that have always been there for you along the way once you reach your goals.

 

[kickyourass]

Only in the sense that we're watching a show aimed primarily at the opposite gender.
As much as I love the show and (most) of the community, a man watching this MLP isn't 'challenging traditional masculine values' any more then a woman watching Transformers of G.I. Joe is 'challenging traditional feminine values.' It's just a person enjoying fiction that wasn't initially aimed at them, nothing more nothing less.

 

[Panda Mania]

Do females who like MLP conform to traditional feminine values?

Just a question.


EDIT: dammit! ninja'd by the post above :\

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Suited for Success was an entire episode about Rarity gettin the fame she always wanted, then realizin it wasn't worth givin up her friends for. It was also considered to be one of the better episodes in the show.

I'm pretty sure EVERY cartoon has one if not several episodes about Be Careful What You Wish For. Is this really the show at its finest?

Considerin that wasn't the point of the episode, sure why not.

Edit - The actual moral of the episode was more along the lines of bein true to yourself and to never forget where you came from, nor to forget the people that have always been there for you along the way once you reach your goals.

Pretty standard-issue plotline if you ask me. I'm not saying MLP is bad, but, dunno, just seems so... mediocre.

 

[Yal]

Do females who like MLP conform to traditional feminine values?

Sure. Ponies never got the same flak as Barbie, no body image issues, but we are looking at Hasbro's premiere pink aisle brand here. The adult equivalent would be romantic comedies and chick lit.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

We are challenging traditional masculine values? I dunno. I just watch the show. It's not a fucking lifestyle, people. It's not even really a hobby. Saying that watching MLP:FiM is challenging traditional masculine values is like saying someone playing on a Wii that isn't normally considered a gamer is challenging traditional jock values.

Oh, and as a brony, I'd appreciate you not throwing me in with the fans of the show that do stuff you find offensive. As gamers who have had to deal with making sure the government knows you aren't one of the gamers that goes on a killing spree after playing a violent video game, I thought you would understand that you can't judge an entire fandom by the actions of the more extreme members.

I understand that there are those of you who just don't care for the show. More power to you. But I am not a pedophile/zoophile who wants to fuck an animated pony just because I do like the show.

Where was I? Oh, yeah. We aren't challenging anything, other than the idea that merchandising shows have to be bad.

 

[Radoh]

Here's a picture of a well-known brony who goes to cons and is known by the name Dustykat.

A brony, yes. I am not claiming ALL, I am claiming the average. One masculine member doesn't prove the average brony to be masculine.

You are the one insisting I am saying all. I am not saying all. I am saying the average.

Hardly. Of all the bronies that are publicized

Of ALL the bronies that are publicised. Notice that you are in fact saying ALL and not most, or the average, you are saying ALL. Of course, even if you had been saying average you'd still be lying since, once again, you are making baseless generalisations.

 

[Abomination]

Of ALL the bronies that are publicised. Notice that you are in fact saying ALL and not most, or the average, you are saying ALL. Of course, even if you had been saying average you'd still be lying since, once again, you are making baseless generalisations.

Quote that line in full or not at all.

Of all the bronies that are publicized and the type of people who attended Pony/Bronycon I can say with full certainty that the average male there did not exhibit particular signs of masculinity.

It isn't lying and it isn't baseless.

 

[Abomination]

Of all the bronies that are publicized and the type of people who attended Pony/Bronycon I can say with full certainty that the average male there did not exhibit particular signs of masculinity.

It isn't lying and it isn't baseless.

You know, ... the ones who are publicized and attend cons, are not necessarily a representative sample of bronies as a whole.

Just sayin'

Of course not, but we are talking about a group of individuals who are nerding it up over a program aimed at young girls. Since there's no way of accurately recording the "manliness" quotient of every member one needs to resort to speculation and hypothesis. We can say with confidence that the average brony will not be as masculine as the average male.

This isn't a bad thing, it's just a thing.

 

[Eddie the head]

Of ALL the bronies that are publicised. Notice that you are in fact saying ALL and not most, or the average, you are saying ALL. Of course, even if you had been saying average you'd still be lying since, once again, you are making baseless generalisations.

That's what we call quote mining. You deliberately cut off the quote to try and change what the guy said. I don't care what side of the debate you are on. That's an underhanded thing to do.

 

[Simonism451]

No, they don't. Bronies (like huge parts of nerd culture in general) challenge traditional adult values .
Face it, no matter how competent your show about talking horses is at teaching children about friendship, it's not exactly Dostoyevski.

 

[xplosive59]

I do enjoy the Idea Channel alot but they are really off on this one. Because no, it's a cartoon not some kind of political movement. It isn't even as popular as people would have you believe or known to those who don't spend alot of time on the net.

 

[xplosive59]

Nobody says liking My Little Pony is demeaning. I enjoy the show a lot and have watched every episode, but I don't think me doing so challenges what it means to be male.

The brony "movement" is just a fan base with varying degrees of obsession, like trekkies, furries, browncoats, otacons or whatever they're called. They're not special, they're just a thing.

This guy gets it. Bronies are not the first obsessive fan group and they are not the last, in real life people either dislike bronies or have no strong feelings what so ever.

 

[C. Cain]

Of course not, but we are talking about a group of individuals who are nerding it up over a program aimed at young girls. Since there's no way of accurately recording the "manliness" quotient of every member one needs to resort to speculation and hypothesis. We can say with confidence that the average brony will not be as masculine as the average male.

This isn't a bad thing, it's just a thing.

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. You even admit that you cannot measure the average manliness of every member and yet you claim, in the very next sentence no less, that we can say with confidence that your hasty generalisations are true.

And while we are at it - may I suggest that you define your terms first? What constitutes manliness in your book? If I recall correctly you said earlier that a 'masculine' man who also happens to be a brony challenges the notion of masculinity on an individual basis. Therefore I have to assume that being a brony is per definitionYour definition. Or rather what I deduce might be part of your definition. a trait that somehow conflicts with masculinity. Which, in turn, would make your previous statement (i.e. "We can say with confidence that the average brony will not be as masculine as the average male.") true. Having said that, however, it'd also make it a tautology and therefore utterly useless.

 

[Lilani]

I feel like the question "Do bronies challenge traditional masculine values?" is running under the assumption that a "normal" male would ONLY engage in traditional "male" activities. What are things involved in masculinity? A desire of physical and sexual dominance? Placing significant value on physical strength and virility? Having a knowledge of mechanical tools and devices?

And then, because it's just as important to this question, what are traditional feminine values? Fine motor skills (being able to thread a needle, sewing small stitches consistently, etc)? Placing significant value on sexuality and seductiveness? Placing significant value on taking on and completing domestic tasks (raising kids, cleaning the house, etc)?

I think to say that "normal" men NEVER engage in feminine activities and "normal" women NEVER engage in masculine activities is silly. I know my boyfriend does dishes at his apartment and cooks food, and I like to exercise and I know how to hang drywall. So in order to be a functional and independent human being, there needs to be a bit of overlap on the part of both genders.

And everything else there that isn't a task is something either the person takes on themselves or is a part of their personality. Yes a stereotypical male trait is a desire for sexual dominance, but that isn't always the case. In fact, in my experience guys who place too much value here tend to be manipulative jerkwads who end up in prison at some point. Physical strength? Well yes some men are "born with it" more and you can build yourself up if you aren't, but working out is a lifestyle choice and not all men do it, and most of society doesn't care if a guy works out. Well yes if he weighs 700 pounds there might be some judgment, but you don't have to be totally ripped just to get by. And the same is on the female side: you choose to have kids, choose to do things like sew and knit, and sexuality and how much they put on display depends on their desire for such attention and level of extroversion.

Now of all those things, I can't really spot one among the male camp that would prohibit the enjoyment of something like My Little Pony. The thing that is most feminine about it is the art style. Otherwise, MLP is sort of a masculine show, really. Ponies with superpowers that fight evil and mischief when it comes knocking, standing up for their friends, defending their homeland, helping each other grow stronger as people (er, ponies).

Yes men aren't the target demographic, but the target demographic of the Ninja Turtles and Transformers wasn't girls and the shows weren't feminine at all yet nobody raises an eyebrow at girls who love them. Perhaps grown women, but I think it's generally known at this point that even adults can love cartoons.

So, yeah. I think the reason so many have flipped their shit over men liking this when nobody really did so when the PowerPuff Girls was big is because MLP is more overtly feminine in the art style, and the age of the men is a little up there. And I think the explanation for that is simply because the show is structured like a cartoon from the 90s. A regular cast of characters all with their own personalities and flaws, overcoming life and other obstacles while learning valuable moral lessons along the way. And who grew up in the 90s? Why the 20 and 30-somethings of today. So it stands to reason a show of that format would catch the attention of that generation. It would be like if a flawless reboot of the Flintstones was launched. The 60s and 70s kids would be all over that show.

 

[Lilani]

Do females who like MLP conform to traditional feminine values?

Sure. Ponies never got the same flak as Barbie, no body image issues, but we are looking at Hasbro's premiere pink aisle brand here. The adult equivalent would be romantic comedies and chick lit.

Take the element of "ponies" out of the show for a moment, and what do you have? A cast of characters who lead normal day-to-day lives, but who also have their own sets of superpowers that allow them to fight evil and mischief. All of the characters are single, and while they don't seem to detest the opposite sex they certainly aren't spending all of their time seeking them out, and it's pretty clear even if they settled down for a domestic life their dedication to their duty as heroes would come first. These characters all have their own personalities and flaws, and when they aren't fighting evil, solving mysteries, or helping others who are in trouble they're pushing each other and teaching each other lessons so that they can grow to become better people and friends.

That doesn't sound overtly feminine to me. In fact, that sounds rather like Power Rangers, or any other show from the 90s with heroes that can beat a villain and teach you a lesson about life in 22 minutes flat. Does covering all of that in a pink and pastel varnish really change any of those things? Chick lit isn't feminine because most of the people and stuff in it is pink. Chick lit is feminine because the topics and themes it deals with are almost exclusively feminine in nature. Relationships, domesticity, sexual submission. I don't think those things are really covered in MLP, at least not to a point where it can be argued that is an integral part of the show's theme.

 

[Abomination]

The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

That particular scenario only applies when you are trying to prove the existence of something, not when you're examining the traits of a group.

You even admit that you cannot measure the average manliness of every member and yet you claim, in the very next sentence no less, that we can say with confidence that your hasty generalisations are true.

They are hardly 'hasty'. The stereotypical brony is not a masculine fellow, they also aren't your average fellow.

And while we are at it - may I suggest that you define your terms first? What constitutes manliness in your book? If I recall correctly you said earlier that a 'masculine' man who also happens to be a brony challenges the notion of masculinity on an individual basis. Therefore I have to assume that being a brony is per definitionYour definition. Or rather what I deduce might be part of your definition. a trait that somehow conflicts with masculinity. Which, in turn, would make your previous statement (i.e. "We can say with confidence that the average brony will not be as masculine as the average male.") true. Having said that, however, it'd also make it a tautology and therefore utterly useless.

When dealing with averages a tautology is not utterly useless, especially when more elaborate sources of evidence are not available.

Being a fan of My Little Pony is the opposite of a masculine thing, ergo we can confidently say that it will tend to attract less masculine members. The same can be applied to cartoons attracting children - certainly there will still be an adult or young adult following but the most common demographic is children. I want to provide more examples as to how stereotypical bronies are less masculine than average but such examples will naturally offend or upset.

As for the definition of masculinity I assumed we were talking about the traditional version of masculinity: high physical development, no-nonsense attitude and avoiding expressions of emotion. Hell, Ron Swanson is the poster-boy of masculinity.