Do evil thoughts make you evil? Like, really evil thoughts?

Richardplex

New member
Jun 22, 2011
1,731
0
0
zehydra said:
Richardplex said:
Retyopy! I haven't seen one of your threads for weeks! I can die happy now that you're back!

OT: Yes, intention as well as the act are important. Though he should totally see a psychiatrist.
I disagree. Intention is irrelevant if he never commits any act associated with the intention.
Depends on the meaning of the word evil. And the word act. Are people in Minority Report not evil because they were stopped before the act happened for example?

If the opportunity came along for a person to do evil, such as a complete breakdown of the law, and they would for definite do that evil, then yes, they are evil, in my opinion. Of course, the third problem of not being to say for definite what person would or would not do comes into play here, which is the main problem. Which is thing that separates my idea of evil people with some crazy old guy muttering on about he's going to kill all humans.
 

KeyMaster45

Gone Gonzo
Jun 16, 2008
2,846
0
0
Richardplex said:
If you put a gun to a man's head and pulled the trigger, but the gun jammed, does that make you a better person than someone who's gun did not jam?
It means that next time you should probably buy American, or at least bring a spare gun.

OT: I'd say the guy who actually acts on his evil intentions is the evil one. The poor schmuck who wants to do evil things but doesn't out of fear for the law is nothing more than a poor schmuck who wishes he was evil. He's hardly a bad person, he's actually quite average since I'm pretty sure most people would do any number of evil things given the opportunity to get away with it scot free.
 

LostAlone

New member
Sep 3, 2010
283
0
0
retyopy said:
zehydra said:
Richardplex said:
Retyopy! I haven't seen one of your threads for weeks! I can die happy now that you're back!

OT: Yes, intention as well as the act are important. Though he should totally see a psychiatrist.
I disagree. Intention is irrelevant if he never commits any act associated with the intention.[/quote

Yes, but the only reason he doesn't do evil things is fear of punishment. Doesn't that change anything?
No of course it doesn't.

If he were evil then he would be compelled to do it, he wouldn't have a choice, and the punishment would be irrelevant. Fear of punishment is how the legal system works. We'd like to think that we are all evolved enough to just not have bad thoughts, but that's bullshit.

Also, its worth mentioning that unless you've killed or raped or something else terrible, there is a MASSIVE gap between thinking you want to do it and actually doing it. Without some kind of provocation to push you over the edge you'd have to be crazy enough to not genuinely in control of your own actions to just start killing people because you felt like it was a good idea.
 

Andrew Hass

New member
Nov 23, 2011
3
0
0
In most cases, it's not a crime unless you get caught. In this case, it's not evil unless you carry it out.
 

JonnyHG

New member
Nov 7, 2011
141
0
0
Richardplex said:
JonnyHG said:
Even though thoughts can influence actions, morality is determined by what you DO...not by what you think.
If you put a gun to a man's head and pulled the trigger, but the gun jammed, does that make you a better person than someone who's gun did not jam?
Of course not, the ACTION that I took is exactly the same. The outcome is different and might land me a different punishment, but the level of evil is the same. The thoughts and actions would be the same, the mechanism just happened to fail which should have no bearing on how evil I would be.
 

retyopy

New member
Aug 6, 2011
2,184
0
0
LostAlone said:
retyopy said:
zehydra said:
Richardplex said:
Retyopy! I haven't seen one of your threads for weeks! I can die happy now that you're back!

OT: Yes, intention as well as the act are important. Though he should totally see a psychiatrist.
I disagree. Intention is irrelevant if he never commits any act associated with the intention.
Yes, but the only reason he doesn't do evil things is fear of punishment. Doesn't that change anything?
No of course it doesn't.

If he were evil then he would be compelled to do it, he wouldn't have a choice, and the punishment would be irrelevant. Fear of punishment is how the legal system works. We'd like to think that we are all evolved enough to just not have bad thoughts, but that's bullshit.

Also, its worth mentioning that unless you've killed or raped or something else terrible, there is a MASSIVE gap between thinking you want to do it and actually doing it. Without some kind of provocation to push you over the edge you'd have to be crazy enough to not genuinely in control of your own actions to just start killing people because you felt like it was a good idea.
Really? Being evil makes you compelled to do evil things? You wouldn't be afraid of the consquences? It wouldn't matter?
 

LostAlone

New member
Sep 3, 2010
283
0
0
JonnyHG said:
Richardplex said:
JonnyHG said:
Even though thoughts can influence actions, morality is determined by what you DO...not by what you think.
If you put a gun to a man's head and pulled the trigger, but the gun jammed, does that make you a better person than someone who's gun did not jam?
Of course not, the ACTION that I took is exactly the same. The outcome is different and might land me a different punishment, but the level of evil is the same. The thoughts and actions would be the same, the mechanism just happened to fail which should have no bearing on how evil I would be.
Just to interject a little here.... Killing isn't evil per se, its very dependent on why.

If the guy whose head you blew off was holding the remote for a bomb that would kill other people ? Not evil.
If the guy whose head you blew off was the man who killed you family ? Probably not evil.
If the guy whose head you blew off was looking at you funny ? Evil.
 

retyopy

New member
Aug 6, 2011
2,184
0
0
LostAlone said:
JonnyHG said:
Richardplex said:
JonnyHG said:
Even though thoughts can influence actions, morality is determined by what you DO...not by what you think.
If you put a gun to a man's head and pulled the trigger, but the gun jammed, does that make you a better person than someone who's gun did not jam?
Of course not, the ACTION that I took is exactly the same. The outcome is different and might land me a different punishment, but the level of evil is the same. The thoughts and actions would be the same, the mechanism just happened to fail which should have no bearing on how evil I would be.
Just to interject a little here.... Killing isn't evil per se, its very dependent on why.

If the guy whose head you blew off was holding the remote for a bomb that would kill other people ? Not evil.
If the guy whose head you blew off was the man who killed you family ? Probably not evil.
If the guy whose head you blew off was looking at you funny ? Evil.
But we're assuming for the purposes of this thread that if James is doing something that could be perceived as evil, he's doing it for evil reasons.
 

LostAlone

New member
Sep 3, 2010
283
0
0
retyopy said:
LostAlone said:
retyopy said:
zehydra said:
Richardplex said:
Retyopy! I haven't seen one of your threads for weeks! I can die happy now that you're back!

OT: Yes, intention as well as the act are important. Though he should totally see a psychiatrist.
I disagree. Intention is irrelevant if he never commits any act associated with the intention.
Yes, but the only reason he doesn't do evil things is fear of punishment. Doesn't that change anything?
No of course it doesn't.

If he were evil then he would be compelled to do it, he wouldn't have a choice, and the punishment would be irrelevant. Fear of punishment is how the legal system works. We'd like to think that we are all evolved enough to just not have bad thoughts, but that's bullshit.

Also, its worth mentioning that unless you've killed or raped or something else terrible, there is a MASSIVE gap between thinking you want to do it and actually doing it. Without some kind of provocation to push you over the edge you'd have to be crazy enough to not genuinely in control of your own actions to just start killing people because you felt like it was a good idea.
Really? Being evil makes you compelled to do evil things? You wouldn't be afraid of the consquences? It wouldn't matter?
Yes.

You can't be evil without doing evil things. And you can't do evil things, fully aware of the consequences, unless you are compelled (by hate for example) to do them.

If the consequences alone are enough to stop you, you can't be evil. If you are evil you care more about doing the bad things than about what will happen to you. Killing someone of whatever race is more important than your own life.

Edit -

Also, try not to use evil so much. Its way too broad a term to be helpful. There isn't really such a thing as an evil reason. People who do things that we consider to be evil don't think that they are doing 'evil' things, they mostly think they are doing the right thing, they has some kind of dissonance in their values that makes them think its ok to do those bad things.

That's really what evil is. It's thinking that there isn't a problem with harming a person or people.
 

Richardplex

New member
Jun 22, 2011
1,731
0
0
LostAlone said:
retyopy said:
LostAlone said:
retyopy said:
zehydra said:
Richardplex said:
Retyopy! I haven't seen one of your threads for weeks! I can die happy now that you're back!

OT: Yes, intention as well as the act are important. Though he should totally see a psychiatrist.
I disagree. Intention is irrelevant if he never commits any act associated with the intention.
Yes, but the only reason he doesn't do evil things is fear of punishment. Doesn't that change anything?
No of course it doesn't.

If he were evil then he would be compelled to do it, he wouldn't have a choice, and the punishment would be irrelevant. Fear of punishment is how the legal system works. We'd like to think that we are all evolved enough to just not have bad thoughts, but that's bullshit.

Also, its worth mentioning that unless you've killed or raped or something else terrible, there is a MASSIVE gap between thinking you want to do it and actually doing it. Without some kind of provocation to push you over the edge you'd have to be crazy enough to not genuinely in control of your own actions to just start killing people because you felt like it was a good idea.
Really? Being evil makes you compelled to do evil things? You wouldn't be afraid of the consquences? It wouldn't matter?
Yes.

You can't be evil without doing evil things. And you can't do evil things, fully aware of the consequences, unless you are compelled (by hate for example) to do them.

If the consequences alone are enough to stop you, you can't be evil. If you are evil you care more about doing the bad things than about what will happen to you. Killing someone of whatever race is more important than your own life.
And here's the problem of this topic. What is evil? Is james evil, or merely a coward who's a massive prick? Are only people you described evil? In which case, are only sociopath's evil? Does that make the mental illness irrelevant, we should hate and fear someone like that, instead of helping them? Even when you try and make Good and Evil black and white, you can't get rid of that grey...
 

retyopy

New member
Aug 6, 2011
2,184
0
0
LostAlone said:
retyopy said:
LostAlone said:
retyopy said:
zehydra said:
Richardplex said:
Retyopy! I haven't seen one of your threads for weeks! I can die happy now that you're back!

OT: Yes, intention as well as the act are important. Though he should totally see a psychiatrist.
I disagree. Intention is irrelevant if he never commits any act associated with the intention.
Yes, but the only reason he doesn't do evil things is fear of punishment. Doesn't that change anything?
No of course it doesn't.

If he were evil then he would be compelled to do it, he wouldn't have a choice, and the punishment would be irrelevant. Fear of punishment is how the legal system works. We'd like to think that we are all evolved enough to just not have bad thoughts, but that's bullshit.

Also, its worth mentioning that unless you've killed or raped or something else terrible, there is a MASSIVE gap between thinking you want to do it and actually doing it. Without some kind of provocation to push you over the edge you'd have to be crazy enough to not genuinely in control of your own actions to just start killing people because you felt like it was a good idea.
Really? Being evil makes you compelled to do evil things? You wouldn't be afraid of the consquences? It wouldn't matter?
Yes.

You can't be evil without doing evil things. And you can't do evil things, fully aware of the consequences, unless you are compelled (by hate for example) to do them.

If the consequences alone are enough to stop you, you can't be evil. If you are evil you care more about doing the bad things than about what will happen to you. Killing someone of whatever race is more important than your own life.
Huh. Well, we've stumbled into the dreadful realm of opinion here, so its probably best not to venture deeper. But interesting view you have there.
 

Doc Cannon

I hate custom titles.
Feb 3, 2010
247
0
0
To me, morals are all about people's intentions. So if the guy would like to do bad things because he's a racist/misogynist/etc but doesn't because he is law abiding, he is evil. Fear isn't a morally acceptable motivation for civilized behaviour.

I'd say an evil person is someone who would willingly commit heinous acts in the event of the collapse of civilization.
 

retyopy

New member
Aug 6, 2011
2,184
0
0
Richardplex said:
LostAlone said:
retyopy said:
LostAlone said:
retyopy said:
zehydra said:
Richardplex said:
Retyopy! I haven't seen one of your threads for weeks! I can die happy now that you're back!

OT: Yes, intention as well as the act are important. Though he should totally see a psychiatrist.
I disagree. Intention is irrelevant if he never commits any act associated with the intention.
Yes, but the only reason he doesn't do evil things is fear of punishment. Doesn't that change anything?
No of course it doesn't.

If he were evil then he would be compelled to do it, he wouldn't have a choice, and the punishment would be irrelevant. Fear of punishment is how the legal system works. We'd like to think that we are all evolved enough to just not have bad thoughts, but that's bullshit.

Also, its worth mentioning that unless you've killed or raped or something else terrible, there is a MASSIVE gap between thinking you want to do it and actually doing it. Without some kind of provocation to push you over the edge you'd have to be crazy enough to not genuinely in control of your own actions to just start killing people because you felt like it was a good idea.
Really? Being evil makes you compelled to do evil things? You wouldn't be afraid of the consquences? It wouldn't matter?
Yes.

You can't be evil without doing evil things. And you can't do evil things, fully aware of the consequences, unless you are compelled (by hate for example) to do them.

If the consequences alone are enough to stop you, you can't be evil. If you are evil you care more about doing the bad things than about what will happen to you. Killing someone of whatever race is more important than your own life.
And here's the problem of this topic. What is evil? Is james evil, or merely a coward who's a massive prick? Are only people you described evil? In which case, are only sociopath's evil? Does that make the mental illness irrelevant, we should hate and fear someone like that, instead of helping them? Even when you try and make Good and Evil black and white, you can't get rid of that grey...
Yeah, that's the problem with trying to make threads about stuff like this. It's all based on too much opinion, not enough matter. But I can dream, can't I?
 

Richardplex

New member
Jun 22, 2011
1,731
0
0
retyopy said:
Richardplex said:
LostAlone said:
retyopy said:
LostAlone said:
retyopy said:
zehydra said:
Richardplex said:
Retyopy! I haven't seen one of your threads for weeks! I can die happy now that you're back!

OT: Yes, intention as well as the act are important. Though he should totally see a psychiatrist.
I disagree. Intention is irrelevant if he never commits any act associated with the intention.
Yes, but the only reason he doesn't do evil things is fear of punishment. Doesn't that change anything?
No of course it doesn't.

If he were evil then he would be compelled to do it, he wouldn't have a choice, and the punishment would be irrelevant. Fear of punishment is how the legal system works. We'd like to think that we are all evolved enough to just not have bad thoughts, but that's bullshit.

Also, its worth mentioning that unless you've killed or raped or something else terrible, there is a MASSIVE gap between thinking you want to do it and actually doing it. Without some kind of provocation to push you over the edge you'd have to be crazy enough to not genuinely in control of your own actions to just start killing people because you felt like it was a good idea.
Really? Being evil makes you compelled to do evil things? You wouldn't be afraid of the consquences? It wouldn't matter?
Yes.

You can't be evil without doing evil things. And you can't do evil things, fully aware of the consequences, unless you are compelled (by hate for example) to do them.

If the consequences alone are enough to stop you, you can't be evil. If you are evil you care more about doing the bad things than about what will happen to you. Killing someone of whatever race is more important than your own life.
And here's the problem of this topic. What is evil? Is james evil, or merely a coward who's a massive prick? Are only people you described evil? In which case, are only sociopath's evil? Does that make the mental illness irrelevant, we should hate and fear someone like that, instead of helping them? Even when you try and make Good and Evil black and white, you can't get rid of that grey...
Yeah, that's the problem with trying to make threads about stuff like this. It's all based on too much opinion, not enough matter. But I can dream, can't I?
It's not the opinion thing, it's when it comes down to pedantics about definitions of words. And then you can't go anywhere forward from that.
 

zomboyd

New member
Mar 25, 2009
2
0
0
maybe but even a good person may laugh at the others misfortune. They may feel sorry for the person but you cant tell me you have not laughed at others expense when they get hurt i know i have even as i felt bad for them.
 

retyopy

New member
Aug 6, 2011
2,184
0
0
zomboyd said:
maybe but even a good person may laugh at the others misfortune. They may feel sorry for the person but you cant tell me you have not laughed at others expense when they get hurt i know i have even as i felt bad for them.
What does that have to do with anything?
 

LostAlone

New member
Sep 3, 2010
283
0
0
retyopy said:
And here's the problem of this topic. What is evil? Is james evil, or merely a coward who's a massive prick? Are only people you described evil? In which case, are only sociopath's evil? Does that make the mental illness irrelevant, we should hate and fear someone like that, instead of helping them? Even when you try and make Good and Evil black and white, you can't get rid of that grey...
All of these are very good questions.

When you get down to it, everyone who ever did bad things can be understood if you try to understand it. Everyone who massacred civilians in Bosnia came out of a cauldron of racial hatred where they were taught that other groups were sub human, and so killing them wasn't a crime.

Crazy people do crazy things, but they can't be evil because they weren't in control. They never knew what they were doing, they were never intending to do it, and yet they did. That was because of their illness, not because they were evil.

The point being that there genuinely is no such thing as evil. It's a creation of the moral guardians of society. It is what you label people to make it ok to do terrible things to them. That's the crux of the matter. The church called other religions evil , because that enabled normal people to do appalling things to them. Evil is a label for whatever your society dislikes that removes the humanity from those we label.

We call terrorists evil for blowing up buildings, but its ok when we bomb arab children, because they are evil.

On a philosophical level, calling a person evil is an 'evil' act, because you strip him of his humanity. It proclaims that no further questions need to be asked and that it is ok to spit on him and beat him and kill him. It says that his motivations and intentions are irrelevant and should not be investigated. We should not be interested in finding gout why he did what he did (even though that would be the humane thing to do), we should simply revile him. And it is that lack of understanding that prevents us from stopping bad things happening in the future.
 

badgersprite

[--SYSTEM ERROR--]
Sep 22, 2009
3,820
0
0
...What?

You'd think that by definition an evil person is indeed an evil person. Isn't that a bit like saying, "Are heroes heroic?"

Admittedly, I'm one of those people who thinks the word 'evil' is kind of a misnomer, but I get the spirit of what you're saying.

Doc Cannon said:
To me, morals are all about people's intentions. So if the guy would like to do bad things because he's a racist/misogynist/etc but doesn't because he is law abiding, he is evil. Fear isn't a morally acceptable motivation for civilized behaviour.

I'd say an evil person is someone who would willingly commit heinous acts in the event of the collapse of civilization.
Yeah, I agree with this. Repugnant beliefs and being an amoral psychopath is not excused by cowardice. If someone doesn't act on their feelings because they know it's wrong or because they do not wish to be that sort of person then there's definitely a strong argument to be made that they aren't evil at all, in spite of their bad feelings. Someone who only doesn't act on it out of cowardice, however, or who only acts nice or civil to gain some kind of tactical advantage, whatever it may be, is just as evil as their intentions.

Put it this way: there's a big difference between being scared of being an evil, horrible person, and being scared of being caught doing something evil or being recognised as an evil person. A big difference.

Sort of like how there's a difference between someone who does a good deed because they think they're doing something good and helpful, and someone who does a good deed because they want to show other people up or receive some kind of benefit for it.