Do gamers not understand what good and bad controls are anymore?

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I also don't like the Fulton in MP. That the match depends more on how many opponents each team extracts than on kill counts. That's not what I came to MGO for.

The fultons really only matter in Bounty Hunter, which is basically MGO3's Team Deathmatch mode. I'm ok with it as it gives a bit of a twist to TDM and TDM is always the worst mode in shooters IMO. When actually playing good teams, it's really hard to fulton somebody. TDM is always very campy in nature anyways. Plus, it gives players not great at killing something else to focus on and contribute, which I find alright for basically the game's "casual" game mode. I think more of the issue is how the game makes fultoning so unskillful and so easy.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

To me the normal jump button is X for action games because all action games like dmc god of war bayonetta and ninja gaiden use X for it, also old tomb raider used it as well.


Nowadays a lot of games use a "do all things" button which is both run and jump and climb up/down depending on what is nearby so if that is the standard anything more complex may feel bad but that is unavoidable. It is a question of simplicity vs freedom.


Players not used to weighty realistic movement will struggle in games which contain it. It is more of a testament to their low degree of variety in gaming experiences than anything, if you only started gaming recently and all you know is shooters TLG will of course feel odd. Ico felt odd for me too back in the day. The trick is wether you keep perservering or not.

I think the point here is that someone like Jim Sterling, who's been around quite a few gaming generations, should realize this by now. Not every game is going to control like a Nintendo platformer, nor should it. People have already demonstrated that outside of Trico's quirky behavior and a lazy camera, TLG is completely, functionally playable. He's acting like it's broken for whatever reason, be it lack of time to review, lack of objective critical thought, and/or a combination of these and something else entirely.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

Playing Tomb Raider on PC, the controls would also still fail as I very much doubt there's a cover button.

For the record, I'm going to say that this is a YMMV thing as well, because I actually fucking love the contextual cover in the Tomb Raider reboot games, and vastly prefer it to the button-snap system in games like Gears of War or Mass Effect 2/3.

The contextual cover system is definitely easier no doubt; however, those cover systems will get you killed, that's just a fact. Any time a game attempts to predict what you want to do, there's going to be times when it predicts wrong, there's just no way around that.

See, you say that, but I just haven't seen it myself, so once again, it's kind of a very personal point.

Any flaws in the control system are magnified online. Again, that's not that big a deal against AI, but against human players that gets you killed.

There are quite a few things that go into getting killed while playing online games. I'm not going to say that contextual cover isn't a bigger problem in online play, but the biggest reasons for that would just be the issues inherent in online play itself, primary among them being latency and people glitching the system. Even with a solid connection, I still sigh every time I'm invaded in a Dark Souls game because everyone seems to be able to hit me from five miles away while my attacks whiff them even with visibly direct connections. There's a reason I don't typically play online games, and it's not because contextual cover gets me killed. So while I will agree that you have a point here, it's still a highly subjective one and not one where you can just say "contextual cover is always shit no matter what! Nobody should ever use it for anything ever!"

I hear you miles away. I definitely wouldn't be as big a Souls fan if online connectivity was mandatory, seeing as to how many issues there are with balance, server stability and security. This is something that could truly make a game badly unplayable. It's a cool extra when it works, but there are still far too many kinks to work out of online play, and the sad part is Souls games aren't even close to the worst offenders of them.

Another issue is that for people who really enjoy a certain game(s), it can be a huge bummer when its Achievements/Trophies have an allotment that require playing online. Sometimes people have busy lives and aren't able to even discover a game until most everyone else has moved onto the next installment. Insult is added to injury when most online A/T's are for stupid, redundant drivel like "kill x class 50 times with y weapon" or whatever.

Games with multiplayer should have a completely different set of online-only parameters for in-game stats, and Achievements/Trophies should remain free from the fickle nature of online play.

 

[Bombiz]

How did this thread go from discussion of controls to discussing different types of cover systems?

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

A lot of the issues with the Last Guardian are due to overdoing the animations for various actions and the lack of context in some of the animations. There are just a lot of contextual issues and overall floaty animation that seriously detracts from the overall responsiveness of the controls.
And there are places where the character gets hung up on insignificant portions of the environment, the lack of context in knowing what is/isn't climbable surfaces to the point where certain climbable surfaces can look exactly like unclimbable surfaces and vice-versa.
If this wasn't a game that has a decade's worth of development behind it, stuff like that would be forgivable. I'm not asking for over-indulgent handholding, just that there be some form of context. I don't want to feel like I'm being forced to attempt developer mind-reading to get through a section of a game.
Prince of Persia: Sands of Time is one of the best games in terms of contextual cues for traversing environments and it has beautiful animations that do not detract from the controls.
Its sad, to me, that a game as well put together in terms of story beats is hurt so badly by poor design decisions... TLG had a lot more potential.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

How did this thread go from discussion of controls to discussing different types of cover systems?

Cover systems are tied to the controls. Where's the knocks in reviews against the cover systems of MGS5, The Last of Us, and Tomb Raider for having a contextual cover systems that are objectively inferior to using a button to take cover? Don't even say its subjective because a game predicting what you want to do is always going to be worse (predicting wrong a certain % of the time) than me being able to tell it what I want to do. I remember in TLoU having to stick and unstick Joel from the same piece cover numerous times just to get him to shoot over the correct shoulder as he would constantly get on cover with the wrong shoulder. Where's the that criticism in any review of TLoU?

A lot of the issues with the Last Guardian are due to overdoing the animations for various actions and the lack of context in some of the animations. There are just a lot of contextual issues and overall floaty animation that seriously detracts from the overall responsiveness of the controls.
And there are places where the character gets hung up on insignificant portions of the environment, the lack of context in knowing what is/isn't climbable surfaces to the point where certain climbable surfaces can look exactly like unclimbable surfaces and vice-versa.
If this wasn't a game that has a decade's worth of development behind it, stuff like that would be forgivable. I'm not asking for over-indulgent handholding, just that there be some form of context. I don't want to feel like I'm being forced to attempt developer mind-reading to get through a section of a game.
Prince of Persia: Sands of Time is one of the best games in terms of contextual cues for traversing environments and it has beautiful animations that do not detract from the controls.
Its sad, to me, that a game as well put together in terms of story beats is hurt so badly by poor design decisions... TLG had a lot more potential.

What is and is not climbable in TLG is rather easy to tell, there's rather distinct edges. Just because it's not like Uncharted with climbable grips being yellow (or white in Tomb Raider) doesn't make it bad. Naughty Dog's "subtle" tells are extremely annoying and immersion breaking, every place you need to go next is yellow, the environment is not organic at all. And games like Uncharted and Tomb Raider actually need that stuff because of how the platforming is not based on physics but animations and thus you have several jumps that don't seem like you could make it but you can due to different jumping animations. Whereas in any Team ICO game, I can tell just by just looking at the distance if I can make the jump or not because your character has a consistent jumping distance, but Drake and Lara do not. TLG's actual better platforming can be seen in those sections where you are up in the rafters (where you gotta open the gate next to enemies to let Trico in); I made quite a few long jumps across the rafters to other 2x4s that you aren't really supposed to go. However, in Rise of the Tomb Raider, if you jump to something Lara isn't supposed land on dictated by the game, Lara spazzes out and slides off. In Team ICO games, I can actually make jumps better because it's based on physics and I have more control over my character.

My point is that gamers (and critics) have just gotten used of easier but less precise controls and don't have the patience to actually master controls anymore. I think MGS4 vs MGS5 is the perfect example as MGS4 had more precise controls along with more actions you could perform with NO CONTEXTUAL controls whatsoever. And the whole CQC system is so dumbed-down in MGS5. Anyone that has played MGO2 and MGO3 will tell you have much better MGO2 controlled. Here's an exert from Jim Sterling's review of MGS5 that basically proves my point:

For past releases, the clunkiness and obtuse nature of MGS' gameplay has often been forgiven due to how engaging each installment's characters and events are. Here, the situation has been reversed.

 

[Samtemdo8_v1legacy]

I enjoyed playing Resident Evil in its tank controls/fixed camara just fine.

I hate the Controls of Grand Theft Auto 3 on PS2 and I hate Grand Theft Auto 3 in general.

 

[hermes]

The Last Guardian control issues is a combination of animation heavy controls (like Monster Hunter and Demons Souls) with Trico being irresponsive half of the time and behaving like a real life animal. Whether that means controls being frustrating or being something to adapt to, it was certainly intentional...

 

[Bombiz]

there's rather distinct edges.

What do you mean be distinct?

I remember in TLoU having to stick and unstick Joel from the same piece cover numerous times just to get him to shoot over the correct shoulder as he would constantly get on cover with the wrong shoulder.

Couldn't you just move him left or right while I'm cover if you wanted to switch which shoulder you wanted to fire on?

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

The major issue I take with the whole "weighty = realistic" argument is that, personally, these controls feel less natural and more like an initial drunken stumble turned into a run/fast walk.
Natural movement should feel effortless. I don't notice weighty steps when I choose to walk forward unless I've been drinking or are otherwise in a state of abnormal perception. In games, to feel natural I shouldn't need to initially feel awkward in my control set when moving in any direction. I don't want to feel like I'm relearning to walk. That is why "weighted" controls feel awkward or sluggish to me, and perhaps many other people.

I don't know if you've ever worn full combat gear, but my distinct impression from running around in it while in the army was that I was about as graceful and nimble as an obese ocean turtle on land. "Weighty" controls simulate that feeling of being burdened down by all your gear pretty well. That doesn't make them right for all games, obviously, but I think that they are a fine match for military shooters.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

The major issue I take with the whole "weighty = realistic" argument is that, personally, these controls feel less natural and more like an initial drunken stumble turned into a run/fast walk.
Natural movement should feel effortless. I don't notice weighty steps when I choose to walk forward unless I've been drinking or are otherwise in a state of abnormal perception. In games, to feel natural I shouldn't need to initially feel awkward in my control set when moving in any direction. I don't want to feel like I'm relearning to walk. That is why "weighted" controls feel awkward or sluggish to me, and perhaps many other people.

I don't know if you've ever worn full combat gear, but my distinct impression from running around in it while in the army was that I was about as graceful and nimble as an obese ocean turtle on land. "Weighty" controls simulate that feeling of being burdened down by all your gear pretty well. That doesn't make them right for all games, obviously, but I think that they are a fine match for military shooters.

I actually have, as well as played American Football. At first, yes it is a burden but once acclimated to it, I barely felt it. There's a distinct difference between wearing something temporarily and being trained to wear it. Eventually you compensate for the weight and it becomes a second-nature type thing. I can understand control-sets being tailored for a non-combatant putting on full combat gear for the first time and having the Bambi's-first-steps effect. But a trained soldier wearing combat gear day-in/day-out is a different story.
My point being is that the control schemes where you feel like your character is learning to walk for the first time, the "drunken stumble", is not at all realistic unless it really is their first time walking. Or they're relearning to walk after a major injury/coma... (Metal Gear Solid V simulated this really well).

 

[CaitSeith]

"Do gamers not understand what good and bad controls are anymore?"

By seeing so many gamers complain about people criticizing TLG's bad controls, I'd say no, they don't.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

there's rather distinct edges.

What do you mean be distinct?

I remember in TLoU having to stick and unstick Joel from the same piece cover numerous times just to get him to shoot over the correct shoulder as he would constantly get on cover with the wrong shoulder.

Couldn't you just move him left or right while I'm cover if you wanted to switch which shoulder you wanted to fire on?

Anything climbable has rough edges.

I don't recall, but I don't think so and I no longer have to game to verify or not. The point still stands that it takes longer to do what I want/need to do with most modern cover systems, and that is somehow better controls? Naughty Dog controls in general are average at best, the only TPS with camera sensitivity they made is Uncharted 4. That's like releasing a FPS without look speed sensitivity.

My point being is that the control schemes where you feel like your character is learning to walk for the first time, the "drunken stumble", is not at all realistic unless it really is their first time walking. Or they're relearning to walk after a major injury/coma... (Metal Gear Solid V simulated this really well).

The only weightiness in TLG is on jumps really. A boy jumping as far as he can is not going to be able to stick the landing, it's hard for gymnasts to stick landings. The game only has you making one jump at a time. And, the journey is supposed to be a struggle and it's conveyed via animations quite well. Just normal moving around isn't much different than any other game. My main criticism of the controls is actually the BINARY nature of run or slowly stealth walk set to the ANALOG stick when there should at least be a jog or fast walk in-between.

 

[American Fox]

The Swindle has fucking awful controls. I so much wanted to love it.

Never had any trouble with the fixed camera Res Evils, it was so easy to get used to switching direction whenever the angle changed. Res Evil 2 is one of my Top Five Games.

 

[CritialGaming]

Geez, I don't know who is worse: you or CriticalGaming with the "fanboys can't see TLG is objectively a terrible game" argument (on second thought, shaming people for liking a game is definitely worse in my book). At least we can say there are diverse opinions in the forums.

Wow you just gonna call a hommie out like that huh?

Look I never said you shouldn't like TLG or any game in general. I merely stated that there are aspects of TLG that was definitively bad. Controls, camera, etc. Everyone has a tolerance level for jankery in their games, and if someone likes TLG, then gratz to them.

I hate it and I couldn't get through it because I know when controls feel bad, I know when A.I. infuriates me. So in my eyes TLG is shit. Plain and simple.

If you think it's great then awesome. I'm glad you got your money's worth of entertainment out of it.

 

[CaitSeith]

Geez, I don't know who is worse: you or CriticalGaming with the "fanboys can't see TLG is objectively a terrible game" argument (on second thought, shaming people for liking a game is definitely worse in my book). At least we can say there are diverse opinions in the forums.

Wow you just gonna call a hommie out like that huh?

Look I never said you shouldn't like TLG or any game in general. I merely stated that there are aspects of TLG that was definitively bad. Controls, camera, etc. Everyone has a tolerance level for jankery in their games, and if someone likes TLG, then gratz to them.

I hate it and I couldn't get through it because I know when controls feel bad, I know when A.I. infuriates me. So in my eyes TLG is shit. Plain and simple.

If you think it's great then awesome. I'm glad you got your money's worth of entertainment out of it.

Sorry, it wasn't cool of me to talk like that at your back. To tell the truth, I'm glad that you can disagree in a civil manner (even when it rubs me the wrong way).

 

[CritialGaming]

Geez, I don't know who is worse: you or CriticalGaming with the "fanboys can't see TLG is objectively a terrible game" argument (on second thought, shaming people for liking a game is definitely worse in my book). At least we can say there are diverse opinions in the forums.

Wow you just gonna call a hommie out like that huh?

Look I never said you shouldn't like TLG or any game in general. I merely stated that there are aspects of TLG that was definitively bad. Controls, camera, etc. Everyone has a tolerance level for jankery in their games, and if someone likes TLG, then gratz to them.

I hate it and I couldn't get through it because I know when controls feel bad, I know when A.I. infuriates me. So in my eyes TLG is shit. Plain and simple.

If you think it's great then awesome. I'm glad you got your money's worth of entertainment out of it.

Sorry, it wasn't cool of me to talk like that at your back. To tell the truth, I'm glad that you can disagree in a civil manner (even when it rubs me the wrong way).

I've learned that being uncivil is a good way to get banned around here. Sadly....sometimes, so is having an "anti-pc" opinion. I now do my best to express my opinions and not call anyone fuckheads. Sometimes it is hard.




P.S. TLG is terrible though

 

[Silvanus]

Not yet played Last Guardian (though I can't wait; had no issues with ICO's controls, and only a few with Shadow of the Colossus).

Resident Evil tank controls didn't bother me, though. They took some getting used to after playing much smoother games, but eventually they added to its charm. Mastering them was a part of it.

Though the omission of a 180 degree turn command in the first couple of games was criminal.

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

The contextual cover system is definitely easier no doubt; however, those cover systems will get you killed, that's just a fact. Any time a game attempts to predict what you want to do, there's going to be times when it predicts wrong, there's just no way around that.

You say "fact" like it means much in this context. The Sun rising each day is a fact. Man Utd not being at the top of the table right now is a fact. Me sitting here typing away right now is a fact...

"Those cover systems will get you killed" is not a fact. You needed a qualifier of 'sometimes' - but then the exact same thing can be said about input cover systems, ergo the criticism becomes redundant. If you're not keen on this system, fine, but you can't just dismiss it and expect everyone else to share your subjective experience and/or opinion.

Requiring a button to do that removes all those issues. Watch high-level play in any cover shooter like Uncharted or Ghost Recon Future Soldier and you'll see players very sparingly use the cover system.

Having a button also takes up a whole input on a joypad, and those things are a precious commodity. Quite often cover buttons are multi-functional, and those also cause problems. Both have positives [to some], and negatives [to some], and it's also relative to the individual game's design.

For the record, I'm going to say that this is a YMMV thing as well, because I actually fucking love the contextual cover in the Tomb Raider reboot games, and vastly prefer it to the button-snap system in games like Gears of War or Mass Effect 2/3.

Ditto'd. On higher diffs Mass Effect's relatively lethargic system got me killed more than any firefight in the first nu-TR (still not played past the opening hour of Rise).

I loved not having to jab another button to magically unstick Lara from a surface, and together with the aiming system it built one of the very best 3rdP action titles I've played since--- well, ever, really (certainly in terms of movement and response. TR's frustratingly - bordering on ruinously - easy even on the highest diff, and I feel Lara's perks need to be kept as nerfed as possible to make her as vulnerable as possible. same goes with climbing and falling skills).

I'd say contextual systems are harder to get right, but when they work they add so much more to the experience and flow of gameplay (by comparison I think button cover mechanics are mostly just lazy, and are a frustrating mess when implemented carelessly). I remember the cover system in Rainbow Six Vegas was pretty good; there the glued-to-a-wall mechanic helped precise cover peeks, observation/situational awareness, and breach set-ups.

 

[Phoenixmgs_v1legacy]

I hate the Controls of Grand Theft Auto 3 on PS2 and I hate Grand Theft Auto 3 in general.

I remember the lock-on system would just lock-on to the closest person thus it was really hard to actually shoot enemies instead of civilians. Vice City fixed that quite well. Overall, Rockstar games just don't control well even presently.

The Swindle has fucking awful controls. I so much wanted to love it.

That's disappointing as I've watched the Game Maker's Toolkit video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUbyNJKsi7E] about it, sounded like a really interesting game.