Do many Westerners really dislike Japanese games for such shallow reasons as "anime"?

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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LilithSlave said:
I notice there was a thread recently I didn't get to take part in, where users, including the OP were basically making criticisms of Japanese games, for having a lot of manga or anime or whatever you want to call it, designs, and having "gay looking/seeming men". I kid you not. Seems pretty ridiculous, really.

Now, I'll admit to having my own bias in favor of anime designs. It may not have anything to do with gameplay, but I'll admit to really liking it. At least you can interact with it more than an anime figure, unless you're planning to make stop motion video. I've also made a lot of criticisms on a lot of the fixation on macho bodybuilder dudes video games.

But I certainly play a lot of non-anime games, and I think it should be considered pretty normal to play games if they have anime characters. If I only played games with anime characters, which I don't, you'd think me pretty closed minded and superficial, right? Then there's no reason to consider someone who refuses to play games based upon anime designs any less superficial, is there?

Plenty of anime games with guys that aren't macho hunks of muscle have sold plenty well. And to be honest, that seems like a fairly shallow thing to say about Japanese games. That the characters look too gay and anime. I can understand degrees of personal preference, but saying that they should chance, because the West, as a whole, will not tolerate effeminate male characters or manga characters in general, seems ridiculous. It's telling Japanese developers they should do what caters to the West, instead of making the games they want. And is saying that Westerners are shallow and gameplay isn't enough to look past manga designs.

I can understand all the arguments people make related to gameplay. Those are understandable, I respect those complaints. When talking about linearity and choice in jRPGs, there's a real argument to be hard there about things that matter. It may not be true, but it is substance. But this just seems superficial, incredibly superficial and unproductive.

And if the West does not want to look past androgyny or anime aesthetics, well then I think that's sad for us and I'm disappointed in us. And that Japanese developers should ignore the Western audiences that will refuse to play as such characters. They'd be better of pleasing the Japanese market that is happy to play as an anime character. And won't shallowly refuse a game because it has manga designs.

You can talk about linearity and overused storylines and things like that all you want. Japan certainly has room to grow and innovate as an industry where it is not. This, on the other hand, is meaningless, and should not change at all. If you refuse to play a game because of manga aesthetics, you're being as shallow about video games as it is possible to be, and Japanese developers do not need to cater to you. Again, how would you react to someone if they said they wouldn't play a game because it "wasn't anime enough"?

As long as it doesn't become another "World War II" thread like the other one, opening a thread like this should be okay, right? I hope I'm not going to get in trouble with the mods for this, I certainly mean no trouble.
You have to understand a few things about the situation. An anime fan usually looks beyond the failings of the medium for whatever reason, and thus intentionally blinds themselves to how other people quite rightfully see things.

One of the first thing to understand is that Anime is quite bluntly cheaply produced sh@t, I mean there is no way around that. The guys producing the anime themselves are usually quite blunt about it, and how it's popular because actual live films (even cheap ones) are more expensive, and how when they are looking to produce 26 episode anime seasons they usually have a limited budget and producing that much stuff means they have to cut pretty much every corner they can. There ARE exceptions, anime films, and a few shows that had unusually high production budgets, but to be honest the sheer cheapness of the products does stand out.

When it comes to the writing, there are also a lot of criticisms to be made. See, Japan really has very little culture of it's own anymore (which is another whole discussion). With rare exception just about everything Japan does is borrowed from somewhere else, and even the "traditional" elements of the culture have in many cases been re-invented based on romantic foreign interpetations. For example the version of Ninjas and Samurai most of us know are largely based off of Western versions of both of those things that lead to the pop culture appealing to The Japanese and then winding up being inserted into some of the histories. Remember for example that the Japanese pretty much slaughtered the entire Samurai aristocricy for being a bunch of oppressive douchebags, all of thise "we worship our honorable Samurai forefathers" stuff is kind of insane when you look at the actual facts.

I was reading some stuff through the years about how Western pop culture pretty much defined Japan, and how for example Westerns pretty much birthed the entire Samurai film genere and even changed perceptions of the Samurai and how they were presented in history. Not to mention "Ninjas" which are even worse, given that they were hated in Japan until Americans who didn't really "get it" ran with the idea as a group of anti-heroes, Japan liked this version and next thing you knew you had Ninjas popping up everywhere and carrying their own TV series. Things like "Naruto" more or less being born of the "new idea" which is why it's such a joke when you think about what a Ninja was, it doesn't fit the truth, but the concept does work with the mystical anti-hero mercenary.

The point of all of this is that if you read some things, or listen to interviews, you hear about how Anime was largely inspired by US geek culture and science fiction. Lodoss Wars was directly cribbed from D&D and it's stereotypes (and I believe I saw an interview explaining that on one of the tapes I had) for example, and a lot of the stuff you see in science fiction anime accross the board was stuff taken directly from sci-fi novels and other
western creations.

Part of the appeal of Anime has largely been that it's generally been less obsessed with political correctness and social niceties, not skimping on the sex and violence in telling stories. It's also generally been one step ahead of western pop culture in terms of concepts. Basically you had anime working with concepts like killer memes, nanotechnology, man-machine interfaces, and everything else before they hit the mainstream visual medium. To run into something like that as an idea you pretty much had to read a book. Thus just being able to see someone do it visually was cool, and for those who didn't read the concepts probably seemed a lot deeper and more novel than they actually were.

To a lot of the mainstream however looking at Anime they see a low budget production, and concepts that either seem like banal retreads, or are simply not going to appeal to them until they see it presented in a more tradionally mainstream manner in a way that doesn't take 6-13 hours to get through.

The problems with the art style have less to do with androgynous characters and other things that fans like to insert to try and present something as being wrong with the critics (well left wing fans do at any rate), so much as it's oftentimes transparent that the stylization exists to try and hide cheap production. There IS an art to it, but again I've read enough stuff about the amount of material they need to produce within a certain budget and time frame, and a lot of the artists themselves say that the characters look very similar (if not identical except for some feature changes) because starting from set models allows them to produce faster. A base model that anyone on the team can draw and modify allows everyone to produce more or less seamlessly, which is important when you might have a whole team of artists working to produce crazy amounts of material, whether by hand or on a computer.

Now, before anyone goes off on me, I will say I DO like Anime, I'm not as into it as I once was, as I simply feel that a lot of the current stuff is pure drek for reasons I won't go into. I'm one of those guys who could honestly tell you they were into it "before it was cool" and still follows it to a degree (if not like before) even though it's slipping and you just don't see it being carried like you used to. It largely comes down to the exact concepts being used, and to an extent how well funded it is. Over time, as I became more used to it and aware of the stereotypes, and learned more about it, I was actually able to de-geek my perceptions a bit which is why I can convey all of this. I'm still a bit of a fan, but also a very honest one who likes it in spite of it's flaws. I can't really blame anyone for NOT liking it because in many cases it's like say dragging up a high-concept Sci-Fi film from the 50s or 60s, a certain kind of person an appreciate that, but you can easily see why your typical person isn't going to since a lot of that stuff just doesn't age well, and not everyone can appreciate schlock/cheeze for what it is. :)
 

Kahunaburger

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Hammeroj said:
I don't know about many, but I fuckin' despise their character designs (at least as far as humans are concerned). It's one of the few reasons I'm not looking all that forward to Guild Wars 2, and I'm not even remotely joking.


Go straight to 1:21 for a truly rage inducing moment.
The fact that a kinda feminine-looking dude in a sea of manly men is a facial option is a reason for you to dislike GW2?
 

subtlefuge

Lord Cromulent
May 21, 2010
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LilithSlave said:
This topic is in response to a topic that got locked recently.
So the first thing you thought after seeing a thread that the moderators had to lock was that you needed to make a thread insulting and calling out people from that thread? I'll never understand some people...

I don't dislike Japanese games for the anime art style. I dislike them for the shallow anime conventions that you have to tolerate. I dislike them for their shallow anime characterization. I dislike them for their shallow plot structures, and their shallow game mechanics that have the benefit of never changing or improving over the past 25 years.

Mostly, I dislike Japanese games because they are not all the Persona series, and even those are not fun to play.
 

Tony2077

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i don't mind if people don't like them just it'd be nice if they choose a better reason then i don't like these games so they must be shit or whatever word they decide to use
 

Danzaivar

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It goes both ways you know. Can't remember where I read it but apparently Mass Effect 2, which was huge in the West, only sold a few thousand copies in Japan. Because it's about adult soldiers fighting other adult soldiers with not much appeal to the Japanese market.

When I was younger I loved anime and jrpg's and all that stuff. But nowadays they just all feel the same, generic pretty teenagers learning about the power of friendship to save the world/universe/existence. Now whether that's because Japanese games haven't really upped the ante in gameplay and seem to focus more and more on spectacular cutscenes/backdrops rather than the gameplay, or because western games have just improved on gameplay to a point where they're more fun, or if they just feel more relatable, it's pretty hard to pin down what causes it.

That said, even now I can still boot up Final Fantasy 9 and it's a joy to play from start to finish. So who knows?
 

dvd_72

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Daystar Clarion said:
Weeaboos will cause the Great Bear Rebellions.

It's understandable why people wouldn't like Japanese aesthetic.
Indeed. Listen to this man. The last Weeaboo thread here was the first display of the Bear Uprisings!
 

Kahunaburger

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Therumancer said:
Remember for example that the Japanese pretty much slaughtered the entire Samurai aristocricy for being a bunch of oppressive douchebags, all of thise "we worship our honorable Samurai forefathers" stuff is kind of insane when you look at the actual facts.
See also: most fantasies in a pseudo medieval setting anywhere. Hardly unique to Japan.

Therumancer said:
I was reading some stuff through the years about how Western pop culture pretty much defined Japan, and how for example Westerns the westerns of John Ford pretty much birthed inspired the entire Samurai film genere Yojimbo and even changed perceptions of the Samurai and how they were presented in history. which in turn was highly influential in the Western and Samurai genres, alongside Akira Kurosawa's other films.
Fixed.
 

Kahunaburger

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Hammeroj said:
Kahunaburger said:
Hammeroj said:
I don't know about many, but I fuckin' despise their character designs (at least as far as humans are concerned). It's one of the few reasons I'm not looking all that forward to Guild Wars 2, and I'm not even remotely joking.


Go straight to 1:21 for a truly rage inducing moment.
The fact that a kinda feminine-looking dude in a sea of manly men is a facial option is a reason for you to dislike GW2?
I didn't say I dislike GW2, merely that I'm not seriously hyped about it. That aside, is "fuckin' despise" not strong enough an expression?
To rephrase my question, what about a diverse array of faces annoys you?
 

Kahunaburger

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Hammeroj said:
Kahunaburger said:
To rephrase my question, what about a diverse array of faces annoys you?
The fact that this absurdity is even an option. The inevitability of meeting people who seriously prefer this aesthetic. It's not like the moment I get out of character creation I will no longer be subjected to it.
But aren't there similarly kinda feminine-looking dudes IRL, and aren't most civilized societies okay with that?
 

Akkiko

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Dec 14, 2009
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I honestly think the main problem is that Western culture has a very different concept of a "main hero" as opposed to the Japanese. While North America is routinely exposed to a physically fit male with a trim haircut, the Japanese tend to prefer a young adult who tends to look somewhat androgynous. And, given our vastly different appearances, it's not hard to imagine why this might be.

It also doesn't help that the biggest hyped games are Final Fantasy, Tales of and Persona. All of which feature young teenagers/adults and their coming-of-age tales. So naturally a lot of the naysayers' opinions are going to start sounding a bit alike when they state their criticisms of JRPGs. Things like "the heroes are too girly looking," "I hate the way the characters interact," "the plot is so damn boring" are all valid opinions for why you might not like a game, but it should also be said that not all games are the same just from a handful in the barrel. That's like saying all games in North America are CoD wannabes. (Or is it Halo wannabes? Eh, to-may-toe toe-mah-toe.)

My proof is that DMC, Bayonetta and MGS don't tend to get half as much flak as those three main series titles seem to. (I ignore DMC5. If you mention it, I will resolutely plug my fingers into my ears and hum a merry tune.)

Is disliking a game on appearance alone shallow? Yes. Is it wrong? Not particularly. An opinion is just that and has the right to exist for every single individual so long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of another human being.

I for one can't be bothered to look s at 89% of games produces by Western companies because to me they sound like the generic toothpaste you'd find at the bottom of a bargain bin.
 

Kahunaburger

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SmashLovesTitanQuest said:
They are both ridiculous. Ones got this fucking crazy haircut with a massive sword and thin arms while the other is.... Well, its Testosterone of War. Nuff said.

My 2 cents? I cant stand either style. As far as body sizes and stuff go, I like the humans in my video games to look like someone I could see walking down the street. None of this hyper feminine/hyper masculine stuff for me.
100% agree with the bolded text. And the stupid haircut + sword. But in terms of build (but not facial features in many cases), it seems to me like you could make a pretty good case that your standard animu male only looks feminine next to Marcus Fenix, Kratos, etc.
 

Agayek

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Oct 23, 2008
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Kahunaburger said:
Therumancer said:
Remember for example that the Japanese pretty much slaughtered the entire Samurai aristocricy for being a bunch of oppressive douchebags, all of thise "we worship our honorable Samurai forefathers" stuff is kind of insane when you look at the actual facts.
See also: most fantasies in a pseudo medieval setting anywhere. Hardly unique to Japan.
To be entirely fair, the vast majority of Western medieval fantasy portrays the aristocracy as colossal dicks and/or oppressive fuckwads.

There's not a whole lot of respect for them going around, while from what I understand the Japanese have come to romanticize Samurai and the daimyo, to the point where there's actual cultural nostalgia for pre-Meiji style government.
 

Chairman Miaow

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Nov 18, 2009
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Daystar Clarion said:
Weeaboos will cause the Great Bear Rebellions.

It's understandable why people wouldn't like Japanese aesthetic.
What is it with you and bears today? And I thought it was established they would only catch otaku or something...