Do members of the military get too much respect? What profession do you respect the most?

[Volkov]

Well, I wasn't saying that it did have a positive effect, only that convincing sounding arguments have been made that it does by people in favour of the military.

Not being a political, economic or military expert, I can't really say one way or the other, only that such arguments exist.

I would say, though, that the people who count themselves experts in such things who make the arguments, who condemn the Democrats and all who vote for them as idiots or traitors, tend to completely overlook any issues about gay rights, racism, sexism and the like.

National security is all well and good, but there are other securities people should be worried about.

I wouldn't call any of those arguments convincing, honestly, but I see what you are saying. And yeah, I think I agree with your conclusion even if not with the specifics of what lead up to it.

 

[rekabdarb]

My personal "hero" profession... are the sewer people. People who have to maintain sewage.

I mean sweet jesus.

My shit can be disgusting sometimes.

 

[Volkov]

I really can't find a source that shows common statistics for misfire vs. proper fire, I only have what I experienced which is, as anything original research and not really reliable in a statistical discussion.

I'd also like a source that states that there is no QA in the manufacturers' process lines. Cause a friend of mine designed a couple of those, and according to him, QA was about half of it (and in some cases more).

 

[Xin Baixiang]

I really can't find a source that shows common statistics for misfire vs. proper fire, I only have what I experienced which is, as anything original research and not really reliable in a statistical discussion.

I'd also like a source that states that there is no QA in the manufacturers' process lines. Cause a friend of mine designed a couple of those, and according to him, QA was about half of it (and in some cases more).

Right, I'm going to let you simply "win" this one by killing the joke and stating that what I said was intended to be hyperbole, and not taken quite to the literal degree you have taken it to.

 

[Volkov]

Right, I'm going to let you simply "win" this one by killing the joke and stating that what I said was intended to be hyperbole, and not taken quite to the literal degree you have taken it to.

Dude, I am sorry, but without hearing the tone of voice, or seeing any smilies, it's very difficult (or at least it was for me) to recognize that the statement that the contractors don't QA was intended to be a joke. Maybe it's just me, but considering that this is the internet - it was ENTIRELY possible that you were serious and just badly misinformed.

 

[Houshou]

You have some credence in what you say. That there are civilian jobs out there, who deserve more respect than what they actually get. But to compare it to the military was the wrong way to go about doing it.
First of all, even if you meant no disrespect to those who choose to wear the uniform, you still imply a level of disrespect to those people for even bringing it up. No matter the country, no matter the position held during their time in the military. I highly recommend that such words be kept to yourself.
See what I mean? I offered sound advice, but in the wrong context this could be taken as a threat as well. No where did I mention anything about a threat, but it is easily implied. Its the same when doing a comparison on this level.

Put it this way, people in the military are on call 24 hours a day. Even if they take vacation time, in the event of an emergency they must pack up and go back as fast as possible. Furthermore, it is completely possible for a military individual to work a full 24 hour shift. Get 8 hours of rest, rinse and repeat until it is no longer necessary. While this is an extreme case, it is not uncommon for a military member to work over 12 hours a day, 6-7 days a week. and regardless of how much extra time they put in at work, they still get the same pay. This is all in addition to doing their part of defending their country, with their life at stake.

When compared to the military, sure a Doctor could potentially save lives. But their life is technically never in danger itself. So while they do what they can to keep your loved ones with you, it's not like they might have to die themselves just to do that.

The second point I'd like to make is that just by mentioning the military and alluding to dishonoring it, you get all the right-wing patriotic butt-tards to come crawling out of the walls and chew your head off for merely speaking your mind. Which is something you have the right to do, but again it's not a very wise decision to be making.

You have every right, depending on your country, to say whatever it is that you feel like saying. Just remember when there was a time you would be hanged or burnt at the stake for saying or doing things that were deemed "against the leadership" or "Unnatural". While thankfully we don't live in a world like that anymore, its still something that you should practice. Because its all for The Greater Good.

 

[Trenten Meyer]

That man was a coward - myself and every Marine I know agree. He took an oath that he then reneged on because he didn't want to go and then he dared to use morality to justify it. For your information, there are laws allowing a soldier - sometimes compelling him - to disobey an unlawful order from a superior officer. Refusing to deploy is not one of them.

Pff. Who needs a moral compass when you have direct orders?
"You do as you are told, soldier! We talked about that 'using your brain' issue."

Seriously, from reading this thread I was starting to think that the army-men weren't brainless bots, then you came along. Good show.

Did...did you read the second part of the paragraph you quoted? I received all sorts of training explicitly telling me that I was OBLIGATED to say, "No sir, I will not shoot that child to win you a 20 dollar bet. I'm sorry, but I think maybe we should go talk to the commander about your needing some decompression time." We do actually think. We use the grey matter for all sorts of reasons, and it takes a pretty disturbing misreading of the text, again, you quoted to see something else.

Sure, that extreme example of the child is all well and good, but to call a man a coward for not going into a fight he does not believe in is incredibly foolish. Going into a fight you do not believe in because some nutter in a uniform says you have to is equally foolish.

Not killing a child for 20 bucks and not going into a battle you think is wrong are both situations where you make up your own damn mind. Repressing one but upholding the other is just as brainless as repressing both.

So, are you telling me you have never done anything that compromised your morals? because, sir, if you honestly havent, you are the messiah. Not to mention the fact that that "nutter" has, depending on his rank, anywhere between oh, since he is able to order you to war, 1000 to 10,000 lives, only military mind you, to think about at least. And he isn't saying war isn't reprehensible, but that it isn't his place to disobey the commander, unless what the commander wants you to do is illegal in any way. When a soldier signs up, he swears that he will obey ALL of his commanders. He literally gives up the right not to. Also, as a "military brat" as we're called, I can tell you that no one goes to war because they want to. I mentioned before, there was what was effectively a small city devoted to making sure the people who were brave enough to do what they new was a very real possibility, didn't die because of it.

but i never got around to stating who, besides the military, needs respect the families, especially us "brats". its hard to go to school when the parents of twenty of you classmates were KIA. that semester.

 

[Xin Baixiang]

Right, I'm going to let you simply "win" this one by killing the joke and stating that what I said was intended to be hyperbole, and not taken quite to the literal degree you have taken it to.

Dude, I am sorry, but without hearing the tone of voice, or seeing any smilies, it's very difficult (or at least it was for me) to recognize that the statement that the contractors don't QA was intended to be a joke. Maybe it's just me, but considering that this is the internet - it was ENTIRELY possible that you were serious and just badly misinformed.

Nope, just jaded. I spent several years in various desert environments wearing gear that fit poorly because of my shoulder width dealing with jams to other people's rifles because I was actually good at clearing them when it happened. I, for any future reference, very rarely take anything seriously. I'm happy to be alive, and life is fatal when taken seriously.

 

[Volkov]

Nope, just jaded. I spent several years in various desert environments wearing gear that fit poorly because of my shoulder width dealing with jams to other people's rifles because I was actually good at clearing them when it happened. I, for any future reference, very rarely take anything seriously. I'm happy to be alive, and life is fatal when taken seriously.

OK, maybe this is clash of cultures again, but I still don't see how being jaded/seeing some shit somehow translates to saying statistical statements that are bullshit, and expecting people to recognize that you aren't serious.

Probably not worth discussing it though at this point, I think we finally understood each other.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Military? Not much education required in and of itself. Certain positions, but the respect people give doesn't seem to depend on that. How much good it does? Right now I'm not seeing much at all. Might help a bit, but the helping seems to be mostly fixing things that they broke in the first place.

Do you know the proper way of constructing a foxhole in stage? Best procedure for surviving a nuclear blast? Look up all the US field manuals they have online, there's quite a bit of information there.

Likewise, I don't know about the US military so much, but what about the military's role in East Timor? The Solomon Islands? Disaster relief in Haiti?

 

[Trenten Meyer]

They definitely get too much respect.

I think respect for a profession should be based on a few things.
How much education it takes. How much good it actually does for others.

Military? Not much education required in and of itself. Certain positions, but the respect people give doesn't seem to depend on that. How much good it does? Right now I'm not seeing much at all. Might help a bit, but the helping seems to be mostly fixing things that they broke in the first place.

Risking lives? Not worth anything to me unless it's actually doing good. Intentions aren't good enough.

Protecting our country? Don't make me laugh, not much of that going on right now. Find me a necessary war and then I might have some respect.

People who risk their lives for reasons I find unnecessary will at best get no change in respect from me, and at worst make me lose respect for them.

Then there's the fact I'm not sure I find the current wars particularly moral. Signing up and following orders to support something immoral loses points in my view. Idgaf if they agree with the war, they're following orders and put themselves in a position to need to be following orders.

Do you know the requirements to command a platoon? to be an officer of any rank requires a four year degree. All the ranks require education, but they give it to you AFTER they've signed up.

 

[Xin Baixiang]

Nope, just jaded. I spent several years in various desert environments wearing gear that fit poorly because of my shoulder width dealing with jams to other people's rifles because I was actually good at clearing them when it happened. I, for any future reference, very rarely take anything seriously. I'm happy to be alive, and life is fatal when taken seriously.

OK, maybe this is clash of cultures again, but I still don't see how being jaded/seeing some shit somehow translates to saying statistical statements that are bullshit, and expecting people to recognize that you aren't serious.

Probably not worth discussing it though at this point, I think we finally understood each other.

It's more with the tune of the rest of the statements leading up to mine. The guns being owned instead of rented, etc. The statistical statement that you see, from my perspective, is just a "build on" joke about common perception taken to the wacky extreme. The jaded aspect of my personality means that I don't take things seriously as a defense mechanism. I've seen some shit, it's either laugh at life and crack jokes or cry and end up in the bottom of a bottle, I take the joke route.

 

[khy]

Yeah, I would say every position in the military requires a certain amount of education and training, and if you don't have it when you sign up the military will provide it. I know soldiers who work on computers (we call them information systems in the Army... =/), who dropped out of high school, got their GED in the Army and now have more certifications for networks and OS's than any geek squad member I've ever seen. That's the same from Infantry (and if you don't believe an infantryman is smart look over the EIB requirements and how many weapons systems they have to be proficient in), to cooks (health and food standards and sanitation) to finance soldiers (the accountants of the Army).

I think you're confusing education with intelligence. Yeah, there are some dumb folks in the army, but I've met some dumb Ph.D.s too. Over-generalizing like you're doing isn't the mark of an educated individual...

 

[Gaiseric]

I'd say no mainly from what I've heard from my buddy in the Army and my family who served. My dad especially got all kinds of hell when he came home(he was in the Navy in Vietnam). He got the whole "baby killer" and spit on routine when was walking down the street after pulling into port. My grandfathers didn't get much either(one was in the Army during WW2 and the other was in the Marines during Korea). And aside from the occasional drink bought for my buddy in a bar he's gotten some guff as well and he hasn't even shipped out yet.

I respect most professions somewhat equally(police, doctors, soldiers, firemen, astronauts, scientists, and some others I respect a bit more). Doesn't matter if it is the construction worker on the side of the street, the middle management office type, or the fast food cashier. You take care of your business and you get my respect.

 

[Thaluikhain]

What about those? Some minor things. What, are you trying to paint that as the majority of what the military does? And for things like disaster relief there are organizations that help. I do not see people falling down to lick their boots.

I'm not speaking of "the" military, I'm talking about the military of my nation, which sent more than 3 times as many troops to East Timor as it did to Afghanistan. That's a clear majority.

 

[Trenten Meyer]

They definitely get too much respect.

I think respect for a profession should be based on a few things.
How much education it takes. How much good it actually does for others.

Military? Not much education required in and of itself. Certain positions, but the respect people give doesn't seem to depend on that. How much good it does? Right now I'm not seeing much at all. Might help a bit, but the helping seems to be mostly fixing things that they broke in the first place.

Risking lives? Not worth anything to me unless it's actually doing good. Intentions aren't good enough.

Protecting our country? Don't make me laugh, not much of that going on right now. Find me a necessary war and then I might have some respect.

People who risk their lives for reasons I find unnecessary will at best get no change in respect from me, and at worst make me lose respect for them.

Then there's the fact I'm not sure I find the current wars particularly moral. Signing up and following orders to support something immoral loses points in my view. Idgaf if they agree with the war, they're following orders and put themselves in a position to need to be following orders.

Do you know the requirements to command a platoon? to be an officer of any rank requires a four year degree. All the ranks require education, but they give it to you AFTER they've signed up.

Do you know how to fully read a post before replying to it? I said certain positions need it, sure. Every last person? No.

Im not going to argue with you after this post. It will take up too much of my energy, and you obviously wont change your beliefs.
If education is a requirement for respect, then garsh darn it, the farmer who never went to college doesn't get it, nor the tile layer who went out of his way to make sure me and my father got to the town several miles away after our car broke down literal in the middle of nowhere either. Also, education or no, are YOU willing to risk your life to TRY to do good, even if there was no guarantee that it would work? But Im just prejudicial, I think that anybody willing to die for others deserve respect, no matter how little, because of it. (at least thats what i told my friend after her father died *overly sarcastic wink*)