Do you consider Fate/Stay Night UBW censored porn?

Deathmageddon

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Does the original Fate/Stay Night visual novel undermine the artistic value of the Fate franchise? Are the adaptations, prequels and spinoffs heavily censored porn or do they exist independently of the VN? Is Saber primarily a porn character or was the adult content in the VN a mistake? Should the adult content be considered canon in the latter case?

I know that a lot of really "good" anime like Kanon are adapted from eroge, so naturally any answer would apply to them, too. If nothing else, I'm a consistent prude. :)
 

[Kira Must Die]

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I haven't read the visual novel, so I can't say how relevant the sex scenes are in there, but watching the anime, you never really get the impression that there was suppose to be sex scenes. It never really feels censored nor does it really feel like it's missing chunks of story. The story seems intact, although I'm sure VN purists would say otherwise.
 

VanQ

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[Kira Must Die said:
]I haven't read the visual novel, so I can't say how relevant the sex scenes are in there, but watching the anime, you never really get the impression that there was suppose to be sex scenes. It never really feels censored nor does it really feel like it's missing chunks of story. The story seems intact, although I'm sure VN purists would say otherwise.
Nah. The main reason for sex in the VNs is for mana transfer. Because of Shiro being a bad mage he can't supply Saber with mana like normal and so he has to do so physically. The explanation behind it if I recall is that the more intimate, the more efficient the mana transfer. So while a kiss will transfer some, full on sex is the best way.

In fact, Shinji uses a Command Spell in the VN to force Rider to have sex with him, despite his ability to transfer mana normally and despite it being against her will and it buffs her power quite significantly. (I can't wait for that Izanagi guy's thread on the matter if they reveal that in the anime)

Anyway, as for OP's question. Nah, it's not censored porn. The anime and the VN are seperate entities as far as I see it. The VN's sex scenes were there but besides the mana transfer stuff it was unimportant. Honestly, I think the story is better without them. Looking at how Fate/Zero handled itself I honestly think the Fate stuff is better when detached from the original VN which was written by a rookie.
 

Entitled

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Deathmageddon said:
Does the original Fate/Stay Night visual novel undermine the artistic value of the Fate franchise? Are the adaptations, prequels and spinoffs heavily censored porn or do they exist independently of the VN? Is Saber primarily a porn character or was the adult content in the VN a mistake? Should the adult content be considered canon in the latter case?
You are not asking mutually exclusive questions.

No, the F/SN VN being porn doesn't undermine the value of the franchise, and yes, the adaptations are censored porn. Yes, Saber is a porn character, and yes, the adult content in the VN is a mistake, and yes, it should be considered canon (for as little as the concept of "canon" is worth anyways).

Having a handful of scenes in a work that's tone you kind of dislike, doesn't have to put the whole work's treatment in an entirely new frame of reference.

People usually assume that "porn" and "art" are contradictory, because s they are commnly produced in the modern western tradition, all artistic works intended to be commercially viable have to restrain themselves from certain specific scenes, such as on-screen penetration and ejaculation, so any film that does have those, is assumed to be waiving it's intention to be art, and any that refrains from showing them is assumed to be art, even if it has it's own sex scenes.

If the Japanese PC gaming industry happened to find an audience where viabe mainstream stories can afford to show these things too, then we can either call those works "porn" and conclude that in the Japanese pop-cultural tradition, porn and art arenn't that contradictory, or we can say that "porn" is only a label for works that lack artistic value, therefore F/SN is not porn by definition.

But in either case, simply saying that F/SN can't have artistic value because is porn, is misapplying western labels to Japanese media aesthetics.
 

VectorSlip

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I want you to go play Katawa shoujo. No seriously go play it right now http://www.katawa-shoujo.com/

A VN having sex scenes does not undermine its artistic value at all. Sometimes it can even enhance it. And the sex scenes in the original VN stem from special circumstances involving shiro as VanQ so eloquently pointed out above me. Either way the Fate series isn't censored porn because it works just fine without it and the series is fully able to exist free of its racier elements without losing much, if anything at all, in translation. Adult content doesn't inherently undermine characters nor does it have to define them. Even if the sex scenes were to make it into the anime proper it still wouldn't make Saber a porn character. Again I point you to Katawa Shoujo to make my point.

You judge a series or VN or anime by its merits and on its own terms. You look at the whole of a work to determine its artistic value, not just one part.
 

[Kira Must Die]

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VanQ said:
[Kira Must Die said:
]I haven't read the visual novel, so I can't say how relevant the sex scenes are in there, but watching the anime, you never really get the impression that there was suppose to be sex scenes. It never really feels censored nor does it really feel like it's missing chunks of story. The story seems intact, although I'm sure VN purists would say otherwise.
Nah. The main reason for sex in the VNs is for mana transfer. Because of Shiro being a bad mage he can't supply Saber with mana like normal and so he has to do so physically. The explanation behind it if I recall is that the more intimate, the more efficient the mana transfer. So while a kiss will transfer some, full on sex is the best way.

In fact, Shinji uses a Command Spell in the VN to force Rider to have sex with him, despite his ability to transfer mana normally and despite it being against her will and it buffs her power quite significantly. (I can't wait for that Izanagi guy's thread on the matter if they reveal that in the anime)
I knew that much, I just wasn't sure if the H-scenes added anything more than that, as none of the adaptations seem to suggest that such scenes even exist.

And Shinji's a fucker, confirmed.
 

Funyahns

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If you play Fate Stay Night for the porn you are in for a bad time. It takes around 50 hours to beat the game, there is probably 10-15 minutes of porn stuff in it. There is a ton of action and fighting and a little slice of life type stuff. I would consider the way mana transferred through sex to be canon, because in each of the three arcs the person he slept with he fell in love with.

Thankfully though you can turn the H-scenes off in some of the newer releases. They are pretty bland anyways and it kind of takes away from how interesting the story is.
 

Erttheking

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[Kira Must Die said:
]I haven't read the visual novel, so I can't say how relevant the sex scenes are in there, but watching the anime, you never really get the impression that there was suppose to be sex scenes. It never really feels censored nor does it really feel like it's missing chunks of story. The story seems intact, although I'm sure VN purists would say otherwise.
Well the original visual novel was in fact an classified as an eroge...feel free to draw whatever conclusion you want with that information.
 

Scorpid

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NOT being a fan of VN's and not being a fan of Fate Stay night I will say that my understanding is that Saber was suppose to be Joan of Arc and one aspect of Joan of Arc is that for religious reasons she remained a virgin so it would seem to me that any sex scene involving Saber would undermine her character. Also since this a VN its probably not porn as much as fan service which modern popular anime has a blight of atm. So for me yes it does.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Deathmageddon said:
Does the original Fate/Stay Night visual novel undermine the artistic value of the Fate franchise? Are the adaptations, prequels and spinoffs heavily censored porn or do they exist independently of the VN? Is Saber primarily a porn character or was the adult content in the VN a mistake? Should the adult content be considered canon in the latter case?

I know that a lot of really "good" anime like Kanon are adapted from eroge, so naturally any answer would apply to them, too. If nothing else, I'm a consistent prude. :)
First of all, sex scenes do not undermine the artistic value of anything. The quality of the writing or artwork is the only thing that matters. Plenty of high art involves sex, after all.

Secondly, I personally find he "replacement" scenes in both the anime and UBW movie to be kind of silly. Flying dolphin hallucinations? They are particularly silly since they work so hard to frame the sex scenes only to not do them.

If they wanted to make the anime and movie PG-13, they could have just "faded to black" and implied sex. Replacing it entirely is just silly and undermines the original artistic expression of the piece.

Edit:
Quoted for Truth:
VectorSlip said:
I want you to go play Katawa shoujo. No seriously go play it right now http://www.katawa-shoujo.com/

A VN having sex scenes does not undermine its artistic value at all. Sometimes it can even enhance it.
and

Funyahns said:
If you play Fate Stay Night for the porn you are in for a bad time. It takes around 50 hours to beat the game, there is probably 10-15 minutes of porn stuff in it.
I'd say 15 minutes is a generous estimate. I guess Heaven's Feel might push it up to that.

Edit 2:

[Kira Must Die said:
]I haven't read the visual novel, so I can't say how relevant the sex scenes are in there, but watching the anime, you never really get the impression that there was suppose to be sex scenes.
Remember when Rin kisses Saber for no reason? And then makes Shiro take off his shirt, also for no reason? And then there were dolphin and shark hallucinations? That was a sex scene.
 

Bara_no_Hime

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Scorpid said:
NOT being a fan of VN's and not being a fan of Fate Stay night I will say that my understanding is that Saber was suppose to be Joan of Arc and one aspect of Joan of Arc is that for religious reasons she remained a virgin so it would seem to me that any sex scene involving Saber would undermine her character. Also since this a VN its probably not porn as much as fan service which modern popular anime has a blight of atm. So for me yes it does.
Actually, Saber is NOT Jeanne d'Arc - she's King Arthur. Turns out that King Arthur was actually female (hence why "he" had so much trouble having children with "his" wife).

Jeanne d'Arc appear in one of the spin-offs, I believe.

Oh, and um "spoiler alert" - little late, I know, but I think the internet beat me to it.

Edit: OH! You may have been confused because the Tactical RPG "Jeanne d'Arc" ripped off its design for Jeanne d'Arc from Saber. So there are pictures of Jeanne d'Arc (from the game of the same name) that look an awful lot like pictures of Saber.

Edit 2: Yes, I'm aware that she gets briefly mistaken for Jeanne in Fate Zero. But since that gets cleared up IN that anime, I didn't think it was relevant.
 

Ryan Hughes

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Uh honestly, I am only vaguely aware of what you are talking about, but there are a few things to consider:

1) The narrative that sexual content is censored nowadays is usually flatly wrong. For the most part, sexual content is added in order to simply add monetary value to the work in question. The work began as a visual novel, yes, but those are rarely products of vision, rather they exist as products of the financial pressures artists face. That is to say: this current animation is actually more likely to represent the artist's vision than a visual novel.

2) In the end, text can only be seen as text, and contextual considerations remain just that -outside of the work itself. So, it really does not matter in the end what the artist's intention was, what matters is the ability of the artist to communicate that intention. Really, most TV, in the States as well as Japan, have their content altered by the stations that air them. Sometimes to fit the basic form of the medium, such as run-time, sometimes for content. Political and philosophical content tends to be a much larger issue in the visual media now, as violence and sexual content have become ubiquitous due to their perceived monetary value -real or not.

I did watch Garden of Sinners, and assuming that is from the same people as this show, then it may be safe to argue that they never really intended for any major sexual content to be present in the first place. If we wish to make arguments at all about intent.
 

Entitled

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Scorpid said:
Also since this a VN its probably not porn as much as fan service which modern popular anime has a blight of atm.
Actually, VNs *are* known for containing scenes of hardcore pornography, while they rarely contain "fanservice" such as panty shots and etc.
 

VanQ

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Bara_no_Hime said:
Scorpid said:
NOT being a fan of VN's and not being a fan of Fate Stay night I will say that my understanding is that Saber was suppose to be Joan of Arc and one aspect of Joan of Arc is that for religious reasons she remained a virgin so it would seem to me that any sex scene involving Saber would undermine her character. Also since this a VN its probably not porn as much as fan service which modern popular anime has a blight of atm. So for me yes it does.
Actually, Saber is NOT Jeanne d'Arc - she's King Arthur. Turns out that King Arthur was actually female (hence why "he" had so much trouble having children with "his" wife).

Jeanne d'Arc appear in one of the spin-offs, I believe.

Oh, and um "spoiler alert" - little late, I know, but I think the internet beat me to it.

Edit: OH! You may have been confused because the Tactical RPG "Jeanne d'Arc" ripped off its design for Jeanne d'Arc from Saber. So there are pictures of Jeanne d'Arc (from the game of the same name) that look an awful lot like pictures of Saber.
That or he could have watched Fate/Zero. Caster from Fate/Zero mistakes Saber for his love Jeanne d'Arc because of how much they look alike.

EDIT: And yeah, at this point, I think the OP really should put a spoiler warning in the thread title since in order to address his and other posts in the thread some of us have had to drop minor and major spoilers.
 

[Kira Must Die]

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Bara_no_Hime said:
Remember when Rin kisses Saber for no reason? And then makes Shiro take off his shirt, also for no reason? And then there were dolphin and shark hallucinations? That was a sex scene.
I don't remember that, actually (but it sounds hilarious). Just goes to show how forgettable the studio Deen adaptations were. The ufotable adaptations are much. MUCH better.
 

VanQ

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Bara_no_Hime said:
[Kira Must Die said:
]I haven't read the visual novel, so I can't say how relevant the sex scenes are in there, but watching the anime, you never really get the impression that there was suppose to be sex scenes.
Remember when Rin kisses Saber for no reason? And then makes Shiro take off his shirt, also for no reason? And then there were dolphin and shark hallucinations? That was a sex scene.
Apologies for quoting you twice in such quick succession but that hasn't happened in the currently airing TV version of UBW. So some people that are watching UBW and who haven't seen the 2006 adaptation might not remember the dolphins.
 

CaptainMidlands

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Bara_no_Hime said:
Scorpid said:
NOT being a fan of VN's and not being a fan of Fate Stay night I will say that my understanding is that Saber was suppose to be Joan of Arc and one aspect of Joan of Arc is that for religious reasons she remained a virgin so it would seem to me that any sex scene involving Saber would undermine her character. Also since this a VN its probably not porn as much as fan service which modern popular anime has a blight of atm. So for me yes it does.
Actually, Saber is NOT Jeanne d'Arc - she's King Arthur. Turns out that King Arthur was actually female (hence why "he" had so much trouble having children with "his" wife).

Jeanne d'Arc appear in one of the spin-offs, I believe.

Oh, and um "spoiler alert" - little late, I know, but I think the internet beat me to it.

Edit: OH! You may have been confused because the Tactical RPG "Jeanne d'Arc" ripped off its design for Jeanne d'Arc from Saber. So there are pictures of Jeanne d'Arc (from the game of the same name) that look an awful lot like pictures of Saber.
Joan d'Arc appears as a ruler class servant in Fate/Apocrypha summoned by the Grail itself to oversee the Greater Grail War (however this is in a parallel universe and it all gets very confusing)

The reference in Fate/Zero is due to Casters grail wish, which is to see Joan again and he mistakes Saber for her, this then isn't help by Sabers denial which he views to be a cruel trick of god and not you know he made a mistake like a normal person
 

Bara_no_Hime

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VanQ said:
Apologies for quoting you twice in such quick succession but that hasn't happened in the currently airing TV version of UBW. So some people that are watching UBW and who haven't seen the 2006 adaptation might not remember the dolphins.
**blinks**

Wait, they're currently making an Unlimited Blade Works TV VERSION?! But they just had that awesome UBW movie! Why stretch it out when they nailed it in 2 hours?

Also, I thought the next Fate anime was supposed to be Heaven's Feel! I feel robbed. Robbed and cheated out of Sakura Awesomeness.
 

[Kira Must Die]

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Bara_no_Hime said:
VanQ said:
Apologies for quoting you twice in such quick succession but that hasn't happened in the currently airing TV version of UBW. So some people that are watching UBW and who haven't seen the 2006 adaptation might not remember the dolphins.
**blinks**

Wait, they're currently making an Unlimited Blade Works TV VERSION?! But they just had that awesome UBW movie! Why stretch it out when they nailed it in 2 hours?

Also, I thought the next Fate anime was supposed to be Heaven's Feel! I feel robbed. Robbed and cheated out of Sakura Awesomeness.
It's a different studio, the one that did Fate/Zero. They're making a Heaven's Feel movie, too.
 

VanQ

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Bara_no_Hime said:
VanQ said:
Apologies for quoting you twice in such quick succession but that hasn't happened in the currently airing TV version of UBW. So some people that are watching UBW and who haven't seen the 2006 adaptation might not remember the dolphins.
**blinks**

Wait, they're currently making an Unlimited Blade Works TV VERSION?! But they just had that awesome UBW movie! Why stretch it out when they nailed it in 2 hours?

Also, I thought the next Fate anime was supposed to be Heaven's Feel! I feel robbed. Robbed and cheated out of Sakura Awesomeness.
It's by Ufotable so it's only going to be better. And so far they have delivered. Get pumped for their Heaven's Feel movie that's in the works too.