Do you consider Fate/Stay Night UBW censored porn?

[Deathmageddon]

I want you to go play Katawa shoujo. No seriously go play it right now http://www.katawa-shoujo.com/

A VN having sex scenes does not undermine its artistic value at all. Sometimes it can even enhance it. And the sex scenes in the original VN stem from special circumstances involving shiro as VanQ so eloquently pointed out above me. Either way the Fate series isn't censored porn because it works just fine without it and the series is fully able to exist free of its racier elements without losing much, if anything at all, in translation. Adult content doesn't inherently undermine characters nor does it have to define them. Even if the sex scenes were to make it into the anime proper it still wouldn't make Saber a porn character. Again I point you to Katawa Shoujo to make my point.

You judge a series or VN or anime by its merits and on its own terms. You look at the whole of a work to determine its artistic value, not just one part.

Thanks for the great response, but for various reasons I don't have the option of playing Katawa Shoujo. Do you think you could just tell me a little bit about why its explicit sex scenes are necessary and why the artistic value and quality of the game would be diminished without them? I'm fine with spoilers, of course.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

]It's a different studio, the one that did Fate/Zero. They're making a Heaven's Feel movie, too.

It's by Ufotable so it's only going to be better. And so far they have delivered. Get pumped for their Heaven's Feel movie that's in the works too.

Oh, thank goodness. I was scared for a moment there.

... who is Ufotable?

I didn't much care for the Fate Stay Night anime (too long, padded, and the weird stealing of elements from other paths) but the Unlimited Blade Works movie was pure spun awesome.

Fate Zero anime was pretty good.

 

[[Kira Must Die]]

]It's a different studio, the one that did Fate/Zero. They're making a Heaven's Feel movie, too.

It's by Ufotable so it's only going to be better. And so far they have delivered. Get pumped for their Heaven's Feel movie that's in the works too.

Oh, thank goodness. I was scared for a moment there.

... who is Ufotable?

I didn't much care for the Fate Stay Night anime (too long, padded, and the weird stealing of elements from other paths) but the Unlimited Blade Works movie was pure spun awesome.

Fate Zero anime was pretty good.

Outside of Fate, Ufotable is known mostly for the Kara no Kyoukai movies.

 

[VanQ]

]It's a different studio, the one that did Fate/Zero. They're making a Heaven's Feel movie, too.

It's by Ufotable so it's only going to be better. And so far they have delivered. Get pumped for their Heaven's Feel movie that's in the works too.

Oh, thank goodness. I was scared for a moment there.

... who is Ufotable?

I didn't much care for the Fate Stay Night anime (too long, padded, and the weird stealing of elements from other paths) but the Unlimited Blade Works movie was pure spun awesome.

Fate Zero anime was pretty good.

There's a list of Ufotable's work here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufotable

Like Kira Must Die said, their most notable works outside of Fate is the Kara no Kyoukai series of movies. They're set in the same Nasuvere as the Fate series and Tsukihime/Melty Blood. The Nasuverse is generally what people refer to the Type-Moon universe.

If you know of those series and enjoyed them (>implying anyone enjoyed the Tsukihime anime) then it might be worth checking out Carnival Phantasm which is a fun little gag-manga-esque OVA.

 

[NeutralDrow]

Uhhhhhh...I'm torn between answering the question or wondering if it would even be worthwhile to do so, since there's a couple of odd assumptions embedded in the query...oh heck with it.

No, the original VN does not "undermine" the artistic value of the franchise. It's the best expression of the franchise. Whichever anime you watch, you're only getting at best 1/3 of the story in total, no anime has yet adapted the best of the three game story routes, and they've all been flawed at portraying the major themes (especially when it comes to Shirou). I'm hoping the new Ufotable anime will rectify that a bit. Note that I'm not talking about Fate/Zero, that's a separate thing (it's adapted from a light novel, not the VN).

The adaptations are hardly "heavily" censored, for a game that's 50+ hours long, with seven sex scenes between 4-10 minutes long each (depending on reading speed), most of which are in the currently-unadapted route.

...okay, to cut it short, I'm assuming you're asking "are these anime associated with porn, and thereby tainted irrevocably," to which I'd say "no, but it wasn't even tainted in the first place." Fate/Stay Night handles sex pretty well for its story ('cept maybe in writing quality, but that's a different conversation). In fact, being a consistent prude is a pretty bad thing if you consider Kanon to be an equivalent comparison (I played the original, adult version; Fate/Stay Night's scenes had to be replaced, but Kanon's sex scenes were pretty much designed to be dropped like a hot coal).

]I haven't read the visual novel, so I can't say how relevant the sex scenes are in there, but watching the anime, you never really get the impression that there was suppose to be sex scenes. It never really feels censored nor does it really feel like it's missing chunks of story. The story seems intact, although I'm sure VN purists would say otherwise.

The story's perfectly intact, just missing the cuteness of one particular scene ("I can't return your feelings," huh, Saber? Riiiiggghht...), and arguably worse for having a Mana Transfer Dragon (though it replaced the threesome, so I guess it's a toss-up). And the UBW movie was endlessly enriched for including the dolphins instead of Rin's sex scene.

Also, I thought the next Fate anime was supposed to be Heaven's Feel! I feel robbed. Robbed and cheated out of Sakura Awesomeness.

If those other people are to be believed, our Sakura will take the limelight.

And when it happens, I hope they'll at least keep the sex scenes (at least one "mana transfer" scene and the "why don't we bang just because we're into each other?" scene) and just compromise by having them offscreen. I really do think the story loses something important when it replaces them with Sakura just drinking Shirou's blood every so often.

 

[EyeReaper]

You know, if pornography discredited artistic value, then I think the renaissance just got a whole less art-y.

And yes, I think the butt-touching in Fate/Stay Night was stupid. It came right the fuck out of nowhere, and Shiro is such a boring character that I don't really want to watch him empty his mana bar into Saber's witch cauldron, if you know what I'm saying. Does a couple of sex scenes make the VN less of art than a sex-free game, like Clannad? (Not counting the spin-off, of course) I honestly can't see how.

As someone else said, Katawa Shoujo is technically eroge in that there are sex scenes, but are also disable-able in the menus, And I will fight anyone to the death if they say that game isn't the pinnacle of art. KS kicked my feelings in the balls so hard that I vomited tears, and really, what is art other than a medium trying to invoke emotion?

 

[Deathmageddon]

First of all, sex scenes do not undermine the artistic value of anything. The quality of the writing or artwork is the only thing that matters. Plenty of high art involves sex, after all.

Thanks for the response, I just want to pick your brain a bit more. What do you think of the sex scenes in F/SN specifically? I haven't played the VN personally, but mana transfer via sex seems like a lame pretext to titillate the reader and force a sex scene, not good writing.

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Like Kira Must Die said, their most notable works outside of Fate is the Kara no Kyoukai series of movies. They're set in the same Nasuvere

THERE'S MORE MOVIES IN THE NASUVERSE?!

I'm kinda behind on the fandom news, apparently.

If you know of those series and enjoyed them (>implying anyone enjoyed the Tsukihime anime) then it might be worth checking out Carnival Phantasm which is a fun little gag-manga-esque OVA.

I loved Carnival Phantasm! I didn't realize it was made by a different group than the first anime.

Yay!

And when it happens, I hope they'll at least keep the sex scenes (at least one "mana transfer" scene and the "why don't we bang just because we're into each other?" scene) and just compromise by having them offscreen. I really do think the story loses something important when it replaces them with Sakura just drinking Shirou's blood every so often.

... really? The censored games have her drink his blood? That's just... sad.

 

[VanQ]

Like Kira Must Die said, their most notable works outside of Fate is the Kara no Kyoukai series of movies. They're set in the same Nasuvere

THERE'S MORE MOVIES IN THE NASUVERSE?!

I'm kinda behind on the fandom news, apparently.

Oh, you know the true end of Heaven's Feel where Ilya closes the gate and Shirou gets a new body from the "Puppet Master"? It's heavily implied that that puppet master is Aozaki Touko from Kara no Kyoukai. It's very cool following Nasuverse stuff and making connections.

 

[VectorSlip]

I want you to go play Katawa shoujo. No seriously go play it right now http://www.katawa-shoujo.com/

A VN having sex scenes does not undermine its artistic value at all. Sometimes it can even enhance it. And the sex scenes in the original VN stem from special circumstances involving shiro as VanQ so eloquently pointed out above me. Either way the Fate series isn't censored porn because it works just fine without it and the series is fully able to exist free of its racier elements without losing much, if anything at all, in translation. Adult content doesn't inherently undermine characters nor does it have to define them. Even if the sex scenes were to make it into the anime proper it still wouldn't make Saber a porn character. Again I point you to Katawa Shoujo to make my point.

You judge a series or VN or anime by its merits and on its own terms. You look at the whole of a work to determine its artistic value, not just one part.

Thanks for the great response, but for various reasons I don't have the option of playing Katawa Shoujo. Do you think you could just tell me a little bit about why its explicit sex scenes are necessary and why the artistic value and quality of the game would be diminished without them? I'm fine with spoilers, of course.

Sure Im happy to oblidge. KS is one of the best VN's I've played. Its essentially a story about a boy with a debilitating heart condition going to a school for the disabled and learning to cope with his disease and the world/people around him. Its a wonderfully heartwarming story with deep, complex characters with their own lives, hopes, dreams struggles and pasts and depending on which route you go through you get to experience all of this with each girl. You get to know them and eventually come to love them for who there are and what they go through and how they deal with it. The sex scenes are often the culmination of your feelings towards each other and blows tons of "proper" video game romances out of the water (Im looking at you DA2 point system) And not only are the sex scenes explicit but they often use them to expand on the characters themselves and their frames of mind. (This is especially apparent in the first scene with Rin)

Katawa shoujo is something that has to be experienced because I am not enough of a wordssmith to properly describe it and do it the justice that it deserves. The explicit nature of the sex scenes does nothing to take away from the characters or the story or the game as a whole in anyway and often enhances the experience. To dismiss a sex scene as titillation on the very grounds that is a sex scene is very wrong imo, especially when it comes to VN's. Because there are a great number of eroge that don't simply dump you into sex, but use sex as an extension for the relationships with your characters and they are in no way "not art" or lesser art for their explicit nature.

 

[NeutralDrow]

Like Kira Must Die said, their most notable works outside of Fate is the Kara no Kyoukai series of movies. They're set in the same Nasuvere

THERE'S MORE MOVIES IN THE NASUVERSE?!

I'm kinda behind on the fandom news, apparently.

Quite so, they've been out for a while. <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.304952-TYPE-MOON-Review-Anniversary-Kara-no-Kyoukai>I highly recommend the Kara no Kyoukai movies (they're actually adapted from an earlier work than Tsukihime). Really hard to follow without watching them multiple times (and preferably coming in with some background in the Nasuverse), but utterly gorgeous.

... really? The censored games have her drink his blood? That's just... sad.

The best thing that can be said is they at least didn't have to pull it out of their asses like the mana transfer dragon. Blood and semen being magical goes back to Tsukihime, and there's an explicit choice making them equivalent in Kagetsu Tohya.

But yeah. Not quite the same intimacy, and I have no idea how they handle Sakura's confidence boost (unless Realta Nua made Shirou a vampire fetishist).

 

[Bara_no_Hime]

Thanks for the response, I just want to pick your brain a bit more. What do you think of the sex scenes in F/SN specifically? I haven't played the VN personally, but mana transfer via sex seems like a lame pretext to titillate the reader and force a sex scene, not good writing.

First off, mana-transfer-via-sex is a classic part of Japanese and Chinese mythology. You will find the concept of mana (or ki) transfer via sex both in literature and in religion throughout the region.

As for the game itself, first of all I take issue with your belief that you can't titillate with good writing.

That said, there are some flaws in some of the Fate/Stay Night sex scenes. One issue is that the scenes are all translated (assuming you play in English) which lends a certain stilted quality to the affair. Another is that while the text might be well written and plot relevant, the game also includes images (being visual) which tend to be more explicit than the text. Normally that wouldn't be bad, but sometimes the images seem less sex-positive than the text.

So there you go.

As for plot relevance of the scenes, the Heaven's Feel route has the most relevant scenes (apart from the starting hallucination) because they are fully intertwined with the plot.

The scene I liked least was the one in Unlimited Blade Works route. Tsundres sex scenes are always kinda creepy.

I actually quite enjoyed the infamous "threeway" during the Stay Night route. Rin isn't being a creepy Tsundre, for one thing, and Rin is shown to be bisexual (and I always like well written bi characters).

 

[Funyahns]

Yeah a part of chi and building inner strength is not releasing semen. It is supposed to build your inner power up when you keep it. Also when having sex making someone else climax without finishing yourself is supposed to allow you to take some of their strength. I learned this stuff when I was taking Tai Chi class, teacher was from China and was amazing at Kung Fu and Tai Chi. So there is precedent for mana transfer through sex.

Heavens feel had like 3 scenes I think, which probably put it at a total of 15 minutes. So hardly what I would consider a porn game. If someone loves Fate/Stay Night they love the story.

 

[Deathmageddon]

Sure Im happy to oblidge. KS is one of the best VN's I've played. Its essentially a story about a boy with a debilitating heart condition going to a school for the disabled and learning to cope with his disease and the world/people around him. Its a wonderfully heartwarming story with deep, complex characters with their own lives, hopes, dreams struggles and pasts and depending on which route you go through you get to experience all of this with each girl. You get to know them and eventually come to love them for who there are and what they go through and how they deal with it. The sex scenes are often the culmination of your feelings towards each other and blows tons of "proper" video game romances out of the water (Im looking at you DA2 point system) And not only are the sex scenes explicit but they often use them to expand on the characters themselves and their frames of mind. (This is especially apparent in the first scene with Rin)

Katawa shoujo is something that has to be experienced because I am not enough of a wordssmith to properly describe it and do it the justice that it deserves. The explicit nature of the sex scenes does nothing to take away from the characters or the story or the game as a whole in anyway and often enhances the experience. To dismiss a sex scene as titillation on the very grounds that is a sex scene is very wrong imo, especially when it comes to VN's. Because there are a great number of eroge that don't simply dump you into sex, but use sex as an extension for the relationships with your characters and they are in no way "not art" or lesser art for their explicit nature.

I don't think sex should be thought of as the end goal in any relationship, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and continue assuming that the sex itself is necessary to the story. You still haven't made any case for why the sex scenes have to be explicit. I can't really think of any purpose showing people's genitals or explaining where the mc's dick is going serves that can't be conveyed in a way that's appropriate for a broader audience. Art should able to be appreciated by everyone, after all. It may not take away anything, but failing to contribute something is just as bad. It sounds like the story is wasted on the medium.

Plus if the mc's heart condition is bad enough for him to have to go to a special school, how he possibly be healthy enough for sex? -_- Is the sex a death flag lol?

 

[VectorSlip]

Sure Im happy to oblidge. KS is one of the best VN's I've played. Its essentially a story about a boy with a debilitating heart condition going to a school for the disabled and learning to cope with his disease and the world/people around him. Its a wonderfully heartwarming story with deep, complex characters with their own lives, hopes, dreams struggles and pasts and depending on which route you go through you get to experience all of this with each girl. You get to know them and eventually come to love them for who there are and what they go through and how they deal with it. The sex scenes are often the culmination of your feelings towards each other and blows tons of "proper" video game romances out of the water (Im looking at you DA2 point system) And not only are the sex scenes explicit but they often use them to expand on the characters themselves and their frames of mind. (This is especially apparent in the first scene with Rin)

Katawa shoujo is something that has to be experienced because I am not enough of a wordssmith to properly describe it and do it the justice that it deserves. The explicit nature of the sex scenes does nothing to take away from the characters or the story or the game as a whole in anyway and often enhances the experience. To dismiss a sex scene as titillation on the very grounds that is a sex scene is very wrong imo, especially when it comes to VN's. Because there are a great number of eroge that don't simply dump you into sex, but use sex as an extension for the relationships with your characters and they are in no way "not art" or lesser art for their explicit nature.

I don't think sex should be thought of as the end goal in any relationship, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and continue assuming that the sex itself is necessary to the story. You still haven't made any case for why the sex scenes have to be explicit. I can't really think of any purpose showing people's genitals or explaining where the mc's dick is going serves that can't be conveyed in a way that's appropriate for a broader audience. Art should able to be appreciated by everyone, after all. It may not take away anything, but failing to contribute something is just as bad. It sounds like the story is wasted on the medium.

Plus if the mc's heart condition is bad enough for him to have to go to a special school, how he possibly be healthy enough for sex? -_- Is the sex a death flag lol?

Well of course sex isn't the end goal of a relationship xD It isn't in KS either. Sex doesn't end the game or the point of the game. The point is fleshing out the relationship between Hisao and one of the girls and how that relationship affects both of them and their lives. Plus the explicit nature of the sex scene does not preclude other dialogue, especially in the case of KS and several other VN's I've played. Its not all "Ahn stuff it in my pussy! Harder!" basically and the sexual dialogue and situations are actually a lot more mature than that in KS. These characters can and do still talk to each other during, we still get to read about their thoughts and feelings. Again I point to the first scene with rin while you're having sex and in the context of her story arch you really feel the weight of the world she's be thrust into crashing down around her and it leads to one of the most powerful moments and defining moments of her story. This is a literal turning point in their relationship that determines what will happen to both Rin and Hisao going forward and that I implore you experience for yourself because one needs to have played through her story to get the context and fully experience the gravity of the situation.

Also you're getting into sticky territory. There is nothing that art "should" do. There are many things that it can do but it cannot and should not be limited by phrases like "Art should able to be appreciated by everyone". That said I fully and whole-heartedly believe KS can be appreciated by everyone and that includes its sex scenes. Its story isn't wasted on the medium, it is absolutely enhanced by it. Sex and sexual situations aren't always these immature things that people read for a giggle and a wank. They are tools that writers are fully capable of using to add to and enhance a work of art. And KS does this in spades

As for the MC's heart condition. Yes. There are actually several scenarios that end up with it killing him. It has a very real presence throughout the story and as you play various characters help you mitigate its effects. One such example is Emi (Our resident fastest runner on no legs and my personal favorite character) encouraging you to run and exercise (Also to take your medicine but who does that. Only nerds take their heart medication ^u^).

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

]I haven't read the visual novel, so I can't say how relevant the sex scenes are in there, but watching the anime, you never really get the impression that there was suppose to be sex scenes. It never really feels censored nor does it really feel like it's missing chunks of story. The story seems intact, although I'm sure VN purists would say otherwise.

Nah. The main reason for sex in the VNs is for mana transfer. Because of Shiro being a bad mage he can't supply Saber with mana like normal and so he has to do so physically. The explanation behind it if I recall is that the more intimate, the more efficient the mana transfer. So while a kiss will transfer some, full on sex is the best way.

In fact, Shinji uses a Command Spell in the VN to force Rider to have sex with him, despite his ability to transfer mana normally and despite it being against her will and it buffs her power quite significantly. (I can't wait for that Izanagi guy's thread on the matter if they reveal that in the anime)

Anyway, as for OP's question. Nah, it's not censored porn. The anime and the VN are seperate entities as far as I see it. The VN's sex scenes were there but besides the mana transfer stuff it was unimportant. Honestly, I think the story is better without them. Looking at how Fate/Zero handled itself I honestly think the Fate stuff is better when detached from the original VN which was written by a rookie.

hahaha, you have an issue with me don't you (this is the point when the cross vein is shown). Well

Spoiler

Rider is dead, she only really has a big part in Heaven's Feel from what I have researched and I will need more than just a statement to make a judgement, framing of the scene is important as well

Also, I didn't want to bring this up during my initial impressions but there have been some allegations of sexist writing or at least Nasu being a bit idiotic writing women (the Fate and Heaven's Feel routes are cited the majority of the time)

As for the main question, yes, in universe there is a legitimate reason for the H scenes but one route has me a bit disgusted

Spoiler

The heaven's feel route has Sakura's backstory filled with abuse and rape at the hands of Zouken and Shinji and while they do get their retribution, it still seems odd that Sakura would want to have sex with Shirou after what had happened. Granted, psychology is not my field of study and the interplay is probably difficult to understand but it seems unlikely

The rest of them, well given the fact that Reala Nua was able to work around them without issues and the fact that the Matou's worms were altered in Fate/Zero to be less phallic from their original designs, the erotic elements can be seen as extraneous.

Fate/ Stay Night is not one of those stories where sex is needed; most of the time, sex only enhances the story if it's a big coming of age romance or a story that questions the character's love for each other. the rest, it's just there for fanservice (and given how many versions of Saber there are, I would think that the sex is the least of our issues)

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

If you play Fate Stay Night for the porn you are in for a bad time. It takes around 50 hours to beat the game, there is probably 10-15 minutes of porn stuff in it. There is a ton of action and fighting and a little slice of life type stuff. I would consider the way mana transferred through sex to be canon, because in each of the three arcs the person he slept with he fell in love with.

Thankfully though you can turn the H-scenes off in some of the newer releases. They are pretty bland anyways and it kind of takes away from how interesting the story is.

there are a few playthroughs of Fate/ Hollow Ataraxia online and the one I watch has found two of the bonus h-scenes

for the sake of not getting banned, I will not be linking them but I will give you names: the youtuber is Rothran Agno and I will leave it at that

as for the question, main point is good writing and erotisism are not mutually exclusive but you have to work very hard to make sure they are not at ends with each other.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

NOT being a fan of VN's and not being a fan of Fate Stay night I will say that my understanding is that Saber was suppose to be Joan of Arc and one aspect of Joan of Arc is that for religious reasons she remained a virgin so it would seem to me that any sex scene involving Saber would undermine her character. Also since this a VN its probably not porn as much as fan service which modern popular anime has a blight of atm. So for me yes it does.

Actually, Saber is NOT Jeanne d'Arc - she's King Arthur. Turns out that King Arthur was actually female (hence why "he" had so much trouble having children with "his" wife).

Jeanne d'Arc appear in one of the spin-offs, I believe.

Oh, and um "spoiler alert" - little late, I know, but I think the internet beat me to it.

Edit: OH! You may have been confused because the Tactical RPG "Jeanne d'Arc" ripped off its design for Jeanne d'Arc from Saber. So there are pictures of Jeanne d'Arc (from the game of the same name) that look an awful lot like pictures of Saber.

Edit 2: Yes, I'm aware that she gets briefly mistaken for Jeanne in Fate Zero. But since that gets cleared up IN that anime, I didn't think it was relevant.

oh you have no idea about how ridiculous they play with that idea of King Arthur being female do you?

Let me introduce you to Fate/Apocrypha's Saber of Red, AKA

Spoiler

the killer of King Arthur and his "son", Mordred

Also, Jeanne d'Arc is the "ruler" class servant in that same spin-off

And to be fair, the real version of Fate/Zero's caster had gone a bit crazy in his lifetime

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

snip

Didn't you make a text review of Fate/stay night at one point?

Also, given the allegations of sexism or at least stupidity involving women thrown towards Nasu, I'm not sure how to think about his writing especially after seeing some of the lines during those scenes, they look like a 10 year old's idea of erotic speech (I want to vomit just from remembering some of the lines)

Also, I think we may need to make a encyclopedia on Nasuverse terms like "origin","Alaya","the Ultimate Ones","Akasha" and the like since, to be blunt, the whole universe feels like a chunnibyou's gigantic fanfiction made over all of high school when the dude was bored. And this is coming from a guy who actually can understand Toaru Majutsu no Index's convoluted symbolic magic system

edit: also, isn't Heaven's Fell considered kind of disgusting by some female readers and critics due to the framing of Sakura's actions?

I am going to regret doing this but Jesuotaku had said on the something awful forums that how Nasu tired to portray "the dark side of feminism" wasn't really that tasteful. I would try to find the post but it seems I need to register for the forums to search for it and it's probably buried deep at this point.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

An addendum to my posts:

Apparently, the main complaints about Shirou's "sexism" as people claim are found only in the Fate route due to his interactions with Saber and while I still think something about Heaven's Feel is off, I hear that Shirou is much better in UBW and HF and that the routes get better and better after that.

In addition, the lines said in Fate may be a case of poor writing rather than unintentional sexism out of a feeling of protecting Saber instead of any sexist ideals. Given what the situations are stated to be, I still think there are better ways of doing it but this issue lies on Nasu's talent and not any ideal system if this theory works out

on the other hand, there is this little nugget from the same critic I was talking about that explains the sexism argument

I really should stop talking about this or this will end badly