BlazBlue, Smash, SF, all games I love. Not so much ones with a 3d movement system. I don't know why, just don't get along with them.
That said, I love the Dissidia games. But they're nothing like what OP means by 3d fighters. They're more RPG hybrids with an interesting fighting system, high focus on spacing, dodging and tactics rather than Combos and a massive variety of character builds (you select which attacks to equip).
2D. The little of 3D ones i've played is an absolute clusterfuck of particle effects and the camera and spacing of 3D fighting makes it harder to tell if you're hitting or not.
I have played several 2D fighters, UMVC3, BlazBlue, Persona 4 Arena and Skullgirls in the 3D corner is... Soul Caliber 4. Yeah, not the best balance. I will say ring outs are fucking hilarious though. Especially any dive moves that can unintentionally ring out yourself with.
I still love the troll move of winning a round then during the last few seconds of movement, dive headfirst off the stage for no reason.
ArcSys has the 2D mechanics down well, I think Persona 4 Arena has the best balance of mechanics to date. Autocombos cost health and overall do relatively little damage, everyone has a move that relieves pressure but it costs health and spamming it is the fastest way to die (looking at you Shadow Labrys,) the passive Awakening comeback system is as fair as it is genius (I think they're continuing it in Chrono Phantasma with Overdrive) and every character is viable. Except Elisabeth. Elisabeth has some fucking MAJOR flaws.
Also BURSTS! EVERY 2D fighting game needs a Burst mechanic, it makes things way more fun. Seriously, if Skullgirls had a proper Burst instead of this shitty Infinite Protection System it would be really fun. Nobody likes being on the receiving end of 20 second combos, everyone has them and the community has found a way around the IPS so it never procs which ironically only makes touch of death combos worse.
Oh and when the IPS does activate, it's unsafe as fuck and if the guy has a combo that damaging he'll account for it and just block it. So it's not only worthless it's a free reset.
I understand with Elizabeth. You don't know how many times I've lost online matches due to my opponent constantly spamming ziodyne(though I have managed to get past it a few times but it ends up the same way after a few seconds).
You mean keeping you stuck blocking on the other side of the screen or just getting thrown back by it? Ziodyne has such a ludicrous recovery period if you block it, you can run up to her and destroy her because she is the squishiest thing ever.
Stop me if this sounds familiar, you get in range of her, she Shuffle Times you back then throws a Ziodyne to lock you up from fullscreen away. It's the basic keepaway tactic that every single Elisabeth does.
The trick is, the moment you pop up from the knockback, just as the Ziodyne is coming out you perform your instakill. She is now dead. By the second round you should be able to gauge how Ziodyne happy the guy is as well. Ziodyne spam is begging to be lamped by an instakill.
I've played so many games against Elisabeth though, I could write a book on how to deal with everything she has. She's really intimidating if you don't know how to deal with her, with her Persona making her untouchable and high damage combos.
As much as I respect 2D fighters, I find them remarkably boring. With only crouching block, standing block and spacing (and I guess throw teching), having to cover everything, offensive options feel limited in comparison to 3D fighters and in turn defending feels even worse (Marvel being the exception that proves the rule as, with it's offensive focus, the most effective defense is simply to attack first).
Stepping allows for so much more variety in attacks and gives defense a bit of risk/reward... Overall, it just creates deeper and more interesting gameplay. That's just my opinion of course, though I really cannot understand why they aren't more popular, and why Tekken, which is barely 3D, is the most popular.
Can't go particularly in depth on this topic really... it's more an emotional response rather than something I've investigated in depth. All I can say is, Soulcalibur is fantastic to me.
Each person can play the same character completely differently, and each character feels very different. It doesn't take a ludicrous amount of execution to pull off a basic combo and you don't need to reaction time of a damn house fly... I hate that by the way... 4-5 frame attacks and throws are so alien to me.
Oh, and also you don't have to exploit glitches introduced in games from 17 years ago that they've decided to keep for whatever reason, yet still the game doesn't even tell you exist. And now I'm being ridiculous...
I really want to get into a couple of 2D fighters just to understand why the audience is there but, they just aggravate me, and I get very bored of the characters and ugh... :/
Wow a fighting game thread where Wykydtron doesn't mention Blazblu and Hazama?
The Wykydtron said:
tonyh900 said:
The Wykydtron said:
2D. The little of 3D ones i've played is an absolute clusterfuck of particle effects and the camera and spacing of 3D fighting makes it harder to tell if you're hitting or not.
I have played several 2D fighters, UMVC3, BlazBlue, Persona 4 Arena and Skullgirls in the 3D corner is... Soul Caliber 4. Yeah, not the best balance. I will say ring outs are fucking hilarious though. Especially any dive moves that can unintentionally ring out yourself with.
I still love the troll move of winning a round then during the last few seconds of movement, dive headfirst off the stage for no reason.
ArcSys has the 2D mechanics down well, I think Persona 4 Arena has the best balance of mechanics to date. Autocombos cost health and overall do relatively little damage, everyone has a move that relieves pressure but it costs health and spamming it is the fastest way to die (looking at you Shadow Labrys,) the passive Awakening comeback system is as fair as it is genius (I think they're continuing it in Chrono Phantasma with Overdrive) and every character is viable. Except Elisabeth. Elisabeth has some fucking MAJOR flaws.
Also BURSTS! EVERY 2D fighting game needs a Burst mechanic, it makes things way more fun. Seriously, if Skullgirls had a proper Burst instead of this shitty Infinite Protection System it would be really fun. Nobody likes being on the receiving end of 20 second combos, everyone has them and the community has found a way around the IPS so it never procs which ironically only makes touch of death combos worse.
Oh and when the IPS does activate, it's unsafe as fuck and if the guy has a combo that damaging he'll account for it and just block it. So it's not only worthless it's a free reset.
I understand with Elizabeth. You don't know how many times I've lost online matches due to my opponent constantly spamming ziodyne(though I have managed to get past it a few times but it ends up the same way after a few seconds).
You mean keeping you stuck blocking on the other side of the screen or just getting thrown back by it? Ziodyne has such a ludicrous recovery period if you block it, you can run up to her and destroy her because she is the squishiest thing ever.
Stop me if this sounds familiar, you get in range of her, she Shuffle Times you back then throws a Ziodyne to lock you up from fullscreen away. It's the basic keepaway tactic that every single Elisabeth does.
The trick is, the moment you pop up from the knockback, just as the Ziodyne is coming out you perform your instakill. She is now dead. By the second round you should be able to gauge how Ziodyne happy the guy is as well. Ziodyne spam is begging to be lamped by an instakill.
I've played so many games against Elisabeth though, I could write a book on how to deal with everything she has. She's really intimidating if you don't know how to deal with her, with her Persona making her untouchable and high damage combos.
I'm guessing the book would be called " Things Krazykidd taught me about fighting Elizabeth". I will agree that Lizzy is flawed , but she's so much fun.
OT: i prefer 2d fighters. There's something about 3D fighting games that just confuses the hell out of me. That and they tend to be slower paced. I love UMVC3 so much because of how fast paced it is . And the speed of the match varies depending on the characters/strategy being used .
2D. I never got into the flow of how 3D fighters work, and even when I'm being coached by some of the best players in Norway, I can't get the timing of when to push buttons to punish or pressure properly, and I struggle to understand which moves to use at what point because I'm so used to "punishable move" meaning "you just got comboed to hell" rather than "you get jabbed for 10% of your health". The fact that TTT2 was my attempt to get into 3D games didn't help much either. I swear, that game is one of the most complex and demanding competitive games out there.
On the other hand, 2D fighters are something that I'm at the very least competent at, and something I play almost daily. If there was a bigger local community for King of Fighters XIII, I'd definitely be playing that as my main game, as that game actually makes sense to me. It flows so well, and the game is leagues easier to play than some people claim. Far more so than Street Fighter IV, which is deceptively complicated and doesn't have any characters I really like, but I still play it as it's still fun and has a lot of local competition.
Honorable mention to Soul Calibur 2 for being the best 3D fighter ever, though, and to this day one of my favorite fighters .Oh, and Divekick. And (obviously) Smash Bros. <3
The biggest problem with 3D fighters is that they pretty much don't exist. Tekken and DoA are pretty much 2D fighters with a bit of the z axis thrown in for funsies. Soulcalibur is the only true 3D fighter I can think of, and I love the current iteration. It's one of the few games where the entire cast is viable for tournament play. Even Dampierre can get you into top 8, although you would still have an uphill battle against a pro who's using Patroklos or Mitsurugi.
The thing that draws me to 3D fighters is the heightened complexity. For one, you can dodge moves with side stepping. Ring outs and wall combos, which are more deadly than corner combos, make it so you need spatial awareness of the stage. The severe lack of block strings makes it so you need to think out most of your attacks, instead of just spamming while your opponent holds down and back. The biggest part, by far, though, is that the moves are slower. That means that man of them are reactable, with the fastest moves being 10 frames out of 60, instead of the completely unreactable 2 or 4 frame moves most 2D's have. This actually makes the game faster, as you're thinking out every move instead waiting out a half second long block string or shrugging off those unreactable moves where even if they're punishable, they're so stupid fast you can't get the punish in.
The biggest problem with 3D fighters is that they pretty much don't exist. Tekken and DoA are pretty much 2D fighters with a bit of the z axis thrown in for funsies. Soulcalibur is the only true 3D fighter I can think of, and I love the current iteration. It's one of the few games where the entire cast is viable for tournament play. Even Dampierre can get you into top 8, although you would still have an uphill battle against a pro who's using Patroklos or Mitsurugi.
The thing that draws me to 3D fighters is the heightened complexity. For one, you can dodge moves with side stepping. Ring outs and wall combos, which are more deadly than corner combos, make it so you need spatial awareness of the stage. The severe lack of block strings makes it so you need to think out most of your attacks, instead of just spamming while your opponent holds down and back. The biggest part, by far, though, is that the moves are slower. That means that man of them are reactable, with the fastest moves being 10 frames out of 60, instead of the completely unreactable 2 or 4 frame moves most 2D's have. This actually makes the game faster, as you're thinking out every move instead waiting out a half second long block string or shrugging off those unreactable moves where even if they're punishable, they're so stupid fast you can't get the punish in.
Are we talking about 2D vs. 3D in GENERAL or a specific 2D vs. 3D game? Because depending upon that, it's a completely different answer.
philosophically, they're kind of apples to oranges for me. The big difference between 2D and 3D games that I see, beyond the extra dimension, really lies in the specific system implementations. The major difference that comes from that extra dimension really is a matter of areas of control. In a 2D game, generally you're looking to control area in a 2D space, and so when it comes to generating moves, it's actually slightly easier to manage the knowledge uptake, where as philosophically 3D games will require you to manage spatial control in an additional realm.
Now, here's the strange thing though, in games like say, Tekken or Soul Caliber, often times what ends up happening is that you DON'T actually end up having to manage spatial control in all 3 dimensions, but end up managing still just the X and Z axis, where as the height dimension is basically subsumed into the whole "low, mid, hi" implementation, which is ALSO present in 2D fighting games. So in the end, there are really not all THAT different.
In fact, most 2D fighting games I played tend to be HARDER for me because the execution requirements are higher, what with their being a lot more emphasis on hit box learning and far more button options to manage. 3D games like Tekken, on the other hand, tend to have a HUGE knowledge curve you must overcome. The execution requirements (especially as of Tekken Revolution) has actually really dropped off (though it is by no means negligible), but the knowledge you need in the form of knowing frame data, and match ups has become MASSIVE. Want to play Jin effective in TR? Go learn ALL of the combos that his standing 2,4 will beat first, and then learn all of the staple moves of each character so you know how to defend against each one, then you start to really play. It's a massive under taking.
As much as I respect 2D fighters, I find them remarkably boring. With only crouching block, standing block and spacing (and I guess throw teching), having to cover everything, offensive options feel limited in comparison to 3D fighters and in turn defending feels even worse (Marvel being the exception that proves the rule as, with it's offensive focus, the most effective defense is simply to attack first).
The severe lack of block strings makes it so you need to think out most of your attacks, instead of just spamming while your opponent holds down and back.
2D offence and defense are not as simple as you guys make it sound.
If the attacker catches an blocking opponent, he/she can go for high/low mixups, tick-throws, frametraps or pressure resets (such as, but not limited to, dash-ins, instant air-dashes, and super-slow-start-up-but-advantageous-on-block moves). If we're talking about Okizeme, then the attacker gains options like meaties, cross-ups/feints, safe-jumps and more. And if we're talking about mix-ups after landing a hit, then the attacker gains the option to reset, and in some games *cough* Skullgirls *cough*, resets are incredibly dirty/effective. The point is, you have many more options than going for the safe block-string and returning to neutral.
3D fighters have a lot of these tactics as well, but you have to keep in mind that 2D pressure can go on for quite a long time, which means the defender has plenty of work to do to escape pressure.
Momentum in 3D fighters is more easily stopped because moves tend to be disadvantageous on block and moves are slow to start up. Often times, blocking an attack in a 3D fighter diffuses an offense, while blocking an attack in a 2D fighter starts the attacker's offense.
I love playing Tekken and Soul Calibur, but I definitely prefer 2D fighters like Ultimate Mortal Kombat 3, Mortal Kombat 9, Super Smash Bros and Marvel vs. Capcom 2.
Momentum in 3D fighters is more easily stopped because moves tend to be disadvantageous on block and moves are slow to start up. Often times, blocking an attack in a 3D fighter diffuses an offense, while blocking an attack in a 2D fighter starts the attacker's offense.
That's not true at all! More options for defense allows for attacks to give advantage on block, their weakness being to stepping for example, but the act of doing so opens you up to different forms of attacks, horizontals.
But besides any of that, have you never heard of Viola... from SCV? The goddess of pressure I tells ya.
Pressure is almost my entire game in Soulcalibur. Across all fighters, I'm much weaker at defending than attacking, and it shows in the characters that I use and way in which I fight (and the games that I play). I'm attacking far, far more often than I'm not, and I'm able to do that very successfully.
I know first hand that momentum is not easy to stop in 3D fighters, certainly not in Soulcalibur, and I barely see it in 2D fighters myself beyond doing a few jabs and wakeup mixups.
When I first read the title I thought that the author was referring to games bound either to the 2D plane, or being able to fight in all directions. And I'd rather share my opinion on that. The only games I know that did free roaming combat right were the Budokai Tenkaichi/Raging Blast games and also the Naruto Ninja Storm series.
Momentum in 3D fighters is more easily stopped because moves tend to be disadvantageous on block and moves are slow to start up. Often times, blocking an attack in a 3D fighter diffuses an offense, while blocking an attack in a 2D fighter starts the attacker's offense.
That's not true at all! More options for defense allows for attacks to give advantage on block, their weakness being to stepping for example, but the act of doing so opens you up to different forms of attacks, horizontals.
Even in SF4, a 2D fighter with very limited defensive options, has plenty of moves that give the attacker frame advantage. Just because you have more defensive options does not necessarily mean you will have more frame advantage on your moves.
And anyway, because you have many options in 3D fighters, you have more options to escape pressure. I'm not saying it's easy, but in 3D fighters, momentum is more easily stopped.
But besides any of that, have you never heard of Viola... from SCV? The goddess of pressure I tells ya.
Pressure is almost my entire game in Soulcalibur. Across all fighters, I'm much weaker at defending than attacking, and it shows in the characters that I use and way in which I fight (and the games that I play). I'm attacking far, far more often than I'm not, and I'm able to do that very successfully.
I know first hand that momentum is not easy to stop in 3D fighters, certainly not in Soulcalibur, and I barely see it in 2D fighters myself beyond doing a few jabs and wakeup mixups.
I know of Viola and I have seen some Viola play. I do not doubt she is a great offensive character, but as formidable as her offense is, I doubt it's as oppressive as something like this:
5:06 - 6:23
There's definitely more to 2D pressure than a few jabs and okizeme. If you watch with a keen eye you'll see many offensive tactics from Sakura. Before she even lands her first proper hit, she put Rufus in plenty of (I see at least four) frametrap/throw mixup situations.
If you compare this match to 3D fighter match, you'll see a difference in how long momentum can be carried. Blocking is not as strong in 2D fighters as it is in 3D fighters. When you block, you're not really escaping pressure; you're just buying time to find an escape opportunity. You have to do something at some point.
If you want some seriously oppressive offense, here's Melty Blood, a game where pretty much every character is a pressure monster.
19:55 - 23:50
Look at how long Akiha's pressure lasts in the final round. Even after years of blocking, White Len is unable to escape. White Len has had to defend against so many (mainly frametrap/throw and high/low) mixups in that time. There were a few opportunities to escape, but Akiha kept her pressure so varied and unpredictable that White Len was too scared to seize those opportunities. Again, blocking only buys you time; blocking by itself is usually not enough to escape pressure.
1:00 - 3:06
In a 3D fighter, blocking a move/string is usually enough to get you back into the neutral game. Actually, defense in 3D fighters in general is quite strong. And because 3D defense is strong, momentum is stopped more easily, resulting in more "turn" exchanges between you and your opponent. Sorry for using a Tekken example; I'm much more familiar with Tekken than I am with SoulCalibur, but Look at the first match and you'll see what I mean. Offense comes in spurts. When an attack is defended, the attacker's momentum is often dispelled. And because of that, you can't go for mix-up after mix-up after mix-up after a blocked attack like you can in 2D fighters. The attacker loses his turn, and the defender gets some breathing room to make his play.
This almost "turn-based" play is definitely not a bad thing, though. In fact, this almost "turn-based" nature makes 3D fighters really interesting. A well known US Virtua Fighter player, LA Akira, once described VF as something of a turn-based game where you try to steal turns, through options like blocking, side-stepping, ducking and more, from your opponent. As someone who's played plenty of Tekken, and a little bit of SoulCalibur I feel that description fits those two games quite well, and I'm sure DoA is the same way. The 3D experience really is very different from 2D.
I dont know really I enjoy both 2D and 3D fighters a lot I suppose I tend to play more 3D though or rather Soul Calibur (any version preferably one or V) and DOA5U simply because my friends seem to enjoy them more and ofc the combos are quite short in those two games which they like as most of them dont really play fighters.
I did like Dissidia Duodecim a lot though even though I disliked Dissidia which makes zero sense which was a great 3D fighter in the non traditional sense and allowed full 3D movement.
2d fighting plane but 3d models. Tekken 3 will likely always be my favourite fighter ever, I'm not sure why but even more recent Tekkens have just failed to grab me.
It's a good question although a slightly difficult one to really get a feel for. You see, most supposed 3D fighters are really 2D fighters in disguise. There's very few truly 3D fighting games where freedom om movement is evident.
Take Virtua Fighter as the example. We'd all agree that it was an early example of what we now term 3D fighters, right? From this the likes of Fighting Vipers, Tekken, Soul Edge, Battle Arena Toshinden, DoA, Beatorizer (Sorry, Bloody Roar) and so on sprang, yes? Yet it wasn't until VF3 that the sidestep became usable enough to be important - until then you really were aping much of the spacial control of the 2D fighter, traversing along a single plane like fencers.
For me, a proper 3D fighter has to make the left/right movements significant in the combat and so few really do. (Must. Forget. ERGHIEZ) Plus, where do you classify Neo Geo stlye fighters with multiple planes like Art of Fighting and Fatal Fury?
Anyway, I'm sure you get what I'm driving at.
2D and traditionally animated is my preference (SF Alpha 3, Guilty Gear, KOF - stuff like that). I cut my teeth on Street Fighter 2 and although I have a soft spot for Tekken Tag Tournament and Soul Calibur I find that most 3D fighters revolve around blow, counter, MASH BUTTONS I reserve my hatred though for ANY fighter that requires you to hold a button to block, or worse, to use that block button as part of your combos. Guess I'm too used to holding 'away' for blocking - just feels more natural.
2d fighting plane but 3d models. Tekken 3 will likely always be my favourite fighter ever, I'm not sure why but even more recent Tekkens have just failed to grab me.
100% agree. After T3/TTT the Tekken franchise became very 'meh'. That said, get TTT2 - it has the distinct feel of earlier Tekkens but with the production values of a modern 3D fighter. Well worth a go.
I'm just no good at fighting games...anyway, Power Stone makes me think 3D fighting games have a lot more they could do when compared to their 2D counterparts. That being said though, there are more 2D fighters that I enjoyed more. Power Stone is the best example I can think of when it comes to 3D fighters but for 2D, there are games like Injustice, Mortal Kombat II and, 9; Guilty Gear...Blazblue looks awesome too...
I mainly play Tekken, but i really like VF as well. Soul Calibur is ok too. Generally i think they offer much deeper and more interesting systems than their 2D counter parts and the gameplay is at a speed that is much more friendly and inviting to reaction based play and counter play. Basically the 3D games shine when it comes to the defensive game and oki, while still having everything that makes a 2D fighter fun and interesting. Granted a game like Tekken Tag 2 is just too large to take in on a decent level. 45+ characters with at least 100 different moves each, all with their own properties. Fun game but way too complex as it is now. I think it was really refreshing when Tekken Revolution dropped with a MUCH smaller roster and a much stronger focus on the fundamentals, rather than the retarded 30-second combos from TTT2.
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