Do you prefer 2d fighting games or 3d fighting games.
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When I think of 3d fighting games Im thinking of having an x,y and z axis in movement like in tekken where you have left and right and you can also strafe around your opponent. I count free roam 3d games like power stone and dissidia as just that a 3d fighting game where you can move left ,right, forward and back but also let's you travel the Entire map.
You can find specific examples of offence like this in both I'm sure, and Tekken... I mentioned I hate Tekken, and that video shows many reasons why.Razentsu said:
I hate the little twitchy movements, there's barely any ability to step an attack. Attacks give you nothing even on hit, unless they allow for juggles afterward... King, early in that match, landed a pretty slow overhead kick and got punched for attempting to move afterwards... It's ridiculous.
I recall watching finals for Tekken 6, can't remember which tournament. Not only was Bob dominating everything, it was just little jabs... just jabs... for the whole match!
I hate Tekken.
Now the Street Fighter example was impressive, and I've seen Sakura do it to a lesser extent before (while this is probably due to the fact that I don't play or follow Street Fighter too often), but it's not something I see often and I've never seen it to this caliber, whereas I see this type of thing all the time in Soulcalibur because it's what I do. That description you gave does not fit the majority of my experience with that game.
I wish I had a video to counter you with, but unfortunately I barely follow any tournaments even for the games I like... though, I don't think such a thing has happened in any finals.
I suppose in the EVO 2013 side tournament finals, the Yoshimitsu demonstrates some basics. Combo into okizeme, usually doing a low kick that doesn't give advantage on hit, expecting a follow up and stepping out of the way, doing a quick punish and backstepping or attacking through their retaliation to that into another combo. It works a few times surprisingly, but he mixes it up a little in later games... that however is pretty much what you described earlier.
Unfortunately, the Viola he's against isn't... great? ...at pressure at least. There are a few examples of what she can do in there, but nothing special.
I don't think it's the best example... and the commentary is disgraceful. Ugh...
Its 2d of course. This genre of games was born 2d and it works well that way. Not that much in 3d.
The mechanics of 2d fighting game can't be faithfully transferred to a 3d world.
That means that for a 'fighting game' to work on 3d and not be broken,it has to change a lot.And the changes are so many that you could call that a different genre.
I remember playing one of the 3d Mortal Kombats and it was a mess. All that time spent memorizing special moves and combos, when to jump,when to block,turned irrelevant as the enemy would spam the sidestep button infinetly and avoid all attacks.
The matches would end with time ups and if you where not playing with a timer,it would be an endless draw,omg.
The mechanics of 2d fighting game can't be faithfully transferred to a 3d world.
That means that for a 'fighting game' to work on 3d and not be broken,it has to change a lot.And the changes are so many that you could call that a different genre.
I remember playing one of the 3d Mortal Kombats and it was a mess. All that time spent memorizing special moves and combos, when to jump,when to block,turned irrelevant as the enemy would spam the sidestep button infinetly and avoid all attacks.
The matches would end with time ups and if you where not playing with a timer,it would be an endless draw,omg.
That's just not true at all. If you understand what is going on there is activity constantly in the game shown here.The fact that you even refer to an attack as an "over head" shows how disconnected you are from Tekken. I'd agree though, if you don't understand spacing in Tekken it's just gonna look like they are twitching around when they are doing back dash cancels and wave dashes, and the attempts at finding gaps in the other players defense might look like it's all pokes, but there is so much more going on in that game that you just aren't seeing. Just look at the pressure from Hei and his electrics during the entire game.garjian said:
But in a sense i can agree, especially in TTT2 where you have to play extremely safe, because if you gamble and fail you'll go in the air and eat a huge juggle (the combo damage in TTT2 is just ridiculous imo). There is plenty of spacing going on, spacing and stepping attacks is a huge part of the strategy for any player. And you say king gets punished after landing a mid? I didn't see it but obviously you have to consider every move, if you try to move or attack when you clearly don't have enough of a frame advantage to do it you will get punished, and that's a good thing.
Depends on the game style. If it's all about careful moves then 3D in the style of Virtua Fighter 3. If it a crazy button masher then 2D like Marvel Vs Capcom. Why yes I do light a candle at the shrine of the Dreamcast every year....
I'm on the fence with this one. I love the old Guilty Gear games and the Soul Calibur games. However, I think the commands you enter in 3D fighting games mess up more than in 2D. Something isn't getting processed right sometimes. Soul Calibur IV and V have the worse problems with it from my experience.
Really? Never ever had any input problems with either SCIV or V. Most likely a problem on your end, not the gameItchi_da_killa said:
You could be right, I have thought of that before.Rutabaga_swe said:Really? Never ever had any input problems with either SCIV or V. Most likely a problem on your end, not the gameItchi_da_killa said:
I didn't say it was an overhead, I described it as such so you knew which attack I was talking about. I'm on the side of 3D fighters here, and I struggle to call Tekken one.Rutabaga_swe said:
Also I didn't say he was punished, I said he got hit for attempting to move afterwards. He wasn't rewarded for his slow, vertical mid on hit.
Also, regardless of what that twitching accomplishes, it looks terrible and is more difficult that it needs to be to perform. If the characters just moved at that speed fluidly, stepping might actually be an option.
I stand by everything I said, even though it's clearly exaggeratory. Tekken sucks balls.
Yeah and you are just making my point; if you think that Tekken is barely 3D it's because you don't understand the game. Side stepping/walking is a HUGE part of the game. It's not the games fault if you can't dash cancel properly, spacing and stepping is a perfectly fine option if you can double tap back, and then press down/up to cancel and then repeat with enough speed. It's not that hard.
Tekken is a huge and complex game, and it takes a lot of investment to play it at even a decent level (not saying i'm particularly good at it). The learning curve is ridiculous and i can honestly say that before i actually learned how to play the game, via a friend, i also thought that Tekken sucked. Once i started understanding how a move is set up and thus being able to judge what moves are good/bad and how the general mechanics worked, it switched over from being a string-heavy mash fest with slow movement to one of the most intense fighters ever.
As for the mid kick thing, if you do something you don't have enough frames to do you will get punished that's just how it works. Again i can't really find the moment you are talking about but i don't think there is a single move in the game that isn't safe on hit. If you land something and then get hit it's because you tried to push your advantage and got punished for it.
But hey, to each their own i suppose. If you don't like it that's fine, i just don't think your reasons are really true. Obviously the game has a ton of flaws. TTT2 basically turned me off from tekken in a major way with it's retarded combo length/damage and way too big roster. The balancing is iffy, as with all fighters, and there is clear tiering among the characters. Revolution just fixes a lot of the gripes i have with Tekken at the moment. I just hope they try to reinvent the series a bit for 7.
Tekken is a huge and complex game, and it takes a lot of investment to play it at even a decent level (not saying i'm particularly good at it). The learning curve is ridiculous and i can honestly say that before i actually learned how to play the game, via a friend, i also thought that Tekken sucked. Once i started understanding how a move is set up and thus being able to judge what moves are good/bad and how the general mechanics worked, it switched over from being a string-heavy mash fest with slow movement to one of the most intense fighters ever.
As for the mid kick thing, if you do something you don't have enough frames to do you will get punished that's just how it works. Again i can't really find the moment you are talking about but i don't think there is a single move in the game that isn't safe on hit. If you land something and then get hit it's because you tried to push your advantage and got punished for it.
But hey, to each their own i suppose. If you don't like it that's fine, i just don't think your reasons are really true. Obviously the game has a ton of flaws. TTT2 basically turned me off from tekken in a major way with it's retarded combo length/damage and way too big roster. The balancing is iffy, as with all fighters, and there is clear tiering among the characters. Revolution just fixes a lot of the gripes i have with Tekken at the moment. I just hope they try to reinvent the series a bit for 7.
to be fair though, tekken as a game is really overdue for a design overhaul. They have SOOO many counter intuitive design traits that really needs to be updated. i.e. back dash canceling, side step cancels, crouch canceling, etc. all of these are subsystems that just creates another input barrier for players and do NOTHING to make the game less dexterity intensive. And then you have things like Kazuya's mist step, which serves no purpose what so ever since everyone has side steps now. Really, a lot of Tekken characters can probably lose 70% of their moves, and the player base would probably not notice it.Rutabaga_swe said:
Sure, Kaz doesn't use his mist step. Lee does though. A lot.
Me being a nitpicking douche aside, i kinda agree and disagree with pretty much all of the stuff you are saying. First off, if you removed the cancels and dash cancels, what would you replace them with? How would you have the same amount of flexibility without having, for example, the back dash cancels? If you just have longer, faster back dashes that'd take away some of the flexibility that the really fast back dash canceling brings. It's just because it's so "twitchy" and fast that it allows you to step out of range, then quickly back in for a punish. At the same time i do agree that the less a player has to fight with the controls, rather than the other player, the better. But it's a balance. The advanced techniques offer a lot of depth, and i don't know how to solve it in a simpler way.
As for the moves list...well, yeah. All of the characters have like 20 or so bread and butter moves, that are just super effective but it really is nice to be able to bust out something unexpected at times as well. Played right, even some of those less useful moves can be handy. But hey, i certainly agree that most characters could have their move lists pruned significantly. No question about that. Don't know about your 70% figure though, i think that'd wreck a lot of the characters.
As for switching the game up, i certainly agree. The systems have been virtually unchanged since Tekken 5 now, with the addition of rage and bound in T6, so i agree that it'd be refreshing to see them go in and toss things around.
I think that what Tekken really needs is a serious tutorial. The Bamco people need to hire the Level Up Your Game guys to make an official in-game tutorial that covers everything from the basic controls and frame data to electrics and wave dashing. Maybe even small guides to each character. I know it's pretty much impossible but it would really help players understand the game. Then again, as i write this i kinda realize that most players who are serious enough to learn that kind of stuff most likely already has. The audience for a tutorial like that would probably be rather small.
Me being a nitpicking douche aside, i kinda agree and disagree with pretty much all of the stuff you are saying. First off, if you removed the cancels and dash cancels, what would you replace them with? How would you have the same amount of flexibility without having, for example, the back dash cancels? If you just have longer, faster back dashes that'd take away some of the flexibility that the really fast back dash canceling brings. It's just because it's so "twitchy" and fast that it allows you to step out of range, then quickly back in for a punish. At the same time i do agree that the less a player has to fight with the controls, rather than the other player, the better. But it's a balance. The advanced techniques offer a lot of depth, and i don't know how to solve it in a simpler way.
As for the moves list...well, yeah. All of the characters have like 20 or so bread and butter moves, that are just super effective but it really is nice to be able to bust out something unexpected at times as well. Played right, even some of those less useful moves can be handy. But hey, i certainly agree that most characters could have their move lists pruned significantly. No question about that. Don't know about your 70% figure though, i think that'd wreck a lot of the characters.
As for switching the game up, i certainly agree. The systems have been virtually unchanged since Tekken 5 now, with the addition of rage and bound in T6, so i agree that it'd be refreshing to see them go in and toss things around.
I think that what Tekken really needs is a serious tutorial. The Bamco people need to hire the Level Up Your Game guys to make an official in-game tutorial that covers everything from the basic controls and frame data to electrics and wave dashing. Maybe even small guides to each character. I know it's pretty much impossible but it would really help players understand the game. Then again, as i write this i kinda realize that most players who are serious enough to learn that kind of stuff most likely already has. The audience for a tutorial like that would probably be rather small.
Well my favourite fighting games are MK2011, Tekken Tag/6 and I really liked the SSB and PS allstars games, so a mixture of both.
well, 70% is just a figure I pulled out of my rear. But I think you get the sentiment.Rutabaga_swe said:
In terms of the BDC stuff, let's put it this way, the BDC is ALWAYS superior to a normal backdash. The same thing with sidestepping. There is really no reason to use the normal backdash except that it's easier to do, and that alone is really not a compelling argument. That's not depth.
How would you fix it is actually quite simple, give normal backdash BDC properties and remove BDC altogether. You can do that with a lot of the designs to streamline the game.
Also, Lee's mist step is actually useful.
Yeah but that's kinda the thing, how do you give a single input the properties of two inputs? The thing with the dash cancel is that you choose when to cancel it. Do you suggest you just have tiny fast back dashes or what? Then you'd have to tap teh backdashes like crazy instead, which at least for me, i think would be even harder. It's easy to say, but how do you mean they should actually implement it?gamer_parent said:
I'm a fan of both. Amongst my favourite fighting games ever are Super Street Fighter 2, Soul Calibur IV, Persona 4 Arena, Naruto Gekitou Ninja Taisen 4, Super Smash Bros. Melee and Bloody Roar: Primal Fury.
I don't play any fighting games at a competitive standard but I enjoy the different approaches, particularly the way attacking from different angles in 3D fighters can trigger different attacks whereas 2D fighters tend to have much more emphasis on the vertical - jumping and ducking.
I don't play any fighting games at a competitive standard but I enjoy the different approaches, particularly the way attacking from different angles in 3D fighters can trigger different attacks whereas 2D fighters tend to have much more emphasis on the vertical - jumping and ducking.
I can't stand 2D fighters, or most 2D games for that matter. Probably because I first started gaming with Mario 64 and never got into any older titles.
Also, 3D fighters rarely give characters projectile attacks to the matches don't turn into haduken fests.
Also, 3D fighters rarely give characters projectile attacks to the matches don't turn into haduken fests.
It all depends really. I don't mind arcade style fighters but its hard for me to get into them. Tekken, street fighter, and soul calibur I just have a tough time with. The controls and special moves just come off as hard to link up for me. Now people will accuse me of being unskilled or some such nonsense but I think I'm just not made for the control type if that makes sense. Now Blazblue and Marvel vs. Capcom 3 I can get behind and I'm actually quite good at them. Unless I go to any form of competition in which case I always get shattered in. Those 2 games took the arcade fighter and revamped the controls to be simpler and more approachable. Still plenty of depth to be had but you don't have to be a master to learn a few basic but pretty decent damaging combos. Also the sense of scale and speed attracted me to those. You can jump incredibly high I don't feel like I'm in a little box or that 6 ft high is as high as anyone can go. It just feels grander, more fast paced, and more exciting and open then traditional arcade fighters.tonyh900 said:
As for 3D fighters the ones in my library are all almost exclusively anime based games. Namely Naruto and DBZ (mostly cause not a single good Bleach game beside Soul Resurrection made it to the U.S.
). The over the shoulder view is awesome and more often then not a lot of love is put into the games to make them look and sound like they jumped straight off the TV. Though I think they are getting to the point where they are distorting what we remember of the shows. Like making it bigger and more epic then the actual episodes were.
2D, as I generally suck at 3D fighting.
On the other hand, I suppose it depends on how byzantine the control system is. I'd much rather play KOF Maximum Impact, instead of BlazBlue, as I am halfway decent with that game.
I grew up on Street Fighter, so it'll be interesting if Namco can convert me with their treatment (assuming it ever happens). I think Mortal Kombat is fairly accessible too.
On the other hand, I suppose it depends on how byzantine the control system is. I'd much rather play KOF Maximum Impact, instead of BlazBlue, as I am halfway decent with that game.
I grew up on Street Fighter, so it'll be interesting if Namco can convert me with their treatment (assuming it ever happens). I think Mortal Kombat is fairly accessible too.